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Just what we need.....

Thanks for putting this in general chit chat, it allows me to post..... LOL.
I don't know how relevant this is for you, but here goes....
A few years ago in the UK, a breeder of carpets decided to sell up and move on...
He set the Carpet python prices for the year, every year. When he sold up we bought his entire breeding stock and followed his prices.... This year we produced early and set our prices for hatchlings, and other breeders followed our lead.. We set the prices higher than normal, a price we felt reflected the worth of the animals..
I know our market is far smaller than your market, but things can change and will change.
Rich will no longer be a player in the price of animals, so next year or the year after you will be given the choice of what they are worth..... With a bit of luck....
 
I get the frustration of not selling, but RichZ isn't the only person changing their gameplan to make sales. I've seen dozens of breeders lower their prices to make ends-meat and I don't think that's going to up and change as soon as Rich retires. Don't get me wrong he is by far the best, but Bekers sold a pair of Gold-dust Stripes for 250$, and I see other crazy deals all the time on kingsnake.com. Yes, some can't be trusted, but a few are just great deals. I saw a pair of hypo-lav's 66% het. stripe for 150$ shipped, and that's not uncommon either. Just my opinion, but I wouldn't wait too long to realize prices are just reducing overall. It's hard to do, but I would try some new sales prices/idea's to attract more customers. In the end people just can't afford not to be taking these other breeders up on their offers. Don't get me wrong, but I could not justify paying some of the prices you have when I know there's better deals out there. Sounds harsh, but as a consumer that's just how I feel. Best of luck with your sales and I hope your business picks back up again soon!!.
 
snakewispera snr said:
Thanks for putting this in general chit chat, it allows me to post..... LOL.
I don't know how relevant this is for you, but here goes....
A few years ago in the UK, a breeder of carpets decided to sell up and move on...
He set the Carpet python prices for the year, every year. When he sold up we bought his entire breeding stock and followed his prices.... This year we produced early and set our prices for hatchlings, and other breeders followed our lead.. We set the prices higher than normal, a price we felt reflected the worth of the animals..
I know our market is far smaller than your market, but things can change and will change.
Rich will no longer be a player in the price of animals, so next year or the year after you will be given the choice of what they are worth..... With a bit of luck....
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are missing my point. My post is not about the prices Rich had for his retiring, my post is about someone who purchased alot of Rich's stuff and apparently spent more than they should have and are CONTINUING to offer these high end cornsnakes for REDICULOUS low prices......it's hurting the breeders who have spent years working on these projects to produce these high end morphs and having to sell them a these low prices becuase someone decided they spent to mush $$$ in Daytona and now need to try and recoupe it.

Once Daytona was over the prices Rich had should be over as well, seeing his prices were that low ONLY because he is retiring. If would have not retired you would have NEVER seen those prices that low. If they are carried on and continued by another breeder, who actually didn't even produce the snakes and plans to stay in this hobby......well, it's killing the prices of those high end morphs.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Walter Smith said:
I understand what you are saying, but I think you are missing my point. My post is not about the prices Rich had for his retiring, my post is about someone who purchased alot of Rich's stuff and apparently spent more than they should have and are CONTINUING to offer these high end cornsnakes for REDICULOUS low prices......it's hurting the breeders who have spent years working on these projects to produce these high end morphs and having to sell them a these low prices becuase someone decided they spent to mush $$$ in Daytona and now need to try and recoupe it.

Once Daytona was over the prices Rich had should be over as well, seeing his prices were that low ONLY because he is retiring. If would have not retired you would have NEVER seen those prices that low. If they are carried on and continued by another breeder, who actually didn't even produce the snakes and plans to stay in this hobby......well, it's killing the prices of those high end morphs.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
Click to expand...
No I saw your point, Walter..... I just gave you a scenario that although not the same, was slightly similar...
Rich is going.... That person will eventually sell all unrequired stock, and the market can be carried on with or re set....
 
It's like they say about Vegas, what happens in Daytona, stays in Daytona

Well, what happens in either place usually results in a later prognosis.

I was kind of suprised most of the other corn/snake breeders didn't buy out everything on his table. They could have doubled their investment bucks and still sold it for half of Rich's website prices.
 
Ricky87 said:
I get the frustration of not selling, but RichZ isn't the only person changing their gameplan to make sales. I've seen dozens of breeders lower their prices to make ends-meat and I don't think that's going to up and change as soon as Rich retires. Don't get me wrong he is by far the best, but Bekers sold a pair of Gold-dust Stripes for 250$, and I see other crazy deals all the time on kingsnake.com. Yes, some can't be trusted, but a few are just great deals. I saw a pair of hypo-lav's 66% het. stripe for 150$ shipped, and that's not uncommon either. Just my opinion, but I wouldn't wait too long to realize prices are just reducing overall. It's hard to do, but I would try some new sales prices/idea's to attract more customers. In the end people just can't afford not to be taking these other breeders up on their offers. Don't get me wrong, but I could not justify paying some of the prices you have when I know there's better deals out there. Sounds harsh, but as a consumer that's just how I feel. Best of luck with your sales and I hope your business picks back up again soon!!.
Click to expand...

Again, this is not about me not getting sales because I'm up-holding my prices. I guess the consumers are loving these rock bottom prices, but they don't realize, after two years pass and they finally produce these animals, they won't even be able to get the rock bottom price they paid.

If this continues, the cornsnake market will eventually crash like the Ball Pythons................mark my words.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
There isn't an endless supply... for now. Rich's table was surrounded for two days, and most were other breeders. The thought was, "Get them off the market so my high end stuff stays high end", but how is it any different then all the people on their cell phones receiving PayPal from friends to get the same deals. You already have to figure this year is a wash, as Rich has always set most of the Corn prices. How many of us waited in anticipation of his price list so we could set ours a bit lower? What will happen in three years when the hundreds upon hundreds of this years customers breed their "Daytona" snakes? That's a whole lot of snakes missing the one entity to set that years morph prices... I think this whole discussion will be rehashed then.
I was bummed I didn't do well at Daytona either, but will I reduce my prices because of it? Nope. Luckily, I specialized in the one morph Rich doesn't have, so my prices will remain the same. I even went back through my clutches and picked out more keepers, because in three years when the market is flooded with all these other morphs, mine will retain their value. Hmmmmm, maybe I should raise my prices.... ;)
 
CaptBogart said:
How many of us waited in anticipation of his price list so we could set ours a bit lower?
Click to expand...

Joe,
EXACTLY, the key words here are 'A BIT'
but don't continue to sell at Rich's retirement prices..........that is what will hurt the future prices of cornsnakes.

I don't understand why people can't see what I'm trying to say here.

This has nothing to do with me not making sales, or the fact that Rich priced his animals as low as he did...............

This is totally about NOT CONTINUING selling our corns at Rich's retirment prices and have some pride in the years of work we all do to produce those special high end morphs.

Hell, I could set my prices at $50 ea. across the board and start getting a ton of sales, but to me the time and effort I put forth to produce the snakes I do is worth more than that to me, not to mention the respect that would be lost by other breeders who spend the same time and effort.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Walter Smith said:
I don't understand why people can't see what I'm trying to say here.
Click to expand...

There are two parts to every market...the consumer and the seller. The consumer sees these low prices as awesome and provides him/her the opportunity of instantaneous gratification. The seller on the other hand has the wisdom thru experience to understand the effects of sharp market drops in value.

Sales are one thing; permanent reductions quite another. Time is the secret ingredient...the length of time something is on sale increases the probability of reducing its overall ability to recoup it's original value.

Until the consumer becomes the seller he/she never fully becomes aware of just how much he lost on that great deal he got a few years ago...especially when it comes to livestock. He wasn't/isn't the only one who took advantage of that great pricing. Now he finds himself in a position where everybody has what he has for sale and there's no demand for the product.

If a deal's too good to be true, there's often a behind the scenes reason for it.

Ruth
 
Walter, Serious question.

Even before Daytona, how many cornsnakes did you sell that were $200 or more this year? The economy is affecting everyone, and if anyone wanted the highend stuff from Rich, they likely got it from Daytona already. I doubt the person you are referring to will make many sells. Don't get me wrong, I hope he does, you and me as well, but the market today really is not going to allow for the sale of high end morphs at high end prices right now. I wish it was not happening, but it is what it is.
 
Walter Smith said:
If this continues, the cornsnake market will eventually crash like the Ball Pythons................mark my words.
Click to expand...

Is there something wrong with this? As more people obtain a morph and start working with it, the prices go down... supply and demand.

I am one who really, truly, does not understand what you are trying to say.... you cannot expect butter stripes to sell at $300 per each forever... you certainly cannot expect Tesseras to sell at $1200 per male forever... eventually suppply will rise, demand will drop, and the price will level.....
 
I'll preface this with a phrase I hate: I don't have a dog in this hunt. And I'd also like to add that I haven't deleted any threads lately. Since the condition of the corn market has no impact on me at this point, I guess I can afford to be objective (in at least two senses of the word "afford"). Rich did what he had to do, and other will do what they have to do. I don't know the identity of the re-seller who's being referenced. Maybe they overextended themselves in their investments. Happens all the time. Sometimes you have to settle for breaking even to get yourself out of a spot. Would the situation be much different if the re-seller had already settled on a mere 15 or 20% profit projection and stuck to it? I'm not ideologically opposed to cartels, but there isn't one for corns anyway. I thought Joe (Capt. Bogart) made some great points about the "backroom" dealing that probably affects the corn market more significantly than just about any other factor.
 
I think in this case these reduced prices are for a limited amount of time in limited numbers anyway which is not the end of the world or doing any damage to the corn snake market on the whole. Morphs loose value as they become more common as it is and because corn morphs are over produced they "seem" to loose value faster than other reptiles anyway. I know it takes years to raise a snake up, produce hets, and finally create the end result which isn't cheap and is a huge dedication of time, but thats how it has always been. You can't ever resell an animal for what you purchased it for which is why you breed to recoup these cash-flows in other ways. This sale will be short and sweet Walter- I know the market is bad, but in time things will get better:)
 
Walter Smith said:
I don't understand why people can't see what I'm trying to say here.

This is totally about NOT CONTINUING selling our corns at Rich's retirment prices and have some pride in the years of work we all do to produce those special high end morphs.
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying, prices as a whole dropping due to a flood in high end morphs at rock bottom prices, but what's "high end" now, won't be tomorrow anyway. What we do in the following years will determine how the market develops.
The market may drop out of a particular morph, but really, is that where you drew the line? I'm going to produce these for the rest of my life? Nope, we control the market, and I'm sure there are already different versions of the ones being sold at "retirement prices" coming out in the next few years rendering today's snakes as common. Just because you just bought a Sunkissed Lavender for $150, doesn't mean you're going to get one of my Sunkissed Opals for that price next year, in fact they're going to be quite expensive, and if you want one you can use your SunLav hatchling and make your own in six years or buy one now for instant gratification. That's what keeps the market from becoming stagnate.
Imagine my surprise when I walked into my local reptile shop and found Ambers, Butters, and Lavenders in with the Amels, Anery's, Ghosts, and Snows... and for the same price... it wasn't that long ago when Lavender was the must have morph and prices reflected that... Now you can get all kinds of Lavender morphs, but the original Lavender is now considered a common.... a by product for those making double, triple, and quad gene morphs...
 
mike17l said:
Walter, Serious question.

Even before Daytona, how many cornsnakes did you sell that were $200 or more this year? The economy is affecting everyone, and if anyone wanted the highend stuff from Rich, they likely got it from Daytona already. I doubt the person you are referring to will make many sells. Don't get me wrong, I hope he does, you and me as well, but the market today really is not going to allow for the sale of high end morphs at high end prices right now. I wish it was not happening, but it is what it is.
Click to expand...

Mike, actually, I sold quite a few the were $200 and more. The thing that I'm trying to get across, is if you have a snake priced at $200 and it's not selling just yet, don't drop the price publicly by 75% of it's value just to sell it.

What happened to everyone's thoughts earlier in the year of holding onto these higher end animals for when the economy does come back and people will have the money to spend on higher end stuff??
That's what I was told by numerous people.

If you drop prices by 75% of thier value now, just because the economy is down, then when the economy does come back up people are going to expect that 75% drop in the original price to now be what they are worth.

I give up. I'm trying to explain that selling high end snakes for example Sunkissed Lavender $150, Golddust Stripe $100 etc... is hurting those that spent 2 - 4 years producing these and the actual value of these snakes.

Yeah, Rich did it and AGAIN ONLY BECAUSE HE RETIRED. You would have NEVER seen those prices if he was still planning to breed for another 5 years. Those prices would have been $1000 or more for those morhps.

You think when the economy does come back up, people are going to spend more than the $150 & $100 for those snakes just because the economy is better???

No and anyone who thinks that is crazy.
All these people who bought Sunkissed Lavenders for $100 at Rich's table this year will probably not get even that much for them in a year or two when they finally produce them, even if the economy is great.

If the economy is not going to allow for high end snakes to sell at their value price right now, then hold onto them until it does.....simple.

If you absolutly need to get rid of them and blowing them out a rediculous prices is the way to move them, do it privatly where those prices are not seem by the public. All that does is set new future below value prices.
 
Walter, one snakes value to you will be completely different to someone else. People will only pay what they think a snake is worth.

I understand your argument, and I understand why you are peeved. I get it... I do.

But in all honesty, who is one person or well one breeder to set the bench mark and publicly dictate what the worth of one particular animal/morph is?

Should breeders not be setting the prices based on the buyers and what they can and can't afford. After all... it's just snakes.

For example I think CB candoia are worth hundreds for the time and effort put into establishing babies and considering the difficulty in keeping them alive. But I know buyers don't want to pay hundreds when they can get WC for pennies.... Taking this into consideration I would be one of these people to shoot myself in the foot and hold my ground and accept nothing less than my original asking price. Whether I sell those babies or not is another question. I just know know that whoever has the money to buy them knows what they are, feels they are worth the same as me and will enjoy them as much as me...
 
Very sad day.

Maybe I'll just price everything I have available for $50 - $100 from here on out and do what I have to do too.

Hell, I'll have Sunkissed Opals in the very near future, I guess $100 ea. for those won't be to bad of a price to get for those huh? :shrugs:

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
I'm done.
 
Water, don't be all woe is me. It's understandable you are miffed, but sunkissed opal stripey glitterbumfluff corn snakes are only of any value to those who know what they are! And that in the grand scheme of things is not that many people. How many of that small percentage of keepers do you actually think could afford a price tag nearer the 4 figure range right now with the current economic state? I don't see that much of a difference between the "powder" and a blizzard of the same age, yet look at it's price tag. I'm not saying that animal is not worth that to someone out there, but it's definitely not to me.

I am shocked that a sunkissed lav is going for $150. To me that animal is worth sooooo much more. Heck, lavender stripes are tripple that price (from some sellers) in the UK nevermind sunkissed combos...
 
I don't have a moratorium on hindsight, in fact quite the contrary....I think anyone could've seen the Daytona expo going the way it did....from the moment Rich announced his retirement and price reductions, earlier in the year. And I shuddered for the rest of the vendors when this was confirmed by phone from the floor of the expo.

But Walter, and this is mainly for you, I can't afford your snakes yet, but have made a mental note that one day (next year?...before?) I will. Because of the beauty and quality that they are. I think I represent at least one demographic, with some disposable income, and loving the hobby, but unsure/unlikely ever to be producing and selling snakes. Yes, I have pairs, as many know. And yes, I bought from Rich before the expo, and via phone at the expo.

However, I have not forgotten the mental notations I've made to one day be buying from you and Rob and Louise (Bayou Reptiles)....producers of beautiful high end morphs. And I have indeed bought this season $200+ morphs, and for that price. Not yet $400 or $500 morphs (for that price), but the time will come when I feel confident enough about my husbandry to buy a hatchling at that price. Your buyers (like me) may not be there yet, but we are getting there, so don't discount/underestimate us.

So don't give up hope (in general), every day a new potentiality enters the hobby. For some weird reason, I counted, and 99 new people registered on the forum from Aug 1 to Aug 28. (Not a discouraging thing.) With the economy the way it is, and Serpenco/Rich, this was destined to be an...awkward...year. But I believe, as in all things the pendulum swings back, cyclically.
 
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