New controvesial topic... Is collecting corn snakes a "hoarding" behavior?

[ghosthousecorns]

OK real quick post because I have to go, but I have been thinking a little bit about this due to another forum post about "cat hoarders" and it just got me thinking. A lot of us joke about our corn snake addictions and being called "crazy snake lady" . But I sometimes wonder if the compulsion to own a lot of snakes could also be considered a type of "hoarding" behavior.
I will try to post some more thoughts on this later..

 

[tom e]

I think the difference between owning a lot of cats and hoarding, is when you get past the point where you have more than you can give basic care to. If we accept that as the difference (I'm not sure everyone will) it's pretty easy to be a snake keeper with many animals and not a hoarder, as they are relatively easy to care for...

 

[Camby]

Personally, I think most of the hoarders have the best of intentions but this is not always best for the animal. Many times the numbers of hoarded animals are so large that conditions are bad, ie. feces on the floor, not enough feeding, unplanned breedings, things like that. Again, the owner has the best of intentions because they truly love cats or dogs but just can't provide the adequate care for them.

So, that said, I think the same definition would apply. It stands to reason we all love our snakes or we would not keep them. So as long as I am not acquiring so many animals I can not maintain them properly then I wouldn't consider it hoarding. However, if I was stretched as far as I could go but still kept obtaining more and their health was suffering then yes I think that is hoarding.

Make sense?

dc

 

[Tula_Montage]

I deffinatley think some people genuinley do get addicted to buying new snakes. But I agree with Tom in that you can still have a large collection and take good care of them. I don't believe you can take PERFECT care ie clean poop whenever it hits the ground and change waterbowls religiously everyday when you have more than 30 snakes.

I was HORRIFIED when I read posts recently about people who have found dry waterbowls because they forgot to fill them up one week. I can't possibly imagine letting my snakes drink 2 day old stale water nevermind leaving it long enough for their water to completely evaporate. I have also never allowed the same snake to be sitting in a tub with multiple poops, that would mean not cleaning the first one days before!

I also think that new keepers are more likley to hoard snakes. I know when I started out I wanted more more MORE! Anything and everything. Now I have discovered exactly what I want from my snakes ie what species really interest me and have found my perfect number (which is currently at 19). If I had more than 20 I wouldn't have the time to handle each of them for 5-10 mins every day, clean poop everyday and change wateverbowls everyday. It takes me about an hour to scrub and disinfect each waterbowl everyday. But when the snakes immediatley go over to drink from a fresh cold bowl of water then it's worth it to me I also work 4 days a week and I am studying for a degree in mental health nursing the other 3 days so it's not like I have a lot of spare time. But I take the time and make the effort to care for my snakes to the best possible standard I can.

 

[starsevol]

OK real quick post because I have to go, but I have been thinking a little bit about this due to another forum post about "cat hoarders" and it just got me thinking. A lot of us joke about our corn snake addictions and being called "crazy snake lady" . But I sometimes wonder if the compulsion to own a lot of snakes could also be considered a type of "hoarding" behavior.
I will try to post some more thoughts on this later..

It might be...but it can't compare to cat hoarding. Many hobby breeders have alot of corns to be able to create new projects. A few of the projects I'm working on will require me to keep back alot of hatchlings. If not for the color morphs, I wouldn't have as many as I do now! I keep the numbers I do in hopes of creating something that few people have ever seen before.

Whereas cat hoarders are of the opinion that by taking in the cats, they are "helping" them.

Whereas we of the cornsnake addiction can get overwhelmed sometimes, we know we will get a rest when our lovelies are in brumation. Snakes owned by the addicted are usually in excellent health and are kept in good conditions.

Cat hoarders will many times get to the point where the cats are going hungry, or are infested with fleas, or are suffering from skin infections or upper respiratory infections. The cats never see a vet. Cat hoarders houses tend to smell strongly of ammonia and the living spaces are usually full of urine and feces. (Yeah, I watch Animal Planet LOL).

While you can say that 100 cats is the same as 100 snakes, the reasons behind the numbers and the living conditions of both the humans and the animals are what makes allllllllllll the difference!

 

[LBoz]

I haven't seen anyone on here that would make me think "hoarder." It's a true, medical condition. My entire family (mom, dad, brother, myself) has been diagnosed with OCD. It has manifested itself completely differently in each of us. My mom was a food hoarder. My father a "useless junk" hoarder. Both were raised during the depression, and growing up my mom would go days with very little to eat. Later in life after she and my father were divorced, she married a self-made millionaire. She never had to worry about being hungry, but her obsession was out of control. She literally had freezers full of food in the basement. If my brother or I would take something out, she would know and replace the item. When she died, we cleared them all out and there was meat and other things in them that was over ten years old.

I have obsessions, but not so much the compulsive aspects of the disorder. It's difficult, and I've also passed this on to my youngest child. Hoarders typically live in squalor. My father has every McDonald's styro cup he's ever received. It's crazy in my family, let me tell ya.

But! My motto is: better living through chemistry!!! Meds are a wonderful thing. :grin01:

Whew! I'm sure that was waaaay TMI for you fine folks! What were we talking about, again?

 

[The_Thunderer]

I get compulsive all the time, but I wouldn't consider myself a "hoarder". I realize that I'm not going to have the most or the best out there and know that there comes a point where the welfare of each animal will be diminished because I've crossed that point of balance.

I've reached a number (30) that seems to be right where I need to be. I know I may post that I am tempted by this or want one of that... but before I purchase, I now look realistically at the numbers and know that it is not possible to "get more".

I can't stand cats (just my preference)... so I can't speak to that. LOL.

 

[Druantia]

I think there is a definite difference between keeping and hoarding, and that limit is different for each person. If you can keep the "thing" in question (snakes, newspapers, cats, garbage, whatever) while maintaining a healthy living environment for all beings in your care, including yourself, and it does not prevent you from having healthy relationships with other human beings, its not a problem.

That being said however, I think some people get pets for the same reason they have children. They are unhappy and think that this new being, which will depend on them and love them unconditionally, will fill that void. Then when it doesn't work, they move on to the next one, and the next one. Next thing you know, you have 17 cats (or in our case, snakes). This is not to say that everyone with a lot of snakes falls into this category, I'm just saying that this is one reason a person might collect them.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Thanks for replies.
My question also came about from looking at my own collection and realizing at some point, I passed the point where I spend much individual time with each snake. While I do have my favorites, it is rare that I have them out just to handle, as a matter of fact I kind of manage the collection "by rack or group" so monday there is a certain bunch that will get food and attention and so on. Also at some point the genes they carry and their potential as breeders took priority over whether they are nice tame snakes.
Maybe I am questioning why I have so many.and why many others can't seem to stop at just one. I haven't reached the point where I have so many that their needs are not met, but maybe i AM reaching the point where it feels like enough is enough :shrugs:

 

[The_Thunderer]

I didn't think about this until your last post, Jen...

I think part of the desire for more is also "built in" to being part of a group... ie. this forum or others. When we share photos with each other, it is a pleasureable experience! As I've said more than once... when Elle (hope you don't mind being my "model" Elle!)posts pics of her Candoia or her Giraffe, I have to look and admire! Then I go and appreciate my own collection even more. Notice, though, that I haven't bought any Candoia of my own... although that temptation DID flare :devil01:up briefly. LOL.

The reason I bought my Luna (Leucistic Texas Rat) was 2 fold. I had one before which passed away due to "an act of God" (not that I'm blaming Him). About the same time I purchased him, JennRosefx purchased Worm. Worm is still around and GORGEOUS... and I was left with the feeling of what could have been. So I purchased Luna to fill a hole in my heart left by McLeod, and to see if she could look as good as Worm does now. A little selfish... maybe. But I'm only human. LOL.

I highly doubt, that I would have bought Luna if I did not get to see Worm from time to time. I'd probably still be kicking myself for something that I could not have prevented instead of enjoying Luna and my other snakes!

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Also with cats, the animals suffer from the lack of attention and the having to share territory with so many other cats, the animals rescued from these homes are often unsocialized and unadoptable. So even if they are fed and watered adequately their quality of life may be worse than a single pet cat that gets lots of interaction and love from its human. A snake doesn't really need to be "socialized" and handled. I do think there is something "hoardish" to this "corn snake addiction" - but maybe "hoarding" was a little too strong of a term to use.

 

[Hypancistrus]

Also with cats, the animals suffer from the lack of attention and the having to share territory with so many other cats, the animals rescued from these homes are often unsocialized and unadoptable. So even if they are fed and watered adequately their quality of life may be worse than a single pet cat that gets lots of interaction and love from its human. A snake doesn't really need to be "socialized" and handled.

I think this is key to this discussion. What do the animals need? My ONE dog needs and demands so much attention I sometimes think he will be the only dog I ever own (some people say adding another would reduce what he needs from me-- but it also adds poop and food bills!!). Same thing with my cat. If I don't spend time with them, they suffer.

My twelve snakes, on the other hand, are extraordinarily happy, probably even better off, if I don't handle them. Snakes tolerate handling, at best. Some of my snakes I don't handle at all because I know it stresses them so (my '08 babies, my albino Nelson's and my kenyan sand boa). They get fed at the required intervals, and I clean up their poops when they go (all are fed the same day, so poops are fairly regular!) and scrub water dishes out at least once per week, or as need be.

Needs vary for different species of animals. Keeping animals is a hobby I enjoy. If I can do so without diminishing their quality of life, and while increasing mine, then I think that's a good thing.

*pulls snakes towards herself, hovering over them* Alllll mine.... my precioussssss.......

*coughs* Ahem. Sorry. :sidestep:

 

[jpccusa]

I think the difference between owning a lot of cats and hoarding, is when you get past the point where you have more than you can give basic care to.

I think you nailed it with this sentence Tom. And remember that basic care also includes the attention required by the animals, not only shelter, food, and hygiene.

 

[Drizzt80]

Yes.

D80

PS. What the heck is this 10 characters garbage? I don't need 10 characters to answer this question!!

 

[jpccusa]

Yes.

D80

PS. What the heck is this 10 characters garbage? I don't need 10 characters to answer this question!!

Brent, if you had said "Yes. D80.." you would be good. :roflmao:

 

[SnakesRule1234]

My twelve snakes, on the other hand, are extraordinarily happy, probably even better off, if I don't handle them. Snakes tolerate handling, at best. Some of my snakes I don't handle at all because I know it stresses them so (my '08 babies, my albino Nelson's and my kenyan sand boa). They get fed at the required intervals, and I clean up their poops when they go (all are fed the same day, so poops are fairly regular!) and scrub water dishes out at least once per week, or as need be.

Well, I guess I still don't understand, if the thing you keep doesn't have "emotions" (you can't tell if a snake is sad or happy- anger and fright are the only emotions they show, I guess) and would be better off without you, why do you have it?

I was thinking about this, and I figured, I don't think it's fair for Spike and my other pets to be kept in a cage their whole life. I guess I kind of think that any animal would be better off without us, and if we were the pets we wouldn't appreciate being closed in a box out whole life, never knowing whats on the outside.

 

[jpccusa]

Well, I guess I still don't understand, if the thing you keep doesn't have "emotions" (you can't tell if a snake is sad or happy- anger and fright are the only emotions they show, I guess) and would be better off without you, why do you have it?

I was thinking about this, and I figured, I don't think it's fair for Spike and my other pets to be kept in a cage their whole life. I guess I kind of think that any animal would be better off without us, and if we were the pets we wouldn't appreciate being closed in a box out whole life, never knowing whats on the outside.

I don't agree that snakes just show anger and fright... First, their bites are not out of anger. I would say they are mostly defensive. Second, snakes show curiosity, as an example of a different emotion.

Many animals have longer lifes in capitivity than in the wild... If I try to apply the same analogy for humans, I shouldn't be enclosed in this office for 9 hours everyday, but still, that's how I will spend most of my life.

The most important thing is to give the animals you keep the best life possible.

 

[SnakesRule1234]

I don't agree that snakes just show anger and fright... First, their bites are not out of anger. I would say they are mostly defensive. Second, snakes show curiosity, as an example of a different emotion.

Many animals have longer lifes in capitivity than in the wild... If I try to apply the same analogy for humans, I shouldn't be enclosed in this office for 9 hours everyday, but still, that's how I will spend most of my life.

The most important thing is to give the animals you keep the best life possible.

Either way, you never truly know if a snake is happy, do you?

I don't think it really matters in their lives are longer in captivity... I think the best life for animals would be in the wild- like they were ment to be... kind of.

But, to each his own.

I don't want to argue, it's just my view...

 

[bekers71]

Hi..ummm..my name is Becky and I'm a snake hoardaholic. I am completely addicted to collecting and hoarding snakes. It all started a long time ago when I saw this one snake at.....:sidestep:

 

[sober_serpents]

well, i have 13 cats, 3 dogs and over 100 snakes... people think i am a hoarder... but none of my cats are "wild" they all have their mommy and daddy times... heck- most of them sleep in the bed with us... sometimes i wake up with 5 or more cats on or near me...