• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

New Eyelash Viper!! DUW...

I wanted to add...All of our North American viper bites are treated with CroFab...a poly-crotalant anti-venom. I am unsure of the relationship between Polyvalant and CroFab, but in the case of a bite, it might not be a bad idea to invest in an on-hand stock of anti-venom...just to be safe.

The information below is taken directly from the Toxinology.com page, and *should* allow you to order Polyvalant Antivenom from the manufacturer:

1. Antivenom Code: SAmICP01
Antivenom Name: Polyvalent Antivenom
Manufacturer: Instituto Clodomiro Picado T.
Phone: ++506-229-0344; ++506-229-3135
Address: Facultad de Microbiolgia
Universidad de Costa Rica
San Pedro, San Jose
Central America
Country: Costa Rica
 
Well cro-fab works on copperheads and cottonmouths right? But it is named after crotalus
 
Well cro-fab works on copperheads and cottonmouths right? But it is named after crotalus

Yes, it is used for cottonmouths and copperheads. The venom properties of Agkistrodon is incredibly similar to the venom properties of Crotalus. CroFab works for all the ssp. in the Agkistrodon family found in North America. It is effective against their venom, however, it is generally not needed for treatment, as symptomatic treatment is typically enough, and fatal bites are unlikely...but still possible.

As a PERSONAL DECISION...I would not want CroFab used in the case of a copperhead bite. However effective it may be, the possibility of allergic reaction is fairly high, while the untreated fatality rate is non-existent. For a copperhead, I would probably take my chances with minor necrosis, rather than the potential for systemic failure from allergic reaction to CroFab. This is a PERSONAL DECISION I have made after researching the probability of a fatal bite vs. the probability of a fatal reaction.

DISCLAIMER!!! I have read the reports on the use of CroFab for Agkistrodon bites, and it appears that more damage has been caused by improper treatment than by the bites themselves. My decision is based on my own personal perception of the risks involved and is NOT meant to be advice given, nor a recommendation made to anyone on this forum. THIS IS A PERSONAL DECISION.
 
I think I said something like that while back but lets not bring that up. Copperheads actually have a very very very very very low LD50 rating. I mean I have heard of Copperhead bites rotting a finger to nothing and causing minor swelling and pain. I think it depends on the persons Hight, weight, age, Etc
 
Meg stunning little snake, those and Atheris are my favs... I'm sooo jealous.... LOL
The bite off one isn't too bad, but obviously it's something to avoid... I wouldn't invest in anti venom, it needs to be administered by a doctor and if the states are anything like the uk, doctors won't use your medication only their own.... You could inform the local hospital you have it, that might help.... I would get compression bandages and an epipen though..... That would be a smart move.....
All that aside, arboreal hots are different to handle than ground dwellers..... And watch how you open the door to it.... They can strike around corners... LOL
Brilliant choice though..... I'd love one, when the time is right... A mate of mine breeds them, and said he has one for me when I am ready.....
Congrats once again.....
 
NO! No compression bandages for viper bites. Viper bites contain haemotoxins, and compression bandages can isolate the venom to a small, restricted area, actually concentrating the effects and increasing the likely of permanent damage. Yes...it would be to a smaller area. But the concentrated haemotoxins can work more vigorously and aggressively in a confined area.

David-
What you said was that copperheads are relatively harmless and that you didn't need to worry about it. COMPLETELY different than what I said...

You never acknowledged the potential for fatal bites, nor did you acknowledge the probability of necrotic damage nor the possibility of systemic reactions in extreme envenomations. You made the claim that copperhead bites were nothing to worry about. They ARE something to worry about, and as general advice EVERY NA viper bite should be treated as potentially fatal. There is not a single NA pit viper that is "harmless". They should never be treated as such. My statements are COMPLETELY different than the statements you made "back then".

You like picking at scabs to see if you can open a wound? Or are you still "just kidding" because it's April Fool's Day?
 
NO! No compression bandages for viper bites. Viper bites contain haemotoxins, and compression bandages can isolate the venom to a small, restricted area, actually concentrating the effects and increasing the likely of permanent damage. Yes...it would be to a smaller area. But the concentrated haemotoxins can work more vigorously and aggressively in a confined area.
DYK... I never thought of that..... Nice one. Thats given me something to think about...
 
I have heard that a compression bandage is good to use! That is good to know if I ever get bit field herping. Thanks Chris
 
What a fantastic new addition Meg! I think eyelash vipers are some of the most beautiful snakes ever - although something I have no plans to ever get into. I will just live vicariously through your updates of this adorable little bugger!
 
I have heard that a compression bandage is good to use! That is good to know if I ever get bit field herping. Thanks Chris

There are different schools of thought. Older field guides and medical guides recommended compression bandages as a way of limiting the amount of venom that makes it from a limb into the main bloodstream, where it could potentially cause more extreme damage.

More recently, it has been said that compression bandages on pit viper bites work well to localize damage, but concentration of the haemotoxins actually cause more severe damage to the isolated area.

A bite from a Panamint rattler is typically not lethal, though lethality cannot be eliminated. Concentrating the venom to the hand could cause MASSIVE tissue and muscle loss. By allowing the venom to "course", it actually dilutes the venoms, and *should* cause less violence in the reaction. It may attack a broader area of tissue, but it does so with less intensity. Of course...this is a theory...

Small area of massive damage or larger area of lesser damage. Lose your hand completely, or have limited movement, but use of, your whole arm. Tough choice to make in the moment, so have a protocol in place...

Compression bandages work well with Elapid bites and neurotoxic venoms where the goal is to prevent the venom from attacking the major systems of the body. Isolating a neurotoxin in the arm *may* cause necrosis and tissue damage...but it prevents the venom from reaching the respiratory system or circulatory system where it can be fatal.

Small area of necrosis and limb loss or death. A MUCH easier choice to make...
 
Wow I never knew you knew so much about venom first aid! When I go on mission trips for church we life lots of boards and we use an old field guide for snake bite could you post an in depth thread about venom treatment
 
Wow I never knew you knew so much about venom first aid! When I go on mission trips for church we life lots of boards and we use an old field guide for snake bite could you post an in depth thread about venom treatment

No, I can't. I am not a medical expert, nor am I an herpetologist or a venom expert. Too many people might mistake my opinion for medical fact, and it simply isn't. It's a theory. Granted, it is a theory that has been discussed in the scientific community, and one which I hold true for myself...but a theory, none-the-less.

What you need to do is sit down with a doctor that has treated envenomation, read as much as possible about different venom properties, and what the effects of treatment are on you're body, and set a protocol in place for if/when you get bitten.

I have talked with Wilderness EMT's, venom specialist doctors, ER doctors, snake lovers, and long time field herpers. I have discussed treatment options with all of them, especially the ones that were bitten. I have protocols in place in the event I am bitten based on these discussions, and on what I have read online.

For emergency response to a crotalus or agkistrodon bite, it's simple...be calm, get to the hospital. Do not do ANYTHING to the wound or bite site. You can use clean, bottled water to rinse any surface venom away, but do not rub the bite site. Do not try to suck the venom out. Do not apply compression. Do not attempt to cut the bite site to remove venom. Do not apply ice.

In short...don't do anything but get to a hospital as quickly and as calmly as possible.

The reality is simple...most NA viper bites do not prove fatal with treatment. Most of the methods described in older field guides for field treatment have proven to cause more damage than good. For example...sucking out the venom can rupture blood vessels, which allows the venom to actually get into the blood stream through multiple sites. Same is true for cutting the bite site. Rubbing the bite site to clean off the wound actually massages the muscles and blood vessels, creating a faster flow of blood and quicker spread of venom. Applying compression we discussed. Applying ice causes a restriction of blood flow which causes similar effects to compression.

The best thing to do is to remain calm, call ahead to the hospital to inform them you have been bitten and by what, and get to the ER asap.

This is true of NA vipers. Obviously that does not include coral snakes, or South American pit vipers. It would be wise to research these animals on your own. Toxinology.com is a fantastic site by the University of Adelaide in Australia, and contains a tremendous amount of information, based on species, about venom toxicity, properties, potency, volume, fatality, and treatment, including emergency first aid. I suggest anyone dealing with hots in captivity or in the field become familiar with it.
 
Actually the most updated version of medical treatment for the schlegelii is compression bandage about as tightly applied as for a sprain between the bite and the heart. I.E. Bite on the hand, wrap the arm above the hand to the elbow. Ice is not recommended. Wyeth labs Crotalidae Polyvalent Antivenom is what's listed and our local hospitals carry crotalus crofab for the crotalus species we have here. The medical treatment lists the treatment for all Bothrops type vipers. I have all pages posted in my protocol book and my medical information as well. I try not to work with the hots unless I have someone here at the time. I won't work alone with the animal as much as possible. It might be unavoidable at some point, but right now, that's not a problem. I also keep the phone with me and have the snake hooks at the doorway in case I open the door and there's a friend waiting on the floor. No sense having the hooks on the other side of the snake! Hopefully I'll never have to worry about it as I am as careful as I can be. However, crap happens and you need to plan for that.
 
I myself will never keep hots, but OMG is he CUTE !! Wish those were non venomous!! :)
Please keep posting pics, it would really be nice to see how he grows up.


No, I can't. I am not a medical expert, nor am I an herpetologist or a venom expert. Too many people might mistake my opinion for medical fact, and it simply isn't. It's a theory. Granted, it is a theory that has been discussed in the scientific community, and one which I hold true for myself...but a theory, none-the-less.

Apparantly there are quite some people here that keep venomous snakes or would like to, and would be interested. I can surely understand you don't want to give a wrong impression in such an important subject, but it does seem you did a lot of research and have a lot of knowledge about this.
If you give a firm warning about things being your personal opinion and advice on further searching for additional info, wouldn't your theory's be a good basis of the subject? In this case mostly for the "would like to keep hots"-part of the group I suppose, as the ones that already have them most likely already did research.

Just a thought here. As I said, hots aren't the snakes for me, so it's an outsider idea :)
 
Miami / Dade County in Florida has a very well established, emergency snake bite response team. They have given talks at some of the Florida herp meetings as well. I haven't read their whole website, but I would expect it has some useful info, considering the depth of their talks that I have attended. It is here, if you want to take a look:

http://www.miamidade.gov/mdfr/emergency_special_venom.asp
 
They are listed on my protocol book as well as physicians who specialize in treatment of snakebite.
 
Ooooh, man! How cool! Eyelash Vipers and Copperheads are my favorite hots... and the ELV's would be seriously tempting. Luckily, MD law makes it a no brainer. Looking forward to more pics of yours though!
 
Contortrix is my other favorite, but they will have to wait for a better room with more room! I just have too small a house....and need a whole separate snake house. Sigh...next home...we'll design, and an extra snake house out back will be part of it. Who says you need a mother-in-law house?
 
Back
Top