Is it just me or has anyone else noticed...

[Walter Smith]

That's what I mean, with Sunrise.

Pied I believe is linked to Diffusion, so yes Lavender, Charcoal, Tessera, Caramel...etc can be Pied but when combined with Diffusion.

Gottcha. What about this??:

Ahhh, gottcha. So the white flecking is only manifested in SUNRISE MOTLEYS correct ?
Are there any Manderine Motleys that exsist and if so, do they display the white flecking ??

Just trying to learn something here.


Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[steve roylance]

Gottcha. What about this??:

Ahhh, gottcha. So the white flecking is only manifested in SUNRISE MOTLEYS correct ?
Are there any Manderine Motleys that exsist and if so, do they display the white flecking ??

Just trying to learn something here.


Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Not sure about Mandarin Motley? :shrugs: Would love to see an adult.

 

[Walter Smith]

Not sure about Mandarin Motley? :shrugs: Would love to see an adult.

Yeah, I don't recall ever seeing a posting for them, so I don't know if they exsist. Thought maybe you might have known if they are around or even as a adult.

It would be interesting to know if they (Manderine Motley) also display that "white flecking" If so, I would think that would say 100% for a fact that Sunrise & Manderine are one in the same.

Of course so far what you have gotten from your results, seems to show this, but if you could compare both of these in the Motley form and see that "white flecking" in both..........that would close the case for sure

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

Pied I believe is linked to Diffusion, so yes Lavender, Charcoal, Tessera, Caramel...etc can be Pied but when combined with Diffusion.

Yes, that is what I was saying and agree..........I have PS's in a few different color phases, and they are all visual Bloodreds.

Never have produced a PS that was not also homo Bloodred.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Chip]

For that matter, pretty sure I've never seen a sunrise stripe. I'd wager they develop white flecking as well. I have a DARK red sunrise (not motley) who had no white around her saddles until she was about 3 or 4. Then it appeared in the course of a few sheds. I'm not sure that isn't what is going on with the flecking on motley animals, at least they both don't seem to manifest until well after maturity. That's one of the toughest things about sunrise projects -it just takes *so* long to see if individuals are going to develop the white or not.

 

[steve roylance]

Yeah, I don't recall ever seeing a posting for them, so I don't know if they exsist. Thought maybe you might have known if they are around or even as a adult.

It would be interesting to know if they (Manderine Motley) also display that "white flecking" If so, I would think that would say 100% for a fact that Sunrise & Manderine are one in the same.

Of course so far what you have gotten from your results, seems to show this, but if you could compare both of these in the Motley form and see that "white flecking" in both..........that would close the case for sure

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I agree that it's been determined from this breeding we have Kastanie and Mandarin babies. What if a Mandarin Motley doesn't ontogenetically produce white flecking? What if it's another factor? Red Factor? Redcoat? Something else we haven't pinpointed yet? Something in mixing some particular genes together. All three maybe? There is still a lot to figure out regarding this.

 

[Walter Smith]

For that matter, pretty sure I've never seen a sunrise stripe. I'd wager they develop white flecking as well. I have a DARK red sunrise (not motley) who had no white around her saddles until she was about 3 or 4. Then it appeared in the course of a few sheds. I'm not sure that isn't what is going on with the flecking on motley animals, at least they both don't seem to manifest until well after maturity. That's one of the toughest things about sunrise projects -it just takes *so* long to see if individuals are going to develop the white or not.

Interesting Chip, so if I'm reading this right, a Sunrise can develope the white flecking and NOT be a visual Motley??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[steve roylance]

For that matter, pretty sure I've never seen a sunrise stripe. I'd wager they develop white flecking as well. I have a DARK red sunrise (not motley) who had no white around her saddles until she was about 3 or 4. Then it appeared in the course of a few sheds. I'm not sure that isn't what is going on with the flecking on motley animals, at least they both don't seem to manifest until well after maturity. That's one of the toughest things about sunrise projects -it just takes *so* long to see if individuals are going to develop the white or not.

Man this just gets more and more confusing. LOL! Well like I've been saying this gene is so variable, it's been fooling us a long time.

 

[Chip]

I wouldn't call it flecking. She just developed white around the saddles like most amels. I would have taken progression pics if I'd have known this change was coming. I have some photos of her around here somewhere... looks pretty much like a typical R/F amel. I've posted her before, let me dig...

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126100 -post 18.

 

[steve roylance]

I always go with my gut instinct. I'm gonna stick to my original suspicion that something is causing either the Sunrise to get redder or Kastanie/Mandarin to stay orange. At this point I'm not to concerned with Motley in the mix. My main goal was to see whether or not Sunrise and Kastanie/Mandarin were the same mutant gene. Orlando's "Mahogany" pics are a perfect example

 

[Chip]

In case you missed it, I added a link to the photo of the animal I was talking about. Rather than double post, I'll add pics of Orlando's mandarin and my amel sunrise to see side by side:

 

[Walter Smith]

What if a Mandarin Motley doesn't ontogenetically produce white flecking? What if it's another factor? Red Factor? Redcoat? Something else we haven't pinpointed yet? Something in mixing some particular genes together. All three maybe?

Very well could be, but then you would have two snakes (Sunrise & Manderine) both having a different genetic make up........which to me would not be the same.

Don't get me wrong Steve, your results definatly look like the pics. I've seen of Maderines & Kastanies.

It's just the "white flecking" thing that throwing me off :headbang::headbang:

I would think that if Sunrise & Maderine ARE the same, you would see this "white flecking" on Manderine Motleys as well...........just makes sense to me, but then again we are dealing with corn snakes..........LOL

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[steve roylance]

Very well could be, but then you would have two snakes (Sunrise & Manderine) both having a different genetic make up........which to me would not be the same.

Don't get me wrong Steve, your results definatly look like the pics. I've seen of Maderines & Kastanies.

It's just the "white flecking" thing that throwing me off :headbang::headbang:

I would think that if Sunrise & Maderine ARE the same, you would see this "white flecking" on Manderine Motleys as well...........just makes sense to me, but then again we are dealing with corn snakes..........LOL

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

The only problem with that is, it's like saying Butter and Caramel are not the same because they have different genetic makeup :shrugs:
The main mutant gene were concerned with is Kastanie itself which seems to be a form of "Hypoerythrism". No matter what we breed into it.

 

[Walter Smith]

I always go with my gut instinct. I'm gonna stick to my original suspicion that something is causing either the Sunrise to get redder or Kastanie/Mandarin to stay orange. At this point I'm not to concerned with Motley in the mix.

Sorry Steve,
I defiantly didn't mean to stir a pot I'm not eating from.

Just trying to gain some more knowlegde on something I don't have in my collection. Maybe help me determine if I would like to add it or not.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[steve roylance]

Sorry Steve,
I defiantly didn't mean to stir a pot I'm not eating from.

Just trying to gain some more knowlegde on something I don't have in my collection. Maybe help me determine if I would like to add it or not.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

No problem dude! The more questions we ask the better

 

[Walter Smith]

The only problem with that is, it's like saying Butter and Caramel are not the same because they have different genetic makeup :shrugs:

Well, actually they are not, but Very good point.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[steve roylance]

Well, actually they are not, but Very good point.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Dang it I know what I'm trying to say! LOL!!!

 

[Walter Smith]

Dang it I know what I'm trying to say! LOL!!!

LOL........I know what you trying to say too man :nyah:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[multicorn]

I have a mandarin motley adult, he has huge amounts if white I shall get a picture as soon as possible.
Can you post pics of the clutch Steve?? The non amel mutations they are showing high orange for hatchling kastanie. Maybe something there???

 

[steve roylance]

I have a mandarin motley adult, he has huge amounts if white I shall get a picture as soon as possible.
Can you post pics of the clutch Steve?? The non amel mutations they are showing high orange for hatchling kastanie. Maybe something there???

They do have more orange right at hatching. But at the same time I have Opals that have more pink than others, so it leads me to think maybe some red mask gene is at work?
I added a pic of a hatchling Kastanie.