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My right to bear arms is under fire right now.

the_edsta said:
Interesting. Admittedly, I have not studied threat assessment. As an academic though, I would be interested in looking at data and evaluating the samples collected, the way 'violent minded people' is defined, and to what extent age and mental illness are addressed as variables. (my interest, of course, piqued by the events in newtown.)
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It's tremendously interesting to study. I spent time at FLETC, now I work part time as a trainer in addition to my normal 8-5 in private protective security. I train law enforcement and private security on threat detection and employee protection with in a corporate environment.

I eat, sleep and breathe ways to anticipate violence and stop it before it starts. There is no perfect science, most of it based on making yourself not present a target. Deterrence is the number one way to do it. Create a path of resistance and threats will start to dissolve. It's all about a realistic approach.

You don't have to go captain insane-o on things. Show a little resistance muscle in the form of guards (armed or not,) security cameras, access control and education for employees then BAM! You have just made yourself a very unattractive target for someone wanting to commit violence. The more places that do that, the less and less mass murder sprees will happen.

Violence is never going away. You have to report things/people you see that are wrong and post a good defense. It will never stop, but you can do a lot to keep it in check.
 
Nanci said:
Fixed that for you! Liberals are who _don't_ want anyone to have guns. To stereotype.
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Yes I see your point but I don't think all liberals feel that way. I am a liberal and I don't believe in gun control. The more bad that happens only convinces me more that I have the right to have a gun and use it should the need arise.
 
susang said:
Yes I see your point but I don't think all liberals feel that way. I am a liberal and I don't believe in gun control. The more bad that happens only convinces me more that I have the right to have a gun and use it should the need arise.
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My wife is in the same shoes. She is conservative, but hates guns, hates that I have them, and would rather see our house as a gun free zone. But, the more crap like this she sees on the news, the closer she gets to allowing me to take her out and teach her how to shoot. We will be starting small, like a 22 or something, but we will move up to the 9mm eventually.
 
the_edsta said:
Sorry rich, I respect you, but you are off here. People don't buy non-guns, polish them, shoot them, like them more than a steak dinner. I will move on in hours and think on a different subject. The obsession is a problem, if not for the gun owner, for the next generation watching (succinctly and timely: his children).
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The hell they don't. Sounds like you have never been to a Corvette car show before. :roflmao: And if you consider "putting the pedal to the metal" in a car the equivalent of shooting a gun for fun, well yeah, they (we!) do that too. When I take one of the vettes out for a ride, I clean it before leaving and then clean it when I get back. I'm sure this is incomprehensible to a lot of people, just as it was to me before owning my first vette. Heck, prior to getting interested in Corvettes, I learned that moss will grow on the north side of a vehicle if you don't wash it often enough. :rofl:

Nearly every hobby someone else has is an obsession that someone not having that interest will not understand. I would imagine that there is a real good possibility that YOU have an interest and/or hobby that I and others not having the same interest in might think was unnaturally obsessive and whacky, too. Heck, just today I was looking through a catalog and saw a display case for a wristwatch collection. Really? Never even crossed my mind to have an interest in something like that. But wanna bet that those people who DO, certainly spend their time polishing them and spending more money on the next one for their collection than a good steak dinner costs?

You would be surprised at what people will obsess over and collect, sometimes to the point of being a fanatic about it. Heck, I have BOXES of scale model Corvettes and I'm not even all that fanatical about it. Well at least I don't FEEL fanatical about it. There are lots of them I don't have and I certainly don't go out of my way to find them. But point of the matter is, it's probably an interest that someone not also sharing with me just will not comprehend and look askance at. Just as you apparently do not share the interest that some of us have with firearms. Heck, I had something like 37 Colt Pythons at one time. All of them different in barrel lengths and finishes and special edition models. And I also had a fairly extensive collection of foreign made military knockoff semiautomatic weapons. Yeah, I used to clean, oil, and polish them. Know why? Because the metal will RUST if you don't take care of them.

And you know what? Not once have I ever gone out to shoot up the people in a mall or school. And I've had guns for longer than some people here have been alive on this earth. Guns just do NOT make people do things like that. The person has to have the inclination in the first place, and then generally goes about getting what he feels he needs in order to satisfy that unnatural and mentally unbalanced urge. If someone is hell bent on killing people and getting their name on the front page of the newspaper, they certainly CAN do that with or without a gun in their hands.

Say, while I am thinking of it, has anyone done a study on those people who have committed these kinds of crimes to see what sort of medications that they have been taking? So many people are medicated for one reason or another these days, that it does make me wonder if there are unintended consequences starting to take place because of it. Something has definitely changed in how people THINK these days.
 
Outcast said:
My wife is in the same shoes. She is conservative, but hates guns, hates that I have them, and would rather see our house as a gun free zone. But, the more crap like this she sees on the news, the closer she gets to allowing me to take her out and teach her how to shoot. We will be starting small, like a 22 or something, but we will move up to the 9mm eventually.
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Interestingly enough, when Connie and I got married, guns were really never even mentioned. I had a .22 semi-auto pistol at the time, but I don't think I ever really even looked at it for the first year or so we were married. Not sure what brought it to the forefront, but for some reason I decided that I wanted something a bit more powerful to have around. So I didn't have a clue how she would react when I told her I wanted to get a handgun. To say I was shocked when she said "Good! As long as it's a .44 magnum!" is quite the understatement.

I still say that marrying Connie was the best thing I ever did in my life. :)

We still have that gun. A Smith & Wesson model 29 with an 8 3/8 inch barrel. Probably haven't shot it in 20 years now.
 
Rich Z said:
Say, while I am thinking of it, has anyone done a study on those people who have committed these kinds of crimes to see what sort of medications that they have been taking? So many people are medicated for one reason or another these days, that it does make me wonder if there are unintended consequences starting to take place because of it. Something has definitely changed in how people THINK these days.
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Interesting. I was just browsing around on another website I go to every now and again and this exact topic has come up there. I found this interview to be rather interesting.

 
Isn't the original topic of this thread about whether someone with a mental illness can legally own guns? If that person's illness involves violent thoughts and impulses, or dissociation from reality, or impaired judgement and impulse control, then my response would have to be a resounding 'No'.
Which has nothing at all to do with the current shooting, as the boy shot his mother and then used her legally owned guns for his further crimes.
 
They weren't legally owned once he killed his mother and stole her guns.
 
Chip said:
They weren't legally owned once he killed his mother and stole her guns.
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I still don't immediately connect his crime with the original post of this thread. I could get all reactive and stereotypical Brit and say if those guns hadn't been in his home he wouldn't have had such easy access to weapons and ammunition. but that's too symplistic a view. I know in this country the other family members are assessed before a gun permit is given, but shootings still happen. I can only hope that restricting gun ownership to unsuitable people in any country will reduce the overall availability of guns and their use in crime.
Combined with responsible ownership and storage, guns won't kill anyone, without it, they will become the tool to do so.
 
diamondlil said:
Isn't the original topic of this thread about whether someone with a mental illness can legally own guns? If that person's illness involves violent thoughts and impulses, or dissociation from reality, or impaired judgement and impulse control, then my response would have to be a resounding 'No'.
Which has nothing at all to do with the current shooting, as the boy shot his mother and then used her legally owned guns for his further crimes.
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My "mental illness" which I did not have before serving time in the military. Comes with some pretty bad consequences. Paranoia, Hyper-vigilance, and Anger issues, are just a few that many of the men and women who have PTSD now show. I have violent thoughts, I don't know anyone who has never wanted to choke the crap out of some idiot for doing something stupid (or what they perceive to be stupid). I also suffer from dissociative issues, I retreat into books and video games, or other projects. One of the things that I love to do is go out and shoot my guns. I find it all to be stress relieve. I also no longer react with feelings the way I used to. Usually the only feelings that I feel are anger and sadness or happiness, every once in a while I will cry for no reason at all. My body is constantly in Fight or Flight mode, so I cannot gain weight, I am as skinny as a rail.
For all of these issues that I suffer from, due to my time in war, I would never go on a mass killing spree. If I were to kill someone, it would be in the defense of others or myself. And, I hope that I never have to be in that situation again, whether using a gun, knife, or my bare hands in close combat. The thought of taking yet another human life, for any reason, scares the crap out of me, yet I would do it in a second, because I know where that dissociative part of me lives. The part that would allow me to take a life and not feel it until after the deed was done.

You see, I have a very soft heart. When I was a child I caught a wild rabbit and decided to keep it. It was small and had a few cuts on it. Well, the day I caught it I decided to hold it again. The poor thing literally jumped out of its skin, apparently it had been hit by a lawnmower. I looked and looked for it so I could put its skin back on, but couldn't find the little guy... 2 days later I found him and started crying my eyes out. I cry every time I see innocent lives taken, I may not show it on the outside, but I cry my heart out on the inside. I get angry and wish that I were there so that I could stop things like this from happening.

But, because of my mental illness, people state that I should not be able to have/purchase guns. Because I do have an anger issue. And, my anger is the reason that I do not carry a gun on my person, unless at the range, or hunting. I don't even carry a pocket knife. If I feel as though I am in danger, I can grab one of the hundreds of weapons that I see every day in back packs, on desks, on the road. There are few places that I have been in which there was nothing that I could immediately grab and use as a weapon.
But that comes from my military training, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome".

Edited to add: The only drug that I take for my condition is a blood pressure medication that helps with my anxiety in crowded places. I simply refuse to take anti-depressants, and other meds. I have a sensitivity to many medications and they usually just make the problem worse.
 
There are unlimited options available to someone who wants to do harm. You can walk into any Wal*Mart in my state and buy a long gun with no permit required, even though NY is the most strict state about handguns. A shotgun would do quick work in a crowded place. You can make a bomb from common items found around the house. You can start a fire. You can throw molotov cocktails. And on and on and on.

Do we start banning knives? Do we ban gasoline or alcohol because they're highly flammable and combustible if used as weapons? Banning guns won't stop people from hurting others. Banning alcohol during the Prohibition era didn't stop people from drinking. Banning certain drugs doesn't stop people from getting access to them. Banning cars would immediately stop drunk driving, but I don't see many politicians in favor of that.

Yes, I believe it would reduce crime if the average person couldn't get their hands on assault rifles or handguns as quickly and easily as they can today. Most psychopaths/shooters are just regular people before they snap and commit such acts of horror. However, having a blanket ban on guns is not the solution we need. Bans only affect people who abide by the law. We need to somehow change society so that people aren't driven to senselessly murder civilians. Your gun is only as good or bad as the person holding it.
 
Outcast said:
My "mental illness" which I did not have before serving time in the military. Comes with some pretty bad consequences. Paranoia, Hyper-vigilance, and Anger issues, are just a few that many of the men and women who have PTSD now show. I have violent thoughts, I don't know anyone who has never wanted to choke the crap out of some idiot for doing something stupid (or what they perceive to be stupid). I also suffer from dissociative issues, I retreat into books and video games, or other projects. One of the things that I love to do is go out and shoot my guns. I find it all to be stress relieve. I also no longer react with feelings the way I used to. Usually the only feelings that I feel are anger and sadness or happiness, every once in a while I will cry for no reason at all. My body is constantly in Fight or Flight mode, so I cannot gain weight, I am as skinny as a rail.
For all of these issues that I suffer from, due to my time in war, I would never go on a mass killing spree. If I were to kill someone, it would be in the defense of others or myself. And, I hope that I never have to be in that situation again, whether using a gun, knife, or my bare hands in close combat. The thought of taking yet another human life, for any reason, scares the crap out of me, yet I would do it in a second, because I know where that dissociative part of me lives. The part that would allow me to take a life and not feel it until after the deed was done.

You see, I have a very soft heart. When I was a child I caught a wild rabbit and decided to keep it. It was small and had a few cuts on it. Well, the day I caught it I decided to hold it again. The poor thing literally jumped out of its skin, apparently it had been hit by a lawnmower. I looked and looked for it so I could put its skin back on, but couldn't find the little guy... 2 days later I found him and started crying my eyes out. I cry every time I see innocent lives taken, I may not show it on the outside, but I cry my heart out on the inside. I get angry and wish that I were there so that I could stop things like this from happening.

But, because of my mental illness, people state that I should not be able to have/purchase guns. Because I do have an anger issue. And, my anger is the reason that I do not carry a gun on my person, unless at the range, or hunting. I don't even carry a pocket knife. If I feel as though I am in danger, I can grab one of the hundreds of weapons that I see every day in back packs, on desks, on the road. There are few places that I have been in which there was nothing that I could immediately grab and use as a weapon.
But that comes from my military training, "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome".

Edited to add: The only drug that I take for my condition is a blood pressure medication that helps with my anxiety in crowded places. I simply refuse to take anti-depressants, and other meds. I have a sensitivity to many medications and they usually just make the problem worse.
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So would you be taken as an individual case, evaluated as the unique person you are, or would you just be lumped into a category? I'm not for a second making any assumptions about you personally, just trying to bring the thread back to your original topic and away from current events.
 
diamondlil said:
So would you be taken as an individual case, evaluated as the unique person you are, or would you just be lumped into a category? I'm not for a second making any assumptions about you personally, just trying to bring the thread back to your original topic and away from current events.
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In this country, I would probably be lumped into a category with other people who's PTSD affects them more dramatically.
In fact, I have met at least 2 people who have already been added to the list that makes it illegal to sell weapons to them. These men are Veterans who, without their consent, the VA put them into the Fiduciary program, which is supposed to help protect their benefits, but has been used as an excuse by the government to keep them from purchasing firearms.... These men do not need the VA to help them with their finances, they are both married individuals. Yet, they were placed in the program... They also happen to suffer from PTSD.
I know I kind of sound like a conspiracy theorist when I say this, but it really feels to me as though the government wants to disarm its veterans, because we know how to use the guns we buy, most, if not all of us are also extremely anal about gun safety. I know I am, because I almost flew to Louisiana after my brother posted some pictures on facebook, I wanted to kick his and every one of my cousins that were with him in the balls, because they were not practicing proper muzzel safety, because the guns "weren't loaded". They all got a call from me and a thorough tongue lashing, including the one who was Law Enforcement at the time.
 
Thanks for that answer. Out of interest, are there statistics on veterans with PTSD and violent crime, showing that properly supported and reintegrated service veterans are any more likely to be involved? I know over here there is a high incidence of ex-sevicemen becoming homeless, suffering mental health issues and generally being excluded from society. Which makes any comparison with non-veterans on crime figures pretty well impossible to get without skewed results
 
So it sounds like folks have three solutions: arm more people, identify all the 'crazy' people and get them help before they turn violent or pray to god for a miracle.
 
The thing that bothers me is, if a vet is suffering from PTSD, or thinks he might be, if his right to bear arms is threatened if he is diagnosed with that condition, is he then a lot less likely to seek medical help? I would think so.
 
HeavenHell said:
So it sounds like folks have three solutions: arm more people, identify all the 'crazy' people and get them help before they turn violent or pray to god for a miracle.
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I honestly don't think there's a solution. Crazy people are by definition, crazy. Regulations and laws aren't going to stop them. Treatment isn't going to stop them. You just have to hope you or your loved ones don't ever meet up with a crazy person bent on destruction, and if you do, that you or someone else has the means to minimize the damage.
 
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