Miami Corns

[John Albrecht]

An additional .02 cents

I truly do see everyone's point about the difficulty of identifying and maintaining a supposedly "pure" locality type line. All the arguments that have been put forth are valid.

Even though I desire for myself to have "pure" locality animals I know that a lot of people don't value that. All I can hope for is that animals be identified appropriately regardless. If you are able to nail down the heritage of offspring that are being sold and can reasonably connect the dots back to the original stock then go ahead and say they are locality. I think you can do that regardless of how many generations have gone by as long as there hasn't been outcrossing and you keep good records to know that. If you are not able to completely validate the line then you have a "look alike" morph. There is no shame in that, and I agree that sometimes those animals can even be more attractive. The market clearly doesn't mind, just please provide full disclosure.

In each case for the contributors here I have found that if I asked the right questions I got accurate answers. To some degree it is the buyers responsibility to ask those questions about the pedigree. Until recently I didn't really know of anybody breeding "pure" locality Okeetee's. So I did exactly as has been suggested here, which is, that I went and collected my own stock. I have cornsnakes that are mutts and I have cornsnakes that are "pure" locality.

If someone comes along and wants to obtain pure locality animals from me then that person has some decisions they have to make about me. First, do they trust me when I say I have "pure" locality animals. Secondly, can I validate in any way, shape or form, what I am claiming. To the best of my knowledge the only thing I can do in that regard is to maintain accurate records. I have the details on the animals that are the founding stock. I have the capture location and approximate age of each of the WC founder stock. I can supply that information, then it is up to each buyer to decide if that is "pure" enough for them. If I didn't have that information then my claims to have "pure" stock would be diminished in value.

Some people think that "pure" Okeetee means that they are descended from stock from Okeetee Hunt Club. For others it means they are from Jasper Cnty. To me everyone's opinion is as valid as the next guys, as long as you can substantiate what you claim. Same goes for Miami corns, I've seen gorgeous grey background corns all the way up in Maryland, and if I'm not mistaken Rich, I think you've seen some of the very same animals. If someone wants to claim them as Miami corns then go right ahead. But I think it would be appropriate to disclose as best possible where they actually came from.

 

[larryg]

:bowdown: Thank you Kathy and Rich!
Larry, it's great you choose to believe this novelty exists, and if you can convince your buyers there is something magically special about your Miamis... no one is trying to stop you. You mentioned you are really not seeking approval from any of us.... likewise, none of us are seeking approval from you or your legendary doctor.
I don't believe pure Miami localities existYou came riding in on your horse saying that only you and a select few REALLY have Miamis, and the rest of us are wrong. While you are at it, why don't you decide that Mexican Food has to be made in Mexico to earn that label. Go try telling all the Mexican Restaurants, and all us consumers we have to change our ways. The matter was dropped, and you decided to resurrect it with comments that even your doctor agrees Maimi Phase is just a look. :shrugs:

No, you apparently misunderstood. I had originally believed that Miami Phase should be reserved for those locality animals. I was corrected by someone KNOWLEDGABLE (not an internet Corn huckster), and I posted the correct information. Miami Phase does refer strictly to a color pattern, while Miami Corns (or Miami locality) refers to locality specimens.

As far as the Okeetees, I was told Bill Love said some of his best Okeetees came from Ft. Myers, so I am not clear as to whether Kathy's Okeetee Phase animals are from the same lines?

I do believe you should calls yours MIAMI PHASE, Carol, whether you agree or not.

 

[larryg]

Yes, this is what people were trying to tell you. It doesn't take a degree to know what "phase" means.

"Miami corn" still does not by itself imply locality. Since "Columbia Boa" does not have any other meaning to anyone, there is no confusion. However, "miami" already has its own meaning in the corn world. People say hypo miami and amel miami and miami motley, etc., and none of those ever mean locality. It means a lack of ground color where you might otherwise expect orange to appear.

If you want to identify them as locale corns in a way that people will actually understand that you mean they are locale corns, then it is up to you to figure out a term that will do just that, instead of expecting the entire hobby to change their vocabulary at your whim.

Sounds like a very intelligent person who knows how to give a satisfactory yet completely noncommittal answer that cannot be misinterpreted to be turned against him. :grin01:

The same characteristics are noted in bloodred corns. Are you comparing this to the rest of the wild corn population, or is this just "different" in comparison to what we have grown to expect out of captive-bred cornsnakes?

Miami Phase is the correct term. I hardly think this board represents the 'entire hobby.' Maybe 1 or 2 percent at most.

 

[larryg]

And, no, Miami locality Corns do not have a 'lack of ground color.' That's more misinformation. The ground color ranges from dark gunmetal grey to light grey, probably with some red or brown mixed in, depending on the individual specimen.

As far as people selling Corns or any other snake, obviously the seller's reputation comes into play. Personally, I don't understand why most sellers don't provide photos of and more information about parents, grandparents, etc. (in addition to locality information.) Maybe it's just a question of ambition vs. laziness.

To get back to the original point of this thread, I am assuming the method to establishing a locality variation is to first form a hypothesis, and then prove/test that hypothesis by both deduction and induction.

I might not laugh so hard if the people 'arguing' with me were not all based in places like IL, CA, and Wisconsin (people whose experience with Miami is probably limited to Don Johnson and Philip Michael Thomas.)

 

[kathylove]

No, we have never kept an "okeetee" from Ft. Myers, lol!

Not sure where that came from. The only corns from our area that I have kept is the original "Pine Island" charcoal, and a w.c. normal with a white spot on the neck. Haven't seen any others that fit into my breeding projects.

AFAIK, all of my okeetees are descended from stock from Jasper County. But as I said, I did not collect them, it was a long time ago, and I have no way to know their origins other than what the reputable collectors / breeders back then told me. So from now on I will call mine okeetee phase so I can avoid the whole debate.

With the advent of affordable digital cameras, I think more and more breeders are keeping photo records. And I think the ACR will do A LOT to further that goal. My plan is to use the ACR in exactly the way you describe, and to let customers look up the relatives of the babies they buy. Due to lack of time, organization, or whatever reason, most people do not have those photo records going all the way back to when they first started breeding, although many of us do have paper records. But in time, the ACR records will provide several generations of photo and other records for people to do their own genealogy searches.

 

[Roy Munson]

And if Johnson&Johnsnon doesn't make the cotton swab, then it isn't a Q-Tip. And if they don't make the adhesive bandage, it isn't a Band-Aid. But 99% of the population use the brand names for these product types regardless of the actual manufacturer. Is it reasonable for me to expect them to desist because I'm a stickler for precise terminology? Probably not. And I'm not even an internet cotton swab huckster. :grin01:

 

[larryg]

Keeping photo records is the only benefit I can see for the ACR. I plan to provide a 'photo pedigree' for any offspring I sell, therefore it is of no use to me. Maybe I'll start the MLCSR (Miami Locality Corn Snake Registry), or simply LCSR (for all locality Corns.) Personally, I don't know why it was limited to 'American' Cornsnake Registry. Do you guys know about the FCI, in the dog world? It's the equivalent of an international registry of sorts.
http://www.fci.be/

Dean, as somebody who cares about spelling and grammar, don't you also care about correct terminology? Hopefully these boards are for learning new things. I am not afraid to say I was corrected about the use of Miami Phase (as anything more than a color phase.)

 

[jazzgeek]

I might not laugh so hard if the people 'arguing' with me were not all based in places like IL, CA, and Wisconsin (people whose experience with Miami is probably limited to Don Johnson and Philip Michael Thomas.)

Ah, an attempt at humor (and a presumptuous dig) with a pop culture reference. Sadly, it's dated and tired.

And yet, "dated and tired" seems to be applicable to not just the cultural reference, but to the position in general.

I've made no claim to knowledge of Miami Corns, be they locality or phase. However, I do have a passing knowledge of the English language. I'm aware of the meaning of the term "phase", for example. I didn't even have to consult an academic on that one.

I'm also aware that once caught, the progeny of a wild caught animal, whether captured in Dade County, Jasper County, Mount Prospect, Morgan Hill, or Palmyra, are now captive bred. Does that qualify them to be labeled as "impure" to locality? The marketplace decides that. Not me. Not you.

regards,
jazz

 

[larryg]

Ah, an attempt at humor (and a presumptuous dig) with a pop culture reference. Sadly, it's dated and tired.

And yet, "dated and tired" seems to be applicable to not just the cultural reference, but to the position in general.

I've made no claim to knowledge of Miami Corns, be they locality or phase. However, I do have a passing knowledge of the English language. I'm aware of the meaning of the term "phase", for example. I didn't even have to consult an academic on that one.

I'm also aware that once caught, the progeny of a wild caught animal, whether captured in Dade County, Jasper County, Mount Prospect, Morgan Hill, or Palmyra, are now captive bred. Does that qualify them to be labeled as "impure" to locality? The marketplace decides that. Not me. Not you.

regards,
jazz

I have always liked Miami Vice, so it wasn't intended to be terribly insulting. It's not like I said your only experience with Miami is Gloria Estefan and the Miami Sound Machine.

That's great you know what 'phase' means and how to apply it. Not everyone does, apparently.

Most people just want a beautful snake that looks a certain way, eats, and has a reasonably normal temperament. I personally think many of the locality Miami Corns look better than others' non-locality "Miamis" or whatever they insist on calling them.

 

[diamondlil]

:-offtopic I thought Gloria was quite funky, at the time

 

[Roy Munson]

Dean, as somebody who cares about spelling and grammar, don't you also care about correct terminology? Hopefully these boards are for learning new things. I am not afraid to say I was corrected about the use of Miami Phase (as anything more than a color phase.)

I do care about correct terminology, and I actually agree with you about the use of "phase" to clearly differentiate look from locality. I cringe a little when I see someone post their new "Okeetee" that they got from a pet store 3,000 miles from the Hunt Club. For me, it goes beyond locality issues too. I'd like to see only red snakes homo for diffusion labeled blood red, and other non-red diffusion combos to be labeled "diffused". My lavender-bloods do not have a red scale on them, so lavender-diffused seems like a more descriptive and accurate label to me.

But my point was that my naming preferences don't seem to matter much as far as general usage goes. To fight for them would be like tilting at windmills. You can't ignore marketing either, where sexy trumps scientific every time. I may prefer the term "lavender-diffused" to "plasma" or "lav-blood", but when it comes time to sell hatchlings of this morph, I'll have to sell out my principles and go with whatever term is most marketable.

But I really DO understand what you're saying.

 

[Wilder]

No, you apparently misunderstood. I had originally believed that Miami Phase should be reserved for those locality animals. I was corrected by someone KNOWLEDGABLE (not an internet Corn huckster), and I posted the correct information.

Whatever point there is to this ridiculous debate, this comment here was entirely uncalled for and fairly low. I would hope that you intend to apologize for stating it.

 

[diamondlil]

but if I'm following this correctly, my 'carolina' is probably really a normal, as I know she was imported from the states, but don't know the breeder or her original ancestry, but am one of the people who bought a snake because I couldn't resist how she looks. I can see that it is a different matter for a breeder or collector who would perhaps value genotype over phenotype, but may not be terribly important to many others who just love the way their own particular snake looks.

 

[Serpwidgets]

This is so ridiculous, it's like saying "I collected corns from a town named "Blood" and so my corns are the REAL blood corns and everyone using the term blood to mean bloodred is an idiot. And I can back up my statements by quoting some guy with a PhD in geography to say that Blood is a real city, and you guys are not all from Blood so you are all scammers and liars because you don't know what Blood corns really are."

Larry, the only thing you've proven so far is your own gullability. You keep trying to prop up your commentary as if there's someone with credentials backing you up. It's really sad that you cannot argue anything on your own merits but have to keep referencing everything back to someone whose mouth you are putting words into.

BTW, the term "warrants further study" is almost completely meaningless, the only thing it does mean is "the answer is somewhere between absolutely yes and positively no."
Is there life on Mars? Warrants further study.
Is Pluto made of cheese? Warrants further study.
Is there really a loch-ness monster? Warrants further study.
Is bigfoot living in my kitchen? Warrants further study.

The funniest thing about this whole thread is that you don't get that you were duped, and you probably never will.

I might not laugh so hard if the people 'arguing' with me were not all based in places like IL, CA, and Wisconsin (people whose experience with Miami is probably limited to Don Johnson and Philip Michael Thomas.)

Laugh all you want. We speak English here in IL, CA, and Wisconsin and the rest of the country. We don't need someone with a degree to tell us what "phase" means, and we don't need someone with a degree to understand the concept of abbreviation, which is what people do when they are talking about hypo miamis and miami motleys and other miamis.

And since you keep talking as if you have to be from the Miami area to know anything about the local population of corns, tell us Larry, how many corns have you collected outside that area? What qualifications do you hold to compare corns from your area with other corns where you do not live? On what rational basis are you making a comparison between the corns in the Miami area versus the entire rest of the wild population?

And, no, Miami locality Corns do not have a 'lack of ground color.'

I didn't say Miami locality corns. I said Miami corns, and they are characterized by a lack of ground color.

Maybe I'll start the MLCSR (Miami Locality Corn Snake Registry), or simply LCSR (for all locality Corns.)

Go for it, Larry. The ACR already offers locality information. But hey, if you want to start your own, please do, instead of making totally lame attempts to bad mouth other people as a way to cover up the fact that you have no point.

Personally, I don't know why it was limited to 'American' Cornsnake Registry.

Because I have some consideration for people in Europe who will be starting their own registry. But again, what exactly does this have to do with the point you think you are trying to make? Oh yeah, it doesn't. It's just more of the same of what you offer in every thread you involve yourself in.

So instead of beating around the bush, why don't you answer the question:

The same characteristics are noted in bloodred corns. Are you comparing this to the rest of the wild corn population, or is this just "different" in comparison to what we have grown to expect out of captive-bred cornsnakes?

 

[Menhir]

Label your animals as "Locality XYZ" and never pick out animals by their look - otherwise there is not more to them than to any other selectivly bred phase. The absence of natural selection makes the whole "locality" thing very questionable - that's at least what I think.


Greetings
Michael

This is so ridiculous, it's like saying "I collected corns from a town named "Blood" and so my corns are the REAL blood corns and everyone using the term blood to mean bloodred is an idiot. And I can back up my statements by quoting some guy with a PhD in geography to say that Blood is a real city, and you guys are not all from Blood so you are all scammers and liars because you don't know what Blood corns really are."

Do you have any agression against my line of locality Lavender Bloods?


That was the funniest way of claiming how useless the whole discussion is.

 

[carol]

No, you apparently misunderstood. I had originally believed that Miami Phase should be reserved for those locality animals. I was corrected by someone KNOWLEDGABLE (not an internet Corn huckster), and I posted the correct information. Miami Phase does refer strictly to a color pattern,

Heh, and the funny thing is.... I may live in CA but your professor agreed with me, not you. So who is the huckster? You see I didn't need the degree or to live in Florida to know what your Doctor confirmed. What does that say about you, especially since people who live in Florida are supposed to have so much knowledge on the use of the word Phase.

while Miami Corns (or Miami locality) refers to locality specimens.

HMMM, so far you are the only one I have seen that continues to hold on to this. I didn't see in your reports of the Doctors comments that Miami Corn has to be a locality animal. This is something you are promoting and I'm not about to take directions from a Floridian that doesn't even know what "Phase" means.

I still don't get what exactly it is you want from us, and if we are such an insignificant part of the herp population, why do you come here?

I'll call my corns Miamis or Miami Phase, which ever I am in the mood for at that time. I've had hundreds of requests for Miamis over the years. I have not had one person with locality in mind ask for a Miami. If the day comes when someone asks me if I have any locality animals available, I'll say no. It's worked for years just fine. If you want to make a nuisance of yourself and be the "she didn't say 'Phase'" police go right ahead. Everyone already knows that when I say Miami I'm not talking about locality, so when you post you'll just be making a big deal over something that everyone else is aware of and doesn't have a problem with. It won't bother me to see people snickering at your anality. Heh, I might have just made up a word.

 

[carol]

Like I said before, why don't you try running into a Mexican restaurant and frantically alerting everyone that their food wasn't made in Mexico. Will your actions reflect badly on the restaurant owner, or yourself?

Or is it Mexican Phase Food?

 

[dionythicus]

Are you a Mexican or a Mexi-can't?

 

[Rich Z]

And, no, Miami locality Corns do not have a 'lack of ground color.' That's more misinformation. The ground color ranges from dark gunmetal grey to light grey, probably with some red or brown mixed in, depending on the individual specimen.

Just out of curiosity, but what would you call a corn snake caught in Miami that had an orange background color?

And to put another wrinkle, the term I coined "Miami Phase" truly meant corn snakes that came from the Miami/Homestead area at that time. That was where all of my stock originated from, and is what I meant by using the term, in relation to how THOSE animals from THAT locality looked.

 

[carol]

Just out of curiosity, but what would you call a corn snake caught in Miami that had an orange background color?

And to put another wrinkle, the term I coined "Miami Phase" truly meant corn snakes that came from the Miami/Homestead area at that time. That was where all of my stock originated from, and is what I meant by using the term, in relation to how THOSE animals from THAT locality looked.

Curious, what definition of the term do you have know?