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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed...

well here are the pics of two of our mandarins.

First pic is of the male mandarin motley 2011 and his daughter



The next two pics are close ups of the white on the male motley (these were not on him as a hatchling and have appeared as he has matured (as does the white on sunrise)





I do think one issue that could make this a little tricky is Sunrise has a varied amount of 'white expression' at maturity..
 
multicorn said:
well here are the pics of two of our mandarins.

Martin,
Those are some nice looking animals you got there. Lots of good stuff in this thread!

That does look like a Tangerine Motley (Amel version of a Java). I hoping Don proof that out (Kastanie x Java).

Cheers,
Orlando
Click to expand...
 
multicorn said:
well here are the pics of two of our mandarins.

First pic is of the male mandarin motley 2011 and his daughter

The next two pics are close ups of the white on the male motley (these were not on him as a hatchling and have appeared as he has matured (as does the white on sunrise)

I do think one issue that could make this a little tricky is Sunrise has a varied amount of 'white expression' at maturity..
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the pics.
This very well seems to be the difinitive answer to your findings Steve !!!!

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Here is a pic of our Mandarin Motley female. Hope it helps. She is also het caramel
 

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The_Saiyajin said:
Here is a pic of our Mandarin Motley female. Hope it helps. She is also het caramel
Click to expand...

Hi Chris
your mandarin Motley, how old is she??? also there are a few white flecks on her are they small scale markings/bent scales or are the small amounts of white in a similar style to mine ????

Does anyone else have a mandarin or kastanie with white expression????
I will check a few of my other bloodline kastanie tomorrow (most are in brumation)
 
Thanks a lot steve

Martin, on this pic she was around 2 1/2 years old. She is a 2010.
Didnt changed much through, but I can make a newer pic is you like.
But I have seen a lot mandarins and mandarin motleys with this white like yours. Its common that some mandarins have this "washed out" look.
 
The_Saiyajin said:
Thanks a lot steve

Martin, on this pic she was around 2 1/2 years old. She is a 2010.
Didnt changed much through, but I can make a newer pic is you like.
But I have seen a lot mandarins and mandarin motleys with this white like yours. Its common that some mandarins have this "washed out" look.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all your information. Much appreciated!!
 
You are welcome mate.
Maybe I can add some mandarin Tessera stuff to this threat in 2014.
Sunkissed Mandarin will come, if murphy didnt fkd up, so I can shoot some pics right of the egg for this threat.
 
The_Saiyajin said:
Thanks a lot steve

Martin, on this pic she was around 2 1/2 years old. She is a 2010.
Didnt changed much through, but I can make a newer pic is you like.
But I have seen a lot mandarins and mandarin motleys with this white like yours. Its common that some mandarins have this "washed out" look.
Click to expand...

yes Chris it's usual to see this speckling on mandarin motley's. It's going to be interesting to see what happens now over the next few years...
I also have a few Kastanie, Amel/sunrise projects coming through this year so remaining or joining up is going to be tricky hahahahahaha !!!

Any thoughts Steve ???
 
multicorn said:
yes Chris it's usual to see this speckling on mandarin motley's. It's going to be interesting to see what happens now over the next few years...
I also have a few Kastanie, Amel/sunrise projects coming through this year so remaining or joining up is going to be tricky hahahahahaha !!!

Any thoughts Steve ???
Click to expand...

I have some Kastanie projects for next season as well as Sunrise. It'll be cool to see what happens when we start mixing everything!
 
I always read this type of thread with a lot of interest, but rarely add anything because I usually figure the people with way more experience than me know what they are talking about and I'd just be guessing wildly.

However, in this thread, there seems to me to be an obvious possibility that I did not see mentioned. Perhaps they are not the same gene, but are allelic? Couldn't this account for some of the similar-but-different expressions?
 
I think Sean meant to post this here, so I am quoting him, because I was discussing this with Jarrett Kime this weekend.

vmsherp said:
I'll stick my two cents in here (something I rarely do on forums) and add a couple thoughts.

First, I've been working with the Sunrise Amel Motleys for a while now and have recently proven it to be compatible with my early Snowflake line. (These are white speckled Aneries of normal pattern type). So I'm dropping the Snowflake name convention here as Sunrise has date precedence and I'm folding all my Snowflake project snakes in under the Sunrise label.

Second, none of the snakes (a few colors, including normals) from my various Sunrise/Snowflake projects have looked like Kastanies at all to me.

Third, the few adult Mandarins (Amel Kastanie) I've seen really don't look like Sunrises in and of themselves.

Thus it may be wise to consider we are looking at two different mutations which are allelic (residing at the same locus). Hence it would be wise to label the two lines separately as Sunrise and Kastanie and combos as Sunrise-Kastanie. This would allow owners to sort out what they have in future years/generations once this gets sorted out definitively.
Click to expand...

My question is:

I saw some coppers this weekend. The male looked EXACTLY like my rosyblood, Fred. Well, except for the belly. The coppers have checks, Fred, bloodred, does not. So now we know rosyblood is kastanie blood, right? And so a rosy rat is kastanie? Although they came to light both in Europe and the US, and aren't exactly the same, couldn't the divergence be caused by all the generations that they were separated? So I was wondering if copper was kastanie, and they were just naturally separated, geographically. I know there were breeding trials, but they weren't definitive, I don't think. I'd think you'd get a bunch of normals, not a bunch of snakes that look like halfway between kastanie and copper.

Anyway- so I was thinking, I don't think mandarin and sunrise look identical, as adults, either. But could this be explained by a separation of populations? The sunrise animals stayed here, and the mandarins were over in Europe, until recently?
 
I've been discussing this with a member on another forum, and it's been asked here and there if it could be that the genes present are alleles? Yes this could very well be the case. It was also noted by the member that Sunrise always (as adults) have deep red color saturation. Well here is a pair of Bell Sunrise breeding and the original project pair Kastanie X Sunrise. Notice both females do not have the red color saturation "typical" of Sunrise. Even in the clutches I hatched they are extremely variable in the amount of red they developed.

So any further thoughts or ideas would be appreciated!
 

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