Live vs. Frozen/Thawed

[medusacoils]

Obviously you didn't read my entire list. The only thing for my benefit is not losing rodents. The nutritional aspect is a big thing for me. Most pre-killers use CO2 to kill the rodents. Nobody knows the long term effects of this on the snakes themselves(all that CO2 in the rodents blood) Also it is known that freezing breaks down nutrients. Snakes in the wild don't use freezers, so why would I? Also look at number 3.

3. I very closely moniter my snakes when they feed and make sure the rodent's mouth is not in a position to bite. I'd never leave a live rodent alone with a snake.

Only once have I ever had an instance where a rodent was in a position to bite and it was my own fault. I dangled the rat from its tail and my snake got a leg strike and didn't coil it properly. Because I was there, I was able to fix the situation and not have my snake bitten. Other than that, I have never had anything happen, and I won't let anything happen.

I know a lot of people see the pictures of snakes who were chewed on.

I call it as I see it and I still believe that the only one benefiting from feeding your snake(s) live, instead of F/T, is YOU!! Your snakes aren't getting addition nutrients. There isn't any proof of a long term, adverse effect associated with feeding an animal that was euthanized by CO2. Which is already present in the blood and lungs of the feeder animal, anyway. It's also one of the first thing that develops after an animal dies, not to mention that it's present in every living things intestinal track. If you doubt it is, the next time you break wind, be careful, based on your claim, it could kill you! AND, The amount of nutrients lost during the freezing process is minimal, if at all.

Every time you drop a live rodent into your tank, regardless if you are on top of it or not, you are tempting fate. These animals will defend themselves, any way they can. And if the only thing they can bite onto is your snakes eye, then so be it! It's not like the rodent is gonna wave you down and yell, "watch this!!" before it happens! How can you really know!

My question is
Where were the stupid owners when this was happening???

NICE REALLY NICE!!! This is the ultimate sign of a person, semi believing their own baseless theories! Your grasping at straws and your unsubstantiated!!

I also like that the only two posts you have made to this point, were in this tread! Who are you, really?? What are you trying to prove?

Good luck to you!! Your gonna need it, because it's only a matter of time!

Wayne

 

[CrousesCorns]

No more live food to my snakes. Those pics are probably some of the nicer looking ones. Now that I have adults to feed only freshly killed or frozen to my pets/investments!!! Thanks alot for the pictures and thanks for the great discussions on the subject.

 

[hookpits]

The original question to this thread was about what method each of us use. Frozen vs thawed. I'm not trying to prove anything. I have my preference just like anybody else. Many other REPUTABLE snake keepers feed live, it's just i'm the only one to admit it on one of these threads. I know most of you will hate me because of this, but as I stated before, i have my reasons too. I have two close friends who I do a lot of business with that feed only live for the same reasons as me. They have both been doing this for over 15 yrs each and have never had an issue. I've only been keeping snakes for a little over a year and I've yet to have an injury to one of my animals. And as I said, I'd like to know where the owners were when the injuries in the pics above happened. I could see a puncture wound here or there but not gaping holes. For the mice and ASFs I have, it would take them a while to do that kind of damage. I'm not saying there aren't freak accidents, and I do feel sorry for the snakes that are hurt.

I'm just answering the question the original person asked. Hate me if you want but it is the choice I make.

I do agree that if your animal will take frozen, then go for it if you choose. It's just 4 out of 5 of my animals won't touch it if it isn't alive. Even fresh killed.

 

[ggmarascola]

i have used live a few times, and the snake incurred a MINOR injury on one of those instances. its just not worth it, use F/T mice!

 

[Shiari]

And as I said, I'd like to know where the owners were when the injuries in the pics above happened. I could see a puncture wound here or there but not gaping holes.

While I don't know the history of the animal pictured, I again respond that my sil was dangling a rat for a ball when it missed by a close enough margin that the rat bit the snake's head and removed part of its skull, a terminal injury. She was right there. The rat was not left in with the snake. It was a freak accident, but freak accidents DO happen no matter how carefully you monitor.

 

[hookpits]

I stated earlier that the only incident I've had was when I was also "dangling" a rat by the tail. It was because of this un-natural position that the snakes missed. I place my snakes in a seperate feeding tank, then drop the mouse of the other end. Everytime since then, my snakes almost always hit the side of the neck and coil the body. This keeps the head of the mouse away from the snake. "Dangling" is not natural and they can't strike it properly from that position.

 

[medusacoils]

I am not saying I have never fed a life mouse. I have and I have tried to feed one recently, to my breeder that has been off feed since November. That was well before his brumation. I only did it in an attempt to entice him. I understand there is instances when you may have to feed a snake a live rodent. But always!! I think not!!

4 out of 5 won't eat f/t!

You not trying very hard, I can tell! This is YOU that wants to keep things the way that they are. You!! Not your snakes and the evidence is in your posts. You keep trying to justify, why! So, don't try to slither:roflmao: out of this and blame the animals.:sidestep:

I don't know why, knowing what we know today, anyone would want to keep feeding their animals live. Unless, they get some sort of rise or enjoyment out of it!?!? The risk of even a minor injury, becoming major-ly infecting, is too grand!

But hey, they are your snakes and it's your money along with your choice. Good luck with this!! This is just my opinion, of course!!:eatpointe

Wayne

 

[starsevol]

If 4 out of 5 of someone's animals refuse f/t, then someone is being lazy and not trying hard enough to convert them.
I knew someone once who kept a collection of WILD CAUGHT native snakes and every single one of them took frozen/thawed prey.
The fear of CO2 causing health issues in snakes has been disproven.
The nutritional value of frozen prey is just fine.

So, feeding live appears to be for the keepers convienience rather than the benefit of the animals. Is it laziness or cruelty or possibly both?

 

[hookpits]

Gee thanks everyone. I just answered the question and got attacked. Adios.

 

[Shiari]

Placing the rodent, unstunned, in a tub with a snake is simply asking for eventual disaster. All it takes is the one mouse that is not terrified, but rather aggressive, and you've got injuries, perhaps severe. And even in a tub without the rodent dangling, a snake can miss if the animal is fast.

You can find plenty of videos on youtube of snakes missing their first couple strikes while being fed live in a tub.

 

[tricksterpup]

I do agree that if your animal will take frozen, then go for it if you choose. It's just 4 out of 5 of my animals won't touch it if it isn't alive. Even fresh killed.

That is bull hockey pure and simple. I have gotten animals that were live only eaters and now eat frozen thawed. Heck, I have a wild caught Fox snake that readily takes frozen. I have gotten Ball pythons to take frozen easily, it just takes time but it will happen. You are not spending enough time or allowing your animals enough time to eat.

All of these arguments are all bogus.

1. If my snake refuses a prekilled rodent, I'm out that rodent.
2. Snakes were made to kill and they do it quite effectively.
3. I very closely moniter my snakes when they feed and make sure the rodent's mouth is not in a position to bite. I'd never leave a live rodent alone with a snake.
4. Freezing breaks down some nutrients.
5. My Balls won't touch anything already dead.
6. My corn seems to enjoy the hunt. Why would I deny him what he was created for?

Seriously if your ball pythons are not eating Frozen Thawed the temps are probably off. The Mouse or Rodent should be at 100 degrees. This is the normal temp for a live mouse. The reason why they are not taking them is due to the temps not being right and you need to entice them for a bit.

Heck, now I can just place a frozen Thawed rat at 100 degrees in the feeding tub with a Ball python and its gone.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

I agree with most of the comments - f/t I think is the best. If your snake will take f/t, then feed it f/t. It's cheaper, safer, and more humane. Especially with cornsnakes - I've never had a cornsnake that wouldn't take f/t. I've had some hatchlings that only took live for a while and were more difficult to get switch, but they always switched.

So for corns, I really don't think there's a good reason not to feed f/t or at the very least p/k.

That being said, for difficult snakes, like bps, or maybe WC specimens who will only take live, I don't think it is that dangerous if done responsibly. Most people just drop the animal in the cage or leave it unattended over night or for days. This is the case for all of those horrible pictures you see. I doubt the picture posted earlier is from one mouse that was eaten right away.

I feed live to my picky bps by grabbing the nape of the neck of the rodent with a pair of forceps and dangle it in front of the snake. This way the snake has a clear shot and can grab the head and minimize the risk - no chance of it biting the rear of the mouse and it swinging around and biting the snake.

Seriously if your ball pythons are not eating Frozen Thawed the temps are probably off. The Mouse or Rodent should be at 100 degrees. This is the normal temp for a live mouse. The reason why they are not taking them is due to the temps not being right and you need to entice them for a bit.

Heck, now I can just place a frozen Thawed rat at 100 degrees in the feeding tub with a Ball python and its gone.

I'd just like to chime in that bps are generally not as easily switched to f/t. I currently have 9 bps in my collection, only 5 take f/t. The other 4 have nothing to do with it. I've tried it all and nothing has worked. In certain species, such as bps, I don't think you're necessarily going to get everyone to feed f/t, and if you can't the key is responsible live feeding.

 

[hookpits]

Thank you!!! I'm glad to not be the only one who has picky BPs. I've tried everything with mine including letting my adult male go 3 months without eating. I do feed live RESPONSIBLY. This is part of my point. It's about being responsible with the difficult ones. I used to have an adult female BP that took frozen, so that's what I fed her. I don't have her anymore and the BPs I have left WILL NOT touch dead. Sorry. Don't call me lazy. I've tried all the techniques but none work. My temps are fine. My mojave male used to be on f/t as a baby but soon stopped all together. I'd rather feed live than let them die or even go for long periods without.

 

[tricksterpup]

I'd just like to chime in that bps are generally not as easily switched to f/t. I currently have 9 bps in my collection, only 5 take f/t. The other 4 have nothing to do with it. I've tried it all and nothing has worked. In certain species, such as bps, I don't think you're necessarily going to get everyone to feed f/t, and if you can't the key is responsible live feeding.

I have around 10 bps myself, all converted to Frozen Thawed. Most all started off as live feeders but i got them going.
I have only known of 1 Ball python that has been only a live feeder and it was only Gerbils as well. But the snake itself died last year, it was a w/c and the owner had the animal for about 20 years.

I personally think when a BP refuses to eat and will only do live, something is missing with the Care.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

I have around 10 bps myself, all converted to Frozen Thawed. Most all started off as live feeders but i got them going.
I have only known of 1 Ball python that has been only a live feeder and it was only Gerbils as well. But the snake itself died last year, it was a w/c and the owner had the animal for about 20 years.

I personally think when a BP refuses to eat and will only do live, something is missing with the Care.

Well, I have to respectfully disagree. Temps are dead on, they have hides, water, etc. They eat live regularly, defecate, shed, breed, etc all normally. I've tried rats, I've tried mice, I've tried ASF, all f/t, all heated up in scalding water, so they're plenty warm. I've done the rat dance enough with them to make a broadway production out of it. They just don't eat f/t. They're pickier than other snakes. It has nothing to do with the husbandry, its an intrinsic characteristic of them. Just read through forums and discussions on them and you'll see that I"m not alone.

 

[tricksterpup]

They just don't eat f/t. They're pickier than other snakes. It has nothing to do with the husbandry, its an intrinsic characteristic of them. Just read through forums and discussions on them and you'll see that I"m not alone.

:shrugs: Either i have been really lucky or something just right is going on with my collection. All my Balls at this time are frozen thawed feeders.
I still personally feel to many people give up to easily with converting their collection. I know it took me Months (up to 9) to get some of my animals to stop eating Live and it wasn't easy but they converted.

But atleast we agree that Corns should and will easily take F/T. :cheers:

 

[snakewispera snr]

This is one of the big differences I see between the States and the UK.....
In the states, live feeding is sort of more common. So I get to see conversion to F/T from live threads a lot....
In the UK it is widely believed that live food is illegal (it's not, but we're not here to discuss that) so much so just about every C/B snake for sale in the UK is a F/T feeder...
Makes me think, converting them isn't too difficult, and starting them on F/T is the way forward....

 

[Bobo's Mama]

Hookpits, what do you say about a snake that WON'T EAT LIVE! I have a young bullsnake that won't even think of eating a live mouse! I've had him since October and fed him multiple times. He refuses to eat live pinkies. I have my own mice colonies and sometimes I do feed live pinkies or fuzzies, but this bullsnake will NOT eat a live pinky. I guess he wasn't reading the handbook of snakes only eating live mice. I just wanted to share a different set of experiences. Also, all 8 of my other snakes eat f/t willingly.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

:shrugs: Either i have been really lucky or something just right is going on with my collection. All my Balls at this time are frozen thawed feeders.
I still personally feel to many people give up to easily with converting their collection. I know it took me Months (up to 9) to get some of my animals to stop eating Live and it wasn't easy but they converted.

I won't disagree with you there. Many people that I've talked to about it do just try once and say "Oh, they won't take f/t". That is being lazy and giving up too early. But at the same time myself, and others, have tried converting, and some just won't do it.

I bought an adult mojave male about a year and a half ago as a "difficult feeder" (i.e. only eats gerbils). He was priced very well because of his feeding and I thought, I could easily switch him to mice/rats and eventually f/t. A year and a half later, the best I've done is switch him to live ASF. He was the one that's really convinced me that bps, are generally pickier than the colubrids.

But atleast we agree that Corns should and will easily take F/T. :cheers:

No doubt about that!

 

[hookpits]

That's very interesting. I used to work at Petco a long time ago and we had a baby corn who refused everything except f/t pinkies with their heads cut open.