'New' morphs from Charles Pritzel's book

[JFDery]

I'm curious as to why "T+ albino" is more "useless" than the term "ultra"?

I know that "ultra" is the accepted trade name of the morph in cornsnakes, but...T+albino is a FAR more accurate and descriptive term, in every avenue of snakes wherein it is used.

If you ask me, the made-up word "ultra" is FAR more useless than the more scientific name of "T+albino"...

I mean really...for people that get so worked up about accuracy and usefulness...you would think that accurately descriptive words would be preferred to made-up jangle. In other words..."a form of alibnism that still produces a variable amount of melanin-like pigment due to the presence of tyrosinase"(T+albino) is WAY more accurate than "better than normal"(ultra).

The term T+albino is not a useless term, it is an accurate and descriptive term of what is most likely happening with the ultra gene. Just because it isn't the "accepted trade name in cornsnakes" does not in any way make useless or inaccurate...:nope:

How do you explain that T+ is more accurate than Ultra? Even if Ultra is a trade name, it still designates a specific phenotype, which can easily be described as a type of hypomelanism (in the generic sense, ie. reduction of melanin production). In a sense, it is accurate to say that Ultras are tyrosinase positive EVEN if you didn't run a test, since otherwise you wouldn't see any melanin. In other words T+ is the normal result for anything that produces melanin. So in that sense, it brings no more useful information than ultra, or hypomelanism, or ultra-hypomelanism.

If you were to test an amelanistic mutant as tyrosinase positive, then T+ is useful information: it tells you the cause of amelanism is NOT due to a failure to produce tyrosinase, which would be exceptional.

If you were to test an animal that is not amelanistic (such as Ultra or any morph that has melanin) as tyrosinase negative, then you again have very useful (and NEW) information.

T+ is a way to note the result of the L-Dopa test, it's not a color or melanin intensity. For these reasons, personally, I would avoid using T+ to describe anything else than a tested T+ amelanistic animal or tested T+ individual that has such diminished melanin that it’s not clear if were dealing with amelanism or not. This is actually how it's used in mammalian studies (including human dermatology) and mainly for two reasons: 1- mammalian coloration is essentially melanin; 2-phenotypical differences between individuals producing extremely low quantities of melanin and absolutely none are not always so obvious. Detecting tyrosinase activity with an L-Dopa test is easier, faster, and more economical than identifying cutaneous melanins.

 

[Kokopelli]

On the whole T+ Albino is simply a paradox of a term and I think it really shouldn't be used.
The definition of Amelanistic is -without- melanin. Not some, not just a sip- nada.
It -may- hold to true paradox but again, once there's melanin the term Amelansitic shouldn't be used.

I don't think that a morph's trade name should actually reflect the hereditary traits/strength of the gene. Else you want to name Lavanders by the purple pigment or however that works.

Let's face it, people who aren't into genetics can be snake keepers.

The term T+ Albino is wrong, cause it ain't albino. The melanin may be present or reduced by any number of factors. However, once it's there, it ain't an albino anymore

 

[mike17l]

On the whole T+ Albino is simply a paradox of a term and I think it really shouldn't be used.
The definition of Amelanistic is -without- melanin. Not some, not just a sip- nada.
It -may- hold to true paradox but again, once there's melanin the term Amelansitic shouldn't be used.

I don't think that a morph's trade name should actually reflect the hereditary traits/strength of the gene. Else you want to name Lavanders by the purple pigment or however that works.

Let's face it, people who aren't into genetics can be snake keepers.

The term T+ Albino is wrong, cause it ain't albino. The melanin may be present or reduced by any number of factors. However, once it's there, it ain't an albino anymore

Ditto!!!!!

 

[TandJ]

Sunkissed is a hypo? With the solid black belly checks.. I think of it as more of a pattern modifier, rather than a hypo like gene.. *shrugs*

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Skyespirit86]

So should we call every other form of hypo (hypo A, sunkissed, lava, ect) T+ albino?

Ultra is a form of hypomelanism, it is located on the same locus as amel, it is not a form of amelanism.

Wel it's not proposterous. It would be as case of T+ albino type 1, T+ albino type 2....just like when you say anery a, aneryb, anery c....

I looked up reticulated python morphs earlier and found there are several, I think 3 tyes of albino, which may be calld type 1, type 2 and blond (I think), but people in other places, including NERD also call them T+ and T- albinos depending on whether melanin is being produced or whether it is the bright yellow and white, pink eyed kind (which are amel I suppose?). The blonds look like hypos to me- loads of colour left so will be T+ I suppose, and the kind that produce lavenders produce them in unpredictable numbers and shades of purplyness, with some coming out with no lavender at all- the lavender being caused by varying amounts of melanin production, I am assuming, they are T+.

 

[tyflier]

"T+albino" and "amelanistic" are two different mutations...

Amelanistic means that melanin production is stopped...somehow. There is no melanin produced.

T+albino simply means that melanin production is disrupted, but tyrosinase is still present.

Without tyrosinase(T- or amelanistic) there simply is zero oxidation of the tyrosene, creating a truly amelanistic animal.

With tyrosinase present, there is oxidation of tyrosene, though at a highly reduced amount due to some other "obstruction". In other words..."hypomelanistic".

The term "albino" simply means abnormally reduced pigmentation. Hypo is abnormal. So is anery, amel, axanthic, and all the other color-reduced mutations we see. They are ALL one form of albinism or another...

A "Purple Albino" reticulated python is T+. And frankly...the pigment produced is eerily similar to the pigment produced by an ultra cornsnake. To the eye, the color of the pruple albino retic and the color of an ultra corn are incredibly similar...only varying by degrees.

If ultra is represented as "++", amel is represented as "--" and Ultramel is represented as "+-", it would be the same representation that we see in the Clark strain of albino reticulated pythons...3 distinct looks coming from the same line of animals.

An Ultra corn (++) has more melanin than an Ultramel(+-), which has more melanin than an amel (--). They way I see it, it is just as likely to be "homo T+", "het T+ het. T-", and "homo T-" as any other manner you choose to describe it. Until scientific evidence shows otherwise...whose to say? :shrugs:

But really...don't expect me to care too much...they are all simply words, and NOTHING has been proven, one way or the other, so...a full blown debate about what *could be* is a pointless mess. At least until something real and proven is known about these traits beyond what the eye sees...it's ALL conjecture...

 

[tyflier]

...In a sense, it is accurate to say that Ultras are tyrosinase positive EVEN if you didn't run a test, since otherwise you wouldn't see any melanin. In other words T+ is the normal result for anything that produces melanin. So in that sense, it brings no more useful information than ultra, or hypomelanism, or ultra-hypomelanism....

I agree with you...100%. That is actually the point I was trying to make. Calling it "T+ albino" means, precisely, that melanin is produced at an abnormally low amount...which, if you ask me, PERFECTLY describes the phenotype of Ultra corns.

But as I said above...we haven't run ANY tests on ANY of our mutations in cornsnakes, so...why should Ultra/T+ albino be any different? :shrugs:

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

There is a thread posted here on CS.com that has information on the medical problems associated with the scaleless defect.

I'll probably regret putting this reply out without reading the rest of the thread, but the thread you mentioned didn't really have any proof of medical problems did it? I think most of the people were making suppositions, and they didn't have actual experince with keeping the animals? Perhaps I need to go and dig it up again and stop being lazy....

When talking to Brian at BHB he said there was nothing different about them at this point and they seem normal in every way. I am faster to take advice from someone like him with actual hands on experience with the animals, than some zealot who has nothing but ideas and guesses to go on. Although, I do keep in mind that Brian is also the one selling them, at quite a high dollar so he has a vested interest perhaps in convincing someone they are perfect in every way... I am certainly curious about them and would like to see for myself <ie. keep one or two> and I plan on releasing any and all findings I have on them, good and bad whichever shows up!

I don't know right now if I will breed them, until I can make my own observations though, so don't worry, I'm not just jumping on the money bandwagon

Rebecca


ps- Triple moon, I don't think I've posted anywhere yet, I think your avatar is ADORABLE and it's been so neat to hear you speak of your pregnancy and now having your son! Congrats!

 

[JFDery]

I agree with you...100%. That is actually the point I was trying to make. Calling it "T+ albino" means, precisely, that melanin is produced at an abnormally low amount...which, if you ask me, PERFECTLY describes the phenotype of Ultra corns.

But as I said above...we haven't run ANY tests on ANY of our mutations in cornsnakes, so...why should Ultra/T+ albino be any different? :shrugs:

I think this is where we disagree the most. "T+ albino" does not mean, precisely, that melanin is produced at an abnormally low amount. "T+" means that Tyrosinase activity can be detected by running an L-Dopa test. "T+" is how you write down the result, it does not have any quantitative implication other than present, not present. You could have a truely amelanistic snake that tests positive (T+) in a Dopa test, but this situation is less common. As far as what is known of lower vertebrate oculocutaneous pigmentation, Tyrosinase negative mutants could not be anything but truely amelanistic. The situation may be different in mammals or birds.

Until scientific evidence shows otherwise...whose to say?

I'm not sure what scientific evidence you are asking for. If you're talking about the relation of tyrosinase and melanin production, I think there is plenty of evidence already. L-Dopa test is not new.

It's very likely that Ultra has less tyrosinase activity than the wild type, but determining if Ultra is T+ or not will not help you to find that out as wild type will also test positive. For that, you need to quantify (not detect) tyrosinase enzymatic activity in fresh tissue and that is a completely different game. Although this would be an extremely interesting project, I don't think it would make renaming Ultra for T+ albino any more accurate or descriptive of what the eye sees.

 

[tyflier]

I think this is where we disagree the most. "T+ albino" does not mean, precisely, that melanin is produced at an abnormally low amount. "T+" means that Tyrosinase activity can be detected by running an L-Dopa test. "T+" is how you write down the result, it does not have any quantitative implication other than present, not present. You could have a truely amelanistic snake that tests positive (T+) in a Dopa test, but this situation is less common. As far as what is known of lower vertebrate oculocutaneous pigmentation, Tyrosinase negative mutants could not be anything but truely amelanistic. The situation may be different in mammals or birds.

Say it with me..."T+ albino". "Albino" is a word used to describe an animal with an abnormally reduced amount of pigmentation. The phrase "T+ albino" indicates an animal that is T+ and has an abnomrally reduced amount of pigment...which in cornsnakes would most likely look exactly like an Ultra, whether ultra tests T+ or not...

I'm not sure what scientific evidence you are asking for. If you're talking about the relation of tyrosinase and melanin production, I think there is plenty of evidence already. L-Dopa test is not new.

I'm looking for the scientific evidence that supports your claim that ultra cornsnakes are not T+ albino, and that the term T+ albino is "useless". I know what "T+" means and I know what "albino" means. I also know what "T+albino" means. I'm referring to the evidence that supports the claims being made that T+ albino is an inaccurate and useless term...

It's very likely that Ultra has less tyrosinase than the wild type, but determining if Ultra is T+ or not will not help you to find that out as wild type will also test positive. For that, you need to quantify (not detect) tyrosinase enzymatic activity in fresh tissue and that is a completely different game. Although this would be an extremely interesting project, I don't think it would make renaming Ultra for T+ albino any more accurate or descriptive of what the eye sees.

You're missing the most important part of the term again, here..."T+ albino". Of course a wild type snake is T+...but it's not albino. See how that works? If you're going to refute the use of a term, you need to refute the WHOLE term, not just the parts you WANT to refute. The term being called "useless" is "T+ albino"...not "T+" and not "Albino", but rather "T+ albino". When used as a whole, it connotates an entirely different meaning...one which is just as fitting and accurate based on all scientific evidence as Ultra...

 

[JFDery]

Say it with me..."T+ albino". "Albino" is a word used to describe an animal with an abnormally reduced amount of pigmentation. The phrase "T+ albino" indicates an animal that is T+ and has an abnomrally reduced amount of pigment...which in cornsnakes would most likely look exactly like an Ultra, whether ultra tests T+ or not...

I'm looking for the scientific evidence that supports your claim that ultra cornsnakes are not T+ albino, and that the term T+ albino is "useless". I know what "T+" means and I know what "albino" means. I also know what "T+albino" means. I'm referring to the evidence that supports the claims being made that T+ albino is an inaccurate and useless term...

My claim was not that T+ Albino for a hypomelanistic phenotype is inaccurate, and actually said that I agree that Ultras are albinos (following the definition of albino you use) and that they are surely Tyrosinase positive. I disagreed that T+ Albino is FAR more accurate and descriptive than ultra (considering Ultra has been described as a hypomelanistic phenotype) and I said it doesn’t bring any new information. As someone else mentioned in this thread, T+ albino by itself could be any kind of hypomelanistic phenotype, which is why I don’t think it is MORE accurate than the other terms we use for hypomelanistic phenotypes. You are using “albino” as a word to “describe an animal with an abnormally reduced amount of pigmentation”. Some people use it as a synonym for amelanistic, others as reduced or absent melanin pigment. I’m not even interested in debating on which definition is the right one, but each of them have different implications in the use of the term “T+ albino”. I have no problem with any of those “albino” definitions as long as the author does not imply that his definition is the only valid one, and if the author is consistent in his (her) use of the term. I personally favour terms like hypomelanism or amelanism over albinism when it’s possible. But that’s me.

It’s obvious we have a different view on this and I would be pleased to discuss it further, but on a different tone.

T+albino is a FAR more accurate and descriptive term, in every avenue of snakes wherein it is used

You're missing the most important part of the term again, here..."T+ albino". Of course a wild type snake is T+...but it's not albino. See how that works? If you're going to refute the use of a term, you need to refute the WHOLE term, not just the parts you WANT to refute. The term being called "useless" is "T+ albino"...not "T+" and not "Albino", but rather "T+ albino". When used as a whole, it connotates an entirely different meaning...one which is just as fitting and accurate based on all scientific evidence as Ultra...

 

[toyah]

I had assumed t+ albino was fanciers' shorthand for referring to an albino locus mutation that did not result in a complete lack of tyrosinase. For example in cats Siamese is a tyrosinase positive albino, it's a mutation at the C (albino) locus that results in an animal that is not tyrosinase negative...

 

[Kokopelli]

I have to disagree with some of the statements here.
By definition: "Albino- A person or animal lacking normal coloring in the eyes, hair, and skin due to a hereditary inability to produce the skin pigment melanin. The condition itself is called albinism."
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/albino

As such, the term Amelanistic refers to the state of Albinism.
And due to that fact, -any- morph that simply exhibits lesser degrees of melanin- regardless of the cause, and genetic locus, can and should be addressed as Hypomelanistic- reduced levels of melanin.

I think that changing the accepted market names is redundant, but if you insist on the notion than T+ albino is simply a wrong way to go about it. And simply calling a snake T+ cause he has decreased levels of melanin is also redundant because if he exhibits melanin, than he can produce some degree of Tyrosinase- that's why the melanin is there.

 

[KJUN]

The term "albino" simply means abnormally reduced pigmentation.

Actually, no. Albino dates back to mammals with only one pigmentation. Saying "albino" means ANY reduction in pigmentation is like saying "word" means "I support that belief" or "bad" means "That is very good." It's a horrible slang term that shouldn't be accepted by otherwise educated people.

When talking to Brian at BHB he said there was nothing different about them at this point and they seem normal in every way.

Yep. People are claiming problems that don't seem to exist in these (or the scaleless TX/BLK rats, either). Sure, water loss is likely increased, but albinos can't take as much sunlight, either. neither thing is necessarily a problem in captivity. Duh. Great point, Rebecca.

 

[Kokopelli]

The scales exist there for a reason. People who feel the urge to engineer their animals to such a degree that they will barely resemble their origin- that's their call.
As long as the full purpose of the scales remains theoretical and cannot be determined with a 100% accuracy, I would rather not deprive an animal of something which might be very useful and possibly crucial for it's quality of life.

Who says that scales have no part in thermal regulation? We use temps that are correct for snakes that do have scales- maybe these temps are wrong for scale-less snakes?
Care to experiment on an animal cause it looks cool?

Again I am not pointing a finger but I can't agree with the notion that there's no ethical dilemma here. I for one am against it- doesn't mean I'm right though.
It's just that people tend to base decisions with long term affects when they know they do not know the full picture. To me, this just looks like a dangerous practice.

 

[KJUN]

The MELANIN exist there for a reason. People who feel the urge to engineer their animals to such a degree that they will barely resemble their origin- that's their call.
As long as the full purpose of the MELANIN remains theoretical and cannot be determined with a 100% accuracy, I would rather not deprive an animal of something which might be very useful and possibly crucial for it's quality of life.

Who says that MELANIN have no part in thermal regulation? We use temps that are correct for snakes that do have ALL OF THEIR PIGMENTATION- maybe these temps are wrong for ALBINO snakes?
Care to experiment on a RED-EYED animal cause it looks cool?

Again I am not pointing a finger but I can't agree with the notion that there's no ethical dilemma here. I for one am against it- doesn't mean I'm right though.
It's just that people tend to base decisions with long term affects when they know they do not know the full picture. To me, this just looks like a dangerous practice.

I made a few changes above. I just substituted a different mutation for scaleless. ...and I do NOT mean this to pick on you. I respect your opinions, and I don't really think they are completely wrong. I'm just making a point, and your post is a good one to do it to since it is obvious you have passion about it - with reasons that have convinced you that you are right. Kudos on it!

To be honest, I find the Europeans aversion to scaleless rather humorous for two reasons. (1) the biggest market for the scaleless ratsnakes has been Europe and (2) the words you said were exactly what was said about albinos and other morphs just a little over a decade ago. Now, they are are big buyers of morphs. In 10 year, I bet i'll be selling a LOT of scaleless across the pond.

The reason I changed it to albino above is because (1) melanin IS used for thermoregulation in the wild and (2) I've been told about the exact same thing specifically concerning albinos in the past.

Anyone that is hypocritical enough to say I don't keep scaleless because they are monstrosities, but I do keep albinos and such....are really just saying which monstrosities THEY WILL KEEP.....and that is funny to me.
KJ

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'll probably regret putting this reply out without reading the rest of the thread, but the thread you mentioned didn't really have any proof of medical problems did it? I think most of the people were making suppositions, and they didn't have actual experince with keeping the animals? Perhaps I need to go and dig it up again and stop being lazy....

If I remember correctly, their were veterinarian articles linked about the negative effects of being scaleless in reptiles (not just specifically Cornsnakes). I remember reading them, and I'm pretty sure they were linked in that thread, but I could be wrong.

Personally, I think it's wrong. That would be like breeding some other sort of skinless animal (eww). I can't see how purposely breeding out a part of their body that protects them from abrasions or whatever as something good. But that's just my opinion.

I think your avatar is ADORABLE and it's been so neat to hear you speak of your pregnancy and now having your son! Congrats!

Thanks.

 

[tricksterpup]

Anyone that is hypocritical enough to say I don't keep scaleless because they are monstrosities, but I do keep albinos and such....are really just saying which monstrosities THEY WILL KEEP.....and that is funny to me.
KJ

I agree, dont get me started on some of the arguments I have about this mutation. I find it very interesting on a science level.
Here is one thought that people do not realize. During evolution there were Mammal like reptiles. Either they had scales or lost them, there is no evidence. But eventually Mammals came about. The lost the scales. Where did this happen? Is this the same genetic quirk that happened that caused the evolution in Mammals. I am not saying its happening with this snake but Scales disappearing had to happen some where down the evolution path.

God, I wish i was more awake for this argument. I hope people understand what I am saying here.

 

[tricksterpup]

Here is the Scaless Corn Thread.

 

[KJUN]

Right. Birds lost their scales. Mammal's do fine. Sure, they'll have to make adjustments, but scaleless corns are NOT SKINLESS! That is like saying a "hairless" mammal is skinless. Amphibians aren't that much different from a scaleless snake, eh?

I'm not saying they would survive in the wild - i'm saying captivity is NOT the wild. If the animals don't "suffer," then this is just another mutation that can be successful IN CAPTIVITY.