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Kyle's KINGS

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ForkedTung

ForkedTung

Serpent Mound Monk
I've been meaning to do this for awhile, especially after seeing the siblings of my two Thayeri's that Hallie posted:
First up:
pics 1,2 ARIZONA ( A female Blairs phase grayband)

pics 3,4 CANDY ( an female Arizona Mountain King)*** still my favorite lil girl!

pic 5 LIONESS ( Thayeri female )
 

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pic 6 LIONESS AGAIN

pics 7,8 TEXAS ( my newest an 09' male Blair's phase Grayband ***check out his sweet spots)

pics 9,10 TIGER ( male Thayeri)

The pics aren't great and the colors are a bit off ( esp. tiger, I tried to correct it but really couldn't), hope you get the idea though.
 

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rolandslf said:
Lioness is totally awesome, she would be my favourite.

Ciao
Click to expand...
Thanks Roland, I bought her as a pair with Tiger and she was definitely the reason I bought the pair, she has more of a yellowish/ old bone color as her base...I believe some call it buckskin, but it reminds me more of bone.
 
Definitely agree with you about Candy, I love her!!! Just send her to me please. ;)

And wow, its amazing how much your thayeri girl looks like my theyeri boy!! So cute.
 
Hey Kyle, FYI; Arizona sure looks like a hybrid. Most likely with greeri or mex mex, but possibly with a thayeri.
 
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Great looking group of kings Kyle. I would be hard pressed to pick a favorite out of the bunch. I have to say though that I do love the wide variety of colors on the Thayeri. Guess that is why they call them Variable Kingsnakes sometimes, eh? I know each of my three look completely different from each other.
 
mike17l said:
Hey Kyle, FYI; Arizona sure looks like a hybrid. Most likely with mex mex, but possibly with a different mexicana.
Click to expand...

What makes you say that? I'm not an alterna expert by any stretch, but Arizona looks like a perfectly normal TX greyband. Similar to my male Langtry, actually.

I'm just curious as to what visual identifiers are cueing you to think hybrid?
 
tyflier said:
What makes you say that? I'm not an alterna expert by any stretch, but Arizona looks like a perfectly normal TX greyband. Similar to my male Langtry, actually.

I'm just curious as to what visual identifiers are cueing you to think hybrid?
Click to expand...

The high band count and the nuchal area are pretty big indicators.
 
mike17l said:
The high band count and the nuchal area are pretty big indicators.
Click to expand...

I don't think the band count is that high. I've seen greybands from west TX with higher saddle counts than that. Some of the wild alterna in the Langtry and Lozier Canyon areas have really high saddle counts. I've also seen a lot of them with connected nuchal saddles like that. In fact my pure Langtry female has an almost identical nuchal pattern. And the Juno Rd. alterna/blairs pahse are known for their incredibly high saddle counts.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that visual cues are not reliable. Especially in a snake as widely variable as L.alterna are. Iris color is a more reliable visual indicator of intergradation between alterna and mexicana. Arizona appears to have blue irises, which would indicate alterna, to me. The mexicana/alterna intergrades I have seen typically have an amber or brown iris...

But really...there is no way to be 100% certain visually. Especailly with an incredibly variable species like alterna...
 
Arizona doesn't look pure to me either. All I have to base this on is a seeing a few thousand, producing a few greybands myself, and looking at the collections of a BUNCH of folks over the years. It's a nice looking snake though.
 
wilomn said:
Arizona doesn't look pure to me either. All I have to base this on is a seeing a few thousand, producing a few greybands myself, and looking at the collections of a BUNCH of folks over the years. It's a nice looking snake though.
Click to expand...
What do you think it looks like?
 
Thanks to everyone that commented on my collection! Kings are pretty cool, I find them "out and about" more than my corns.
 
OK...but it still isn't a reliable "indicator".

Look at the variety on this page alone--
http://www.southwesternherp.com/snakes/alterna.html

Scroll to the bottom and check out the Christmas Mountain and Davis Mountains localities.

All I'm saying is that it is absolutely impossible to positively identify an intergrade of alterna X mexicana visually. There is no way to be 100% certain of that by looking at the animal. You can make a reasonable guess, using whichever visual cues you choose, but...you csimply cannot be 10-0% certain of it based on visual cues. Period.

To call nuchal blotches "reliable" is inaccurate, because there are plenty of pure alterna with connected nuchal blotches. Is it the common? No...but it happens. Saddles counts can make you wonder, but is it a reliable indicator? No. There are pure alterna with saddles counts ranging from none to more than this one has. Ever seen the "granite phase" from west TX? Not a single saddle or alterna phase band. They look like speckled granite...but they are pure alterna.

I choose to go by the iris color because mexicana have brown eyes...always, and alterna have blue eyes...always. But even that isn't a reliable indicator, because an intergrade could have one or the other, or a mix somewhere in the middle.

Like I said...I'm not claiming to be an expert, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying there is no way to be 100% certain based on visual "cues".
 
ForkedTung said:
What do you think it looks like?
Click to expand...

My guess would be some thayeri but mexicana wouldn't surprise me either. It just doesn't look right for a pure blooded greyband.

I'm not saying you're wrong either because there really is no way to know for sure as you said. However, based on a few years of experience, I'd say hybrid.
 
wilomn said:
My guess would be some thayeri but mexicana wouldn't surprise me either. It just doesn't look right for a pure blooded greyband.

I'm not saying you're wrong either because there really is no way to know for sure as you said. However, based on a few years of experience, I'd say hybrid.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong...I agree that it is definitely an "oddball" alterna. I just don't like to be so quick to judge it a hybrid. I prefer to trust the breeders, and if this snake was purchased as an alterna...that's what we have to accept. Unfortunately, even scale counts and such wouldn't be of much help, because mexicana and alterna are so closely related, anyhow. That's why I only purchase locality alterna from breeders I know and trust.

Good conversation, none-the-less. Thanks for that.
 
So when I breed her with the male "TEXAS" I got from Bill Gillingham,www.snakemuseum.com, I could still label the offspring as generic Greybands.
ps) I don't have a provenence for her, she was a CL buy and seller lost orig. owners info.
 
ForkedTung said:
So when I breed her with the male "TEXAS" I got from Bill Gillingham,www.snakemuseum.com, I could still label the offspring as generic Greybands.
ps) I don't have a provenence for her, she was a CL buy and seller lost orig. owners info.
Click to expand...

Personally I would get rid of her, there is no way that she is a pure alterna. But If I did breed her, I would sell the babies as hybrids. With what? not sure, but I would not sell the babies as pure alterna.
 
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