Miami Phase Influense, Help!!!

[ghosthousecorns]

I don't think I have seen many (perhaps any) new genes surface without someone calling hybrid. It happened with Cinder, with Ultra. Sometimes it seems like sour grapes and other times there might be a legitimate reason why someone would say this. But I too believe you can't insinuate something like this in public and then expect it to be taken to PM's. By saying someone's stock is suspected hybrid you can hurt their credibility and sales. Let's hear some good, specific reasons why it would be suspected hybrid, other than "because it is new and has not been seen before".

 

[KJUN]

I just want to know what point Mike or my erroneously described sexuality (which was obviously, but failingly, written is a misdirected intent to insult) has to do with cornsnakes and made-up hybrid markers. Shrug?

 

[cka]

I think the community in general is just a bit too fast to pull the "hybrid" pistol out of the holster at times. Just by inferring the possibility can really damage potential sales, and just as inportant (well to me) can quash potential enthusiam over something "new". I bought into the "Tequila Sunrise" line from VMS before questions of their background arose. Nothing has ever been comfirmed, but it was enough to drive prices down, and apparently cause VMS to either sell them off or really keep it "hush hush" with whats going on with them. Do I think they're hybrids? I have my concerns, but i just don't know. Don't know the originator, don't know squat about the original snakes background, etc. It's the same with Tessera's, and anything else "new" thats comes out. I do know KJ and the others working with them have been extremely forthcoming about them, moreso then any other breeders probably would be, and even if I had my doubts about them (and I don't at this point) I think we as a community should be a bit more supportive in their efforts and give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[KJUN]

By the way, anyone going to the NARBC show in Arlington, TX, can come by and see one in person! It'll be a baby (my adults are too valuable to stress during breeding season - I hope everyone understands that), and we'll have it there for those that care! Just stop by Don's table (SMR). With luck, I will be there, Don will be there, and....Graham is off of work so he will be there, too. Rob should be there behind his own table, too. What more can you ask for if you want to talk to the people working with them all at one time?

Oh, and Kasi with KIII will be there, too. Kasi can discuss it as readily as me. KIII doesn't talk much yet.....lol.

 

[mike17l]

By the way, anyone going to the NARBC show in Arlington, TX, can come by and see one in person! It'll be a baby (my adults are too valuable to stress during breeding season - I hope everyone understands that), and we'll have it there for those that care! Just stop by Don's table (SMR). With luck, I will be there, Don will be there, and....Graham is off of work so he will be there, too. Rob should be there behind his own table, too. What more can you ask for if you want to talk to the people working with them all at one time?

Oh, and Kasi with KIII will be there, too. Kasi can discuss it as readily as me. KIII doesn't talk much yet.....lol.

Ill be there too, thanks for forgetting about me, jackdonkey.

 

[KJUN]

You don't own a Tessera.....YET! That's why I left you out.
KJ

 

[mike17l]

Ill be there too, thanks for forgetting about me, jackdonkey.

I did not mean to offend your donkey KJ, please tell Victor the donkey that I am sorry if I did.

You don't own a Tessera.....YET! That's why I left you out.
KJ

I thought everyone wanted to see my pretty face? Isn't that why I'm going?

 

[KJUN]

I thought everyone wanted to see my pretty face? Isn't that why I'm going?

In additional to Mike's wonderful visage and the Tessera, we ALSO plan to have a normal tessera sibling on display so people can see the looks of the ones from the same clutch that didn't inherit the Tessera phenotype. Of course, these are just plain normals if the tessera gene is confirmed to be a codominant trait. Still, we are putting one on display so people can see for themselves what the normal siblings look like.
KJ

 

[marinneli]

Ok...this little thread filled with arguments has been long forgotten and now I'm bringing it all up again...

But I'd really really like to take the conversation back to the influences of Miami.

I still have the miami phase female here growing up like weed and seeing her grow and progress in a way I would've never expected has really made me think even harder about her future breedings. So far with every shed the background colour has become more and more pure grey - although it seems to be getting a bit darker at the same time as the amount of grey shade increases.

Here's a thread I'd like you to take a peek at.

There you'll see a miami on the first post of the 2nd page. It has very very light background and I love it. Although the colour is rather yellowy. I'd like to get this exact result BUT instead of the yellow pigmentation there would be none or a little grey.

My miami is presented on the same thread below. The pics aren't the best and actually those are quite old. New ones can be seen HERE.

So what do you think?

Should I take the risk and breed her with a candycane even though I don't know how much more black will the candy cause - or will the white cover it all up - or will the candy cause more yellowy background and miamis turning closer to normals?

 

[marinneli]

Forgat to say... Just like the original question of the thread's starter was:

Will the miami purify the colour of candies?

Put it in another way: What's the result of a miami x candy breeding? Assuming the miami is het. amel, will the offspring be miamis and candies or normal and amels? Or something inbetween?

If the offspring will be miamis and candies, is there a reason to believe they're better examples of the morphs than the parents were? Or will either one of the morphs improve and the other one get poorer? And which one improves and which not?

I know the result will never be carved in a stone (or however it's said in english), but I assume people (at least Carol) have done this kind of breedings so they should have some sort of a clue what these morphs do to eachother.

 

[ForkedTung]

OK, A Miami is a line bred (originally by locality) normal/classic
A Candy Cane is also a line bred Amel
So by breeding them together under the assumption that the Miami is het amel, you will get 50% normal/classics and 50% Amels.
Being that they are both line bred ( bred to look a certain way that is not directly linked to known gene loci) you will be diluting the "purity" of each line.
This means they will probably look like normals for either morph, but may show some or all of the line bred characteristics in a few specimens.
In order to really be able to change the color intensity of a morph it would also need to be line bred for quite a few generations.
Does this make sense Marinelli?

 

[carol]

I know the result will never be carved in a stone (or however it's said in english), but I assume people (at least Carol) have done this kind of breedings so they should have some sort of a clue what these morphs do to eachother.

Ahh the joy of line bred morphs. You can breed two HOT miamis together and get drab offspring. You can breed two HOT Candies together and get drab offspring. Then agian sometimes the results are spectacular even when the parents are less than par. A few of my Miamis are het Amel and most of the time they make very nice Candy Canes, I do get a few every year that get labeled as Amels because they didn't quite make it. A lot of it depends on the quality of Miami you are working with. A lot more people have put effort into improving Candy Canes than they have into Miamis. So I'd say breeding a nice Candy Cane to a so so Miami won't get you very far but may clean up your Miami line. If you've got a very clean, bright Miami, it very well could make nice Candy Canes. As long as you realize results from line bred morphs are unpredictable until you breed them. I know which of my Miamis "work" together and which don't, the same goes for Candys.

 

[Ssthisto]

So please pray tell, what are tesseras a hybrid with? What other egg-laying colubrid has a gene that is inherited in the same way as and looks similar to a tessera cornsnake?

I know that when I saw the first photo of a tessera, something about the pattern *screamed* "stripe pattern" California Kingsnake.

And coincidentally the Stripe pattern in Calis... is a dominant trait. Same as Tessera appears to be.

I'm certainly not saying that Tesseras are umpteenth-generation jungles with a Striped Cali ancestor that have been bred back to corns to retain the pattern until the animal has a "corn" body shape... but I would be interested to see what happens if you did breed a Striped Cali to a cornsnake, then breed the resultant striped jungles back to corns.

 

[marinneli]

Ahh the joy of line bred morphs. You can breed two HOT miamis together and get drab offspring. You can breed two HOT Candies together and get drab offspring. Then agian sometimes the results are spectacular even when the parents are less than par. A few of my Miamis are het Amel and most of the time they make very nice Candy Canes, I do get a few every year that get labeled as Amels because they didn't quite make it. A lot of it depends on the quality of Miami you are working with. A lot more people have put effort into improving Candy Canes than they have into Miamis. So I'd say breeding a nice Candy Cane to a so so Miami won't get you very far but may clean up your Miami line. If you've got a very clean, bright Miami, it very well could make nice Candy Canes. As long as you realize results from line bred morphs are unpredictable until you breed them. I know which of my Miamis "work" together and which don't, the same goes for Candys.

Thanks Carol. That's quite exactly what I've thought. And the reason why I'm so curious about it is indeed the will to improve and purify Miami lines. Or A line for what comes to me and my breedings.

I'm not very familiar with the "level" of finnish miami lines, but one thing I do know: the breeders of miamis can be counted with the fingers of one hand. And actually you'd only need your thoumb and forefinger to do the counting.

I might be willing to be the third one.
But I'd definitely would not settle with breeding the miamis we already have here with other miamis we already have here. I'd let the other ones do that and focus myself on improving the quality of my line.

The problem here is a complete absence of your amazing Miamis, Carol, so there's not much of a high-quality material to work with. That's why I need to find out what's the second best choise to breed my female miami with... Of course I'll have to wait and see how she'll develop to make the final desicion, but I've been thinkin about whether it would be better to breed her with a top-quality CandyCane or so-and-so Miami...

OR would I just have to eat oatmeal for a month or so and import one from you, Carol...???
A Huddleston Miami would be a great complement to my smallish collection.

 

[carol]

I expect to do an export to Hamm this year if you are going, and even my top of the line Miamis are only $50ea. Email me if you want details.

 

[TandJ]

Was the original Candy Canes not started using emoryi out crossing?

I think Kathy even mentioned that in "The Cornsnake Munual"...

*shrugs*


Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[carol]

Was the original Candy Canes not started using emoryi out crossing?

I think Kathy even mentioned that in "The Cornsnake Munual"...

*shrugs*


Regards.. Tim of T and J

I think at least one line was but multiple breeders worked independantly on this morph so there was really no one original line. Who knows how much of that one line is floating around in Candy Canes or in any other cornsnake for that matter. It's really too bad there wasn't an ACR back then. I wouldn't have thought it to be a good idea since emoryi ruins red coloration in everything it touches for several generations.