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My own little controversial topic... Just how "weird" are we?!

tbtusk wrote:
...People are born with 2 fears, snakes and heights (that's scientific fact!!). I think all us people who have loved snakes since we were 5 are a little "weird", as in not the way most people are. We just have a special extra something that no one else has. We're NOT afraid....
Click to expand...

I don't buy the "scientific fact" part of your quote above. Naturally speaking, human beings are born with 3 instincts; grabbing, suckling, and startling. From the moment of birth a baby will grab onto whatever touches it's palm, will attempt to suckle anything that touches it's cheek, and will startle to a loud noise. These are the only 3 universal responses in EVERY healthy child born in the world. These are the first 3 things they "test" for upon the birth of a newborn baby. NOT doing one of those 3 activities within minutes of birth is indicative of neurological or developemental issues.

Everything else is a learned response to specific stumuli. A "fear of snakes" is not an instinct, it is a learned response. A fear of heights is not an instinct in itself, but self-preservation IS and instinct, from whence the fear of heights, and most liekly the fear of snakes(through ignorance), is derived. The instinct is self-preservation. The fear is a learned response BASED on that ionstinct, but is not instinctual, itself. If it were, than native people's such as the Anasazi would never have existed. The "instinctual" fear of heights would have prevented them from creating their homes in the sides of 200 foot cliff faces. If a fear of snakes were "instinctual", indiginous people's of the Amazon Jungles would not have survived in harmony with the giant reptile species found there, nor would they have honored them as a deity.

In order for a response to be considered "instinctual", it needs to be universal to all members of the same species. Clearly, a fear of snakes and a fear of heights does NOT fit this criteria, therfor, it cannot be anything BUT a learned response.
 
I guess humans would be born with 4 instincts, not three. After re-reading my post, I felt the need to clarify, before jazzgeek catches it and gives me hell...;).
 
I found this thread pretty amusing. I recently had a similar conversation about this with my father last night. We went to Petsmart, and I took my normal, Mousetrap, along for the ride. He'll be sluggish in the car until he realizes that people are watching him, and he'll start to show off. He seems to love the attention, and doesnt mind being passed around to new faces, and hands to explore. He seems to especially love children, and calms down when he realized the hands holding him are quite smaller than normal. His temperment is astounding to people, they can hardly believe that a SNAKE of all animals can be a loving, gentle pet.

After we left the store, I looked at my dad and said, "it's strange how people act like they've never seen a snake before. I can understand the children, but adults?" And he said, "Not all of them HAVE seen snakes upclose and personal. Especially ones you'ren able to hold, and play with."

And some people, no matter how docile, and sweet ANY animal can be, they always have an irrational fear of animals. My brother hates my snakes. Claims he doesnt like them, and at one point flailed his arms and legs around while laying on his bed yelling "Get it off!" when there wasnt even a snake on him. Just the thought of the snake being on his body was enough to send him into convulsions... And he's 23 years old.

I was never much of a snake person myself. Afraid? never. I was more grossed out by the feeding procedure. I'm a huge animal rights activist, and even though it was NATURE, and perfectly normal in the snake world, i viewed it as inhumane... the thought of throwing a poor mouse into a cage where there is not chance of escape just horrified me, but a friend of mine changed all that when he introduced me to the world of pre-killed/frozen. I still think it's quite inhumane, and even though I'm fine with the thought of my OWN snakes eating mice, other snakes eating mice still make my skin crawl, haha.

The way I see it, people arent afraid of animals like snakes, or other reptiles you dont see every day because of the sheer fact they bite/can harm someone... It's the fact that people are afraid of what they dont know and what they dont understand. I've informed many people on the health care of snakes, and how amazing they can be as pets. I'm not into breeding them, maybe in the future, but at the point, it's not a business venture for me. I just love them, and when people see how well "behaved", and calm MT is, they understand that it IS a two way relationship. They dont think of snakes as being like cats or dogs... the more time you spend with them, the more they learn/learn to accept people... they just instantly see them as slimey, dangerous animals.

So now, whenever I go somewhere thjat involves pets, I make sure to bring Mousetrap along, to prove to people that snakes are NOT what they're made out to be - mean, dangerous, slimey, etc. They're amazing creatures.
 
Your story about Mousetrap and people who havve never seen a snake reminds me of a hiking trip with my bird. As we got back to the truck, Dillbird was still in the pack, and two children, maybe three and seven approached me. The seven year old girl told me she had never seen a bird! She really enjoyed petting Dill, who, fortunately, wasn't in a biting mood. (Yes, pigeons, the doves of peace, bite all the time.)

Nanci
 
I brought my corn, Sammi Snake, with me to work tonight. My boss, who is deathly afraid of snakes, ever since he was a little kid, commented on how she just seemed to be so mellow and trusting. He remarked that he never realized that a snake could be calm, settled, and comfortable with a person the way a dog or cat can be. It struck him profoundly that my snake seemed perfectly content to just hang out in my hand, regardless of what movements I made, where I was, how quickly I moved, or even when I was walking around holding her. He just never realized that snakes can become accustomed to certain activities and learn to "trust" their handlers, and know that they are not in any danger.

I think that there is an automatic response to distrust, or even fear, anything with which we have no experience and/or knowledge, and a HUGE part of people's fear of snakes is this fear of uncertainty. People are not educated as to how snakes repond to their environment, and so people become nervous about what a snake "might" do in a given situation. Obviously, this nervousness on the part of the human puts a certain amount of nervousness in the snake. If nothing involved in the situation is certain, bad reactions are bound to take place. People get nervous and respond negatively to something the snake does. This nervous reaction from the person causes a nervous reaction from the snake and a downward spiral of uncertainty begins.

But with education and experience, people, like us, learn how snakes respond to different stimuli, and we learn to treat the animals with love and respect, rather than nervousness. Therefore, we recieve trust from our snakes, because they have no reason to NOT be comfortable in our hands...
 
Two things

First, that bringing a snake to a pet store is such a good idea!! As long as I can make sure that our local petco allows it I'm going to start doing that!!

Second. The "scientific fact" part of my earlier post is truly scientific fact. My parent can't remember were they read the article about that but it was from a scientific journal. I couldn't find the article, or I don't think I found it, on line, but here's my argument.

WARNING: The following contains horrible ideas that may not be acceptable to some viewers.

First of all, it is completely true that our fears develop over time, but what are you scared of? Spiders are not a good example. How about fire, I mean a REALLY BIG, dangerous fire. Imagine (I know it's a horrible thought :eek1: ) putting a 9 month old baby in a house that was beginning to burn down. If no one else was there, do you think they would pick up on the danger of the fire all around them until they felt the pain of a burn or suffocation? I don't think they would, because most young children don't understand what is dangerous until they realize that everyone around them is scared, so they think they should be too. Without that influence, they would not be afraid.

This means you must have developed that fear over the years.

Know imagine holding a baby over a cliff (another horrible thought, sorry :eek: ). If you showed ABSOLUTELY NO EMOTION, and held the baby so that they HAD to look down, do you think they would be scared? I think so this time. I'm going on my instincts, but I'm guessing a lot of you would agree. Children may not notice the danger while running near the edge of a cliff, but as soon as they are over the edge they'd start to get scared.

The fire example makes perfect sense, and there is no "self-preservation" going on there. It's totally possible that your right, because, like almost all "scientific fact" this "fact" is probably being debated by many, many scientists, but I do think that what that article said about heights and snakes has some truth to it, but that truth may just be that people are more likely to DEVELOPE a fear of snakes. Who knows. :shrugs:

Oh and I'm so sorry for the horrible things I suggested above :crying: . How could I! :aw crap: I'm really a good person. Really!!

Please kids (wait, that's me!! :grin01: ) don't try that at home!!

Okay now happy thoughts!! Happy thoughts!! Lol

P.S. how many different smiles can YOU use in one post??
 
2 more quick things.

1, no more arguing!! Remind me I said that when I start arguing again.

2, I guess it was only 5 smileys in the last post, not too many.
 
tbtusk--

Never read the article you refer to, however, my information regarding humans and instincts comes from my psychology classes at Syracuse University, as well as from having a child.

The simple fact is, if you hold a snake in front of a baby that has never seen one, and you have a positive reaction to that snake, the child will not be afraid. Look at Steve Irwin and his family. In one instance, he is feeding a full grown crocodile with a small child in his arms. The croc jumps at the food, but the baby never flinches. Why? He has no reason to be afraid. He is taking his "cues" on fear from his father. His father shows no fear nor nervousness, and so his son follows suit.

If I am holding my daughter, and a snake approaches us, and I act afraid, she will, too. If I am holding my daughter and a snake approaches us, and I casually pick it up and hold it for her to see...she will react as I do.

In your example of the house fire, a baby will most likely be afraid only of the noise a house fire makes. I don't know if you've ever been inside a burning building, but it is an incredibly LOUD experience, and this intense, growling noise will definately startle a baby, and cause a fear response. This is the startling instinct I referred to above. Crying due to the heat and smoke is because of pain, not fear.

As for the fear of heights...my daughter has been rockclimbing since she was just under 2 years old. I can tell you with 100% certainty that she is not "instinctually" afraid of heights, because I ALWAYS become afraid for her LONG before she becomes afraid for herself. Over time and with the experience of falling, she may develope a fear of heights, but this fear is not instinctual in that it is not present at birth. A fear of heights is based on the cognitive ability to realize what *could* happen if you fall, and nothing more. Children do not have this ability, because they do not have the experience to know what *could* happen. But, if they DO fall and get injured, or SEE someone fall and get injured, this fear will develope.

The bottom line is this...Fear itself is an innate reaction in human beings. It is a response to elevated adrenaline levels which are induced due to external stimulation. It is the "Fight or Flight" response common to ALL species of animal, wherein something causes fear, and our body reacts. It is uncontrollable in this form, and is not induced by specific OBJECTS, rather it is induced by specific environmental stimulation. Snakes are not afraid of humans, per se. Snakes are afraid of being predated upon, and view humans as another form of predator, thus they react with fear. Change that experience with humans(like when they become pets), and the response changes.

Fear of OBJECTS is ALWAYS a learned response. As children we are not afraid of things until we understand the potential for PAIN from that thing.

Fear itself is the same reaction to different stimuli, universally, in the human species. While the stimulation that induces fear varies from person to person, the physiological indications of a fear response are the same.

So, it can be said that fear is an instinct, but fear OF an OBJECT is a learned response. We do not have to do anything to feel fearful in the right situation...that is innate and "instinctual", just like breathing. But the various objects that CAUSE fear will vary from person to person based on individual experiences with the same stumulus. Because of this variation, and this lack of universality, you cannot say that fear of an object is an instinct, because not every human will feel that fear response to the same objects.

Clear as mud? :crazy02:
 
Oh, and...I HAVE stood on the top of a cliff with my baby daughter in my hands, and she had no response. She didn't seem to be even aware of the potential danger. I think that placing the ability to recognize heights as dangerouse in children is wrong. I do not think that they have the cognitive resources to make that sort of association without the aid of an adult. If I were to stand on a cliff nervous and afraid with my daughter in my hands, she would feel the same way...but her fear would be a reaction to MY fear, not the cliff face. She would be afraid without cognitively knowing what it was that was causing my fear. Standing there comfortably with my daughter in my hands, showing no signs of distress, nervousness, or fear, I can say with 100% certainty, through experience, that she will show absolutely no fear...even now, at the age of almost three. She shows nothing more than interest and curiosity to seeing the cliff from this "new" perspective...definitely not fear.
 
Clear as mud! :grin01:

Well all I know is that article DOES exist, and was published, at least according to my parents (but really CAN I trust them??lol just kidding). I think you have the expertise in this circumstance, but I do still believe that some people are born more likely to be afraid of certain things (without the influence of other people's feelings) than others.
 
I don't doubt the existence of the article one buit. "Nature vs. Nurture" has been an ongoing debate in the psychological community since the days of Sigmund Freud, and will probably NEVER be solved. There are valid arguments to be made on both sides of the debate for a tremendous variety of situations ranging from personaltiy to sexualtiy and include such things as fear, hate, desire, "evil", compassion and all manner of human interaction.

The ONLY problem I have with your original post is in the statement, "Scientific Fact", as it is NOT a fact...it is a theory. It is a theory that is hotly debated among the psychological community, and HAS been hotly debated for going on 100 years or more. As I said, there are reasonable and valid arguments to support both sides of the Nature vs. Nurture issue(which is simply a debate of learned vs. instinctual) in almost every scenario.

However, there are certain "proven truths" in the issue. One of those truths(or "scientific facts") is that in order for a reaction to be classified as "instinctual" to a species, it must be a universal reaction from every HEALTHY member of the species, regardless of environment or upbringing. A failure to respond in the same manner as the rest of the specie, will lead to a conclusion of mental or cognitive disability or injury.

If a response cannot be proven to be universal throughout the species, it cannot be instinctual TO the species, and must, therefore, be a learned response.

So, yes...we DO agree. I just wanted to clarify your terminology, in as far as "scientific fact" is concerned. Yes, it is a scientific theory, and I am certain that the article DOES exist and DOES state what you claim it states. However, it is only a theory, as it is debateable, and fact is not debateable. A fact has been proven as infallable to this point, and can only be changed or disproved with the introduction of new information disproving either the universality or totalitarity of it's occurence.

That is the whole point behind scuientific theory. Theories are devloped before the research and study is complete. Facts are conclusions drawn FROM the research and studies thus far completed. Theories are what the studies are based on. Facts are based on the studies...
 
Okay, people, you all should have been in my psychology classes.

Do you every notice that one response from people is that snakes kill people and thats why they don't like them. I've heard that response. It's doesn't help when Discovery Channel stated that more people died from snake bites than shark attacks and then don't give numbers. People get this irrational fear that every snake has the potential of killing them. Tell them that there are more children mauled and killed by dogs then snakes and sharks put together and they won't believe you. Tell them that chimpanses can and do attack, kill and eat children and they won't believe you. We have to education people, one by one, that 80 % of the world's snakes are not hot and that without snakes we would be hip deep in rodents and our crops would not be enough to sustain us due to the uncontrolled rodent population.

Us weird ones must educate "them". I did not fear snakes but in the wild gave them a wide berth and respected them and their space. It wasn't until I held a co-worker's snake, Smoky (who we adopted along with a king) that I realized how smooth and silky they felt. Now, after have these two for over two months we see that each has their own personalities. Something one of "them" would not believe; until we show them.
 
Ya, well I had a fun experience when i got my first snake,a sweet, calm ball python named Splotch (creative huh). My mom and dad both caught snakes as kids and kept the wild ones as pets for a while. My step dad, on the other hand, was not terrified of snakes, but let's say they weren't his favorite animal. he learned.

He began warming up to Splotch, who sadly escaped a few years ago, and then we got Aurora, and he now has learned just how harmless and friendly some snakes are. i even surprised my mom when we got Raya and Flare and she figured out how different there personalities were. I'm also slowly converting my friends. If they come to my house, I at least mention my snakes. A few of them actually TOUCHED them. OOO, scary.

The next step is my step mom who has never met any of my corns, since she lives in Maine with my mom. She's going to have to learn when we have 2 clutches of corns living in the house. She hates the idea, having lived in Columbia for a year, where snakes are considered, and generally are very dangerous, but she hasn't objected to having the guys up there.
 
People with open minds generally warm up to snakes. I guess we all have to remember that we are living in a society where dogs, cats, birds and fish are the "normal pets".
 
Dale mentioned the following..

Why there aren't any stories of undocumented Canucks in the USA, being illegally put to work as housekeepers is beyond me.
Click to expand...

Wait, Jenn owns one of them.. Oh wait, I am Documented though, and house does not appeal to me often..

Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
Digging up an old-dead thread since I feel that there are a bunch of new people on this site since then and it would be neat to hear their stories. Here's mine:

I am known at work as "the snake lady" :p. During class (the first 8 weeks of my job) all I did was surf the cornsnake forums and that is where THAT started. People think it's insane that I keep snakes. A handful of them are accepting of the fact but one lady actually threw a fit and burst into tears (it literally took her 45 minutes to stop crying) after she saw my ad on the forums at work for a couple of cornsnakes.

Also, I photoshopped a "Colubrid Crossing" sign with all of my snakes on it for my cubicle and I purposefully put "Colubrid" and not "Snake" so that people would ask me about it and be more informed.

A lot of them can't believe that I have 5 cornsnakes, two bull snakes, and a ball python (not to mention 28 cornsnake hatchlings) so if I was a large-scale breeder and had 100+ people would probably wet themselves.

I am also not afraid of spiders. The girls at work (and even some of the guys) get me to "kill" the spiders they find... little do they know that I scoop them up, play with them for a minute, and then release them outside :grin01:.

Oh, and I don't feel like I am the stereotypical cornsnake owner either (whatever that is, someone please tell me, lol). I'll post a some pics of me below. I have no tatoos, and only my ears are pierced (which I regret and I never wear earrings unless they are clip-on/glue-on).

But yeah, I agree... everytime I mention that I have snakes people always give me that look (you know that look!) and are like "why??". My best friend even REALLY condescendingly tells me to knock it off and to stop being a freak or "the creepy snake lady". One time this guy at work wouldn't stop hitting on me so I asked my best friend if he thought I was a freak magnet, and he said "I dunno, you tell me, you creepy snake lady" lolz. (hmm, maybe I should demote him from "best friend" status, ha!)
 

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First of all, let me say WOW! Jadie!

I hang mostly with a tattooed crowd. Most of my friends were pretty stand offish at first, but are now coming around. They really love seeing Beatrix.

I rarely talk about my interest in snakes at work. But to my surprise most people I have talked to have seemed interested.
 
Jadie... you are quite the stunner yourself!!! As Rich mentioned and which I will concur whole-heartedly... WOW! :cool:

In regards to the topic... The people I work with have fun with the fact that I'm the "snake guy" here. They know not to kill anything and that if they call me, I'll come running to either relocate the venomous ones or keep the non-venomous ones for awhile to let the kids see that they're not "harmful" creatures.

The initial reaction the folks have is one of apprehension and fear, but after I have my chance at them (esp. if I'm holding one), they're usually apt to stay and watch. Case in point... earlier today, I brought my VBB and my High White Banded Cal King to one of the parks on campus... to try to get them some exercise on the grass there and get some pics with GREEN in them. One of my co-workers saw me, came out and admired the two of them... yet he was one of the ones that called me CRAZY or "wrong-in-the-head" for liking them and keeping them as pets. He sure liked the VBB though! LOL. His response is pretty typical.

Sorry for the ramble... LOL.
 
I guess I've always been kind of strange when it comes to animals, so it doesn't really surprise my friends or people who know of me that I'll catch and "play with" almost any kind of critter I can get my hands on. It's just an "Oh, that's typical Laura." But they also know that I'd never let anything hurt them, so if I said, "Touch this!" or "Check this out!", there's generally a, "Oh, uh... um. Alright?" The only person that hasn't worked on is my ex-boyfriend... Only liking cats and really ugly dogs (Boston terriers... eehhh.) does not constitute at liking animals, so, goodbye. Then again, I haven't yet tried it on my dad, but one day he's going to find out I've got two snakes... Probably when I have three or four... And I'm hoping that Santi will be big enough to not be wiggly, and then I can show my dad that snakes aren't scary, and that there's no need to fear them. He got over his fear of Ziggy, so maybe little Santi can help.

As for other snake owners, I unfortunately only know of two. The one person I do know... She's got an anery named Jazz, but I hardly ever talk to her... We're more acquaintances than anything, so we don't "talk snake." The other one has a red tail boa, but he's busy all the time, and he doesn't really want to talk to me... So, I don't know if there's a typical "snake owner" per se, but I'm sure they'd be like everyone here... So excited that they can't actually stop talking about snakes. Hahaha... I know I can't. I'm sure my few friends are totally sick of hearing "Santi this, Aggie that, Santi, Aggie blah blah..." My mom does get excited when I tell her that Santi poops, so I guess that's a start?

I did tell a guy with a rubber snake at a bar that I had two snakes, and he said he can't stand them... Yet he and his friends go on "adrenaline trips" such as white water rafting, bungee jumping, and sky diving. Real tough men, huh? It seems to me that girls are the ones that have the more open minds, except for maybe my roommate... She screams bloody murder at the sight of a roach. Then again, the only insects/creepy crawlers that scare me are wasps (only when they're on their nest and paying attention to me) and centipedes (I refuse to pick those up, but I think they're pretty neat).

So much for this post... Sorry about the length.
 
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