Nutritionally complete sausage-type food substitutes - your thoughts?

[Ssthisto]

Right, first and foremost, I'm not talking about the commercially marketed chicken/beef with vitamin supplements sausages. I don't believe those were necessarily nutritionally complete, and certainly not the equivalent of a whole dead prey item.

What I'm wondering is if anyone has ever considered making whole-dead-adult-prey sausages at home - getting the casings, getting a sausage grinder, and getting whole adult rats, whole adult mice and whole adult quail (the former with fur and skin intact; the latter probably mostly plucked with just a few feathers left for fibre) to mince up for the sausage filler.

I'm mostly considering this based on my observations that once a snake gets to eating weaned rodents, they seem to grow longer instead of wider all at once; it just doesn't seem like mice and rats that are feeding exclusively on milk are that "nutritious". Low levels of calcium in the bones, low levels of vitamins and minerals in the gut contents but higher levels of fat - they just don't seem as nutritionally complete as adult mice and rats do.

I can't help but wonder if baby corns would grow more steadily, with more proportional head growth, if they were eating adult prey in pinky-sized portions from day seven.

Anyone ever tried it? I'd be tempted - but my preliminary research in the UK so far seems to indicate the smallest natural sausage casings I could get *easily* are 16-millimetre ones - about double the diameter of what I'd want to use. I wonder if I could get Pepperami/Slim Jim type casings anywhere?

Now, the other question is whether the sausages would need to be cooked to preserve quality - particularly since they'll contain gut contents and all. I can imagine that they'd go off VERY fast if they weren't cooked in some fashion (I had thought maybe steaming them) but I wouldn't want to destroy the nutrients that I'd be trying so hard to preserve by using whole rodents in the first place.

 

[Buzzard]

..... I also have read somewhere that these are ok for a filler but not a diet. That they can make your snake very fat, and some of them do not have the correct nutrients in them. I guess like Mcdonalds hamburgers, we could survive but would be very fat , clogged arteries ect....

 

[LostNFound]

why would you need the casing? if your cooking it..... I am not trying to say make beef jerky. but the press itself would give you the size you are looking for.

 

[Ssthisto]

..... I also have read somewhere that these are ok for a filler but not a diet. That they can make your snake very fat, and some of them do not have the correct nutrients in them. I guess like Mcdonalds hamburgers, we could survive but would be very fat , clogged arteries ect....

I take it you didn't actually *read* my post and see that I wasn't talking about the prepackaged ones that aren't nutritionally complete?

I said specifically "home made out of whole ground adult rodent". In other words: exactly what you feed an adult corn snake, but minced up and sausage-shaped so that a hatchling corn could eat it.

why would you need the casing? if your cooking it..... I am not trying to say make beef jerky. but the press itself would give you the size you are looking for.

That's a thought, although I don't know how well uncased sausages would stand up to being steamed.

I suppose I could trial it by getting something like that press and doing sausages with people-food sausage meat to see how the steaming process works for 'em, then eat the results myself

 

[cajunmomof4]

Who wants to grind mice in their kitchen? It just sounds like way too much work.

 

[Nanci]

I don't see how it would make them have a more proportional head growth...

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I'd be rather leery about it. Baby corns start on pinky mice because of their high fat content. This makes sure that your baby is going to gain enough weight to be able to sustain steady growth over the next couple of years. Even though the pinkys are fed just on milk, they're getting the same nutrition the adults are getting, just via a different medium. There's probably a little extra calcium in the milk to help with the pinkys bone development thrown in there, but a growing snake needs its calcium, too. All those ribs don't grow themselves, you know!
In my personal opinion, I'd stick with going by what nature said. Start on the babies, work your way up to adults. It's seemed to work for the past few millenia. Why change a good thing? :shrugs:

 

[Drewby07]

I've gotta agree with Robbie....snakes have evolved to eat rodents....appropriately sized.

That said....there are members here that swear by cooked chicken....so who knows? :shrugs:

 

[Buzzard]

The question should be Why? It wouldn't be very cost effective. You would be hunting down supplies. Paying for all the extra supplies. You still have to deal with the mice and then the grinding. I think it would be more of a hassel. Then again maybe you want to do it, just to say you've done it.
If so....As far as steaming, That would be the best way to hold nutrients in. You still would lose some, but not as much as baking or dehydrating.

 

[Ssthisto]

I've gotta agree with Robbie....snakes have evolved to eat rodents....appropriately sized.

To my knowledge, wild juvenile corn snakes don't necessarily eat pinky rodents - they're just as likely to be eating juvenile or adult *lizards* - which will have more complete skeletal systems. What I don't have is enough lizards to feed baby corns with.

As for the proportional head growth, I mention it *because* the snakes wouldn't be getting so much fat, therefore they wouldn't be putting on girth from having extra fat - they'd have more balanced meals that have all the nutrients of an adult prey item. I've noted plenty of people saying that switching to rats has made their corns put on extra weight - not least because a corn is going to be eating juvenile, fatty rats instead of lean adult mice. Fast growth/increase in girth is more likely to result in the whole "pinhead" look and I HATE that in my snakes.

Cost-effective... well, I raise my own feeders, so hunting down supplies of whole dead adult rodents isn't a problem. The grinder would be a one-time expense (and hey, I could use it to make sausages for ME too... if I could clean all the bits of whole dead adult rodent out of it :eek1: ) although certainly the casings would be an issue if the sausagemeat wouldn't hold together on its own.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

To my knowledge, wild juvenile corn snakes don't necessarily eat pinky rodents - they're just as likely to be eating juvenile or adult *lizards* - which will have more complete skeletal systems. What I don't have is enough lizards to feed baby corns with.

As for the proportional head growth, I mention it *because* the snakes wouldn't be getting so much fat, therefore they wouldn't be putting on girth from having extra fat - they'd have more balanced meals that have all the nutrients of an adult prey item. I've noted plenty of people saying that switching to rats has made their corns put on extra weight - not least because a corn is going to be eating juvenile, fatty rats instead of lean adult mice. Fast growth/increase in girth is more likely to result in the whole "pinhead" look and I HATE that in my snakes.

Cost-effective... well, I raise my own feeders, so hunting down supplies of whole dead adult rodents isn't a problem. The grinder would be a one-time expense (and hey, I could use it to make sausages for ME too... if I could clean all the bits of whole dead adult rodent out of it :eek1: ) although certainly the casings would be an issue if the sausagemeat wouldn't hold together on its own.

The only time fast growth effects head size for the "pinhead" look is when a snake is powerfed. Don't powerfeed, and you'll avoid that problem.

 

[cajunmomof4]

. The grinder would be a one-time expense (and hey, I could use it to make sausages for ME too... if I could clean all the bits of whole dead adult rodent out of it :eek1: ) although certainly the casings would be an issue if the sausagemeat wouldn't hold together on its own.

uke01:uke01:

Please don't

 

[danielle]

If your not grossed out by the idea of grinding mice go for it and see. If you don't like the process you could sterilize the machine really really well and make your own sausages their yummy homemade I do it myself. You can order the casings in bulk just google them- since I don't do this every week I just go to my italian deli there like less than 25 cents a caing this way.

 

[Maize411]

Well you also have to take into consideration that snakes in the wild both adult and juveniles are not given their weekly mouse like in captivity..so some can go weeks before finding a descent meal..plus corns have been known to eat lizards, mice, eggs, and birds..and the ones in the wild have survived for generations on the food provided for them..So why try to feed a juvenile ground up adult mice? Nature never made that possible and yet the species has survived..I think just sticking to feeding pinks and uping the size accordingly is the best result for a healthy snake..but hey if u have this idea and really want to try it then all power to ya..

 

[Ssthisto]

The only time fast growth effects head size for the "pinhead" look is when a snake is powerfed. Don't powerfeed, and you'll avoid that problem.

Define power feeding, please - in such a way as to make it an accurate definition for ALL cornsnakes.

I have one corn snake - my first, who I got as a six-month-old - who was fed the conventional-wisdom once a week on a prey item one to one and a half times his greatest diameter.

He's pinheaded.

Obviously that feeding regime was too much food for him. He's now fed once every two to three weeks on one small adult mouse. He gains weight and grows in length on that - but slowly.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

My definition of powerfeeding is every 3 days as a baby, or if they're doing once a week, multiple items before they're ready to try and bump up their weight to be able to eat bigger items. For adults, I like to think of it every 4 days, or many prey items at a time. But there's really no true definition.
It really is something that each person has to pay attention to, because there's no set definition to powerfeeding. Every snake is different just like every person is different. They all have different metabolisms. What I eat and how I eat might leave one person skinner than a rail, but it might make another person blow up like a balloon. When working with any animal, you have to take into consideration that there's going to be differences. If you noticed he was gaining girth instead of length, you should have recognized that he was getting a bit too big, and cut back the feedings a little bit earlier.
Could it also have been something in his genetics that made him pinheaded? Possibly. 2 of my baby creamsicles right now are from a pinheaded father. They're proportional, with normal sized heads. It's just a matter of paying attention to what you're doing, and paying attention to what your snake can handle.
The Munson Plan and the conventional once a week plan are good for a lot of snakes. But they might not be the best for others, and need to be tweaked accordingly.

Define power feeding, please - in such a way as to make it an accurate definition for ALL cornsnakes.

I have one corn snake - my first, who I got as a six-month-old - who was fed the conventional-wisdom once a week on a prey item one to one and a half times his greatest diameter.

He's pinheaded.

Obviously that feeding regime was too much food for him. He's now fed once every two to three weeks on one small adult mouse. He gains weight and grows in length on that - but slowly.

 

[Drewby07]

Well...all I can say is try it and see...though I think cooking would be detrimental to the nutritional content of whatever you are feeding...but that's just my opinion.

 

[Feanturi]

There could be some real benefits both time- and health-wise if you could preserve the nutritional content. Make it easier on feeding day for sure. And the cooking would guarantee the lack of parasites and disease transmission if appropriately handled. Pressure cooking ought to help preserve shape and do the least damage to the quality of the food, I'd think.

That said, I'm thinkin' Nature Bats Last, and it's best to keep your chips on Her Numbers, know what I mean? A snake has a very different digestive system than ours, and though they may live on it I can't help but buy that there is a deep connection to different tendencies for a reason. They may do ok on anoles, quail chicks, etc., but the preferred prey is rodentia in nature and I expect they tend that way for a reason. Thrive vs get by. I'd think there is plenty of other prey available to any able bodied corn, and they probably do take the opportunities that present themselves, but the main diet is rats and mice. I'm stayin' away from the rats because no matter how much time they get out and about with us, they will never get the exercise of a wild snake so the lean meal plan is working. A Modified Munson seems to work fine for our snakes. And cutting seems to work well too, we fed that way last year and everything seemed to work well. The kids are in good shape and at very healthy weights for their size/age, though the oldest really only eats every 3-4 weeks, and he's the most active-out-and-about-snake-around-town, well, around town. I'm sure the rest would be happy for anything; they'll eat anything that's for sure....

 

[Feanturi]

Sorry if I came off as all arrogant and whatnot there by forgetting to mention that I concur with the above posters' opinions, and to give respect to the Esteemed Panel and Members of Cornsnakes.com, without whom this whole discussion would never take place. And to "Dean"; an electronic writing forum, for his very own, from: Uncle Bilbo. For Dean gave great advice and it was hoped that he would continue to do so for a very long time indeed.

 

[Austin M]

First off let me say that, I think it is a wonderful idea! I say go for it, and more importantly report back to us on your results!

In my opinion it's the same concept as using dog food instead of table scraps and prey items. This nature argument doesn't hold water with me! By nature my dog would be catching live rabbits, squirrels, deer ect. and eating them raw. So by nature I guess I should feed my dog live rabbits? If you want "natural" you should feed live prey to your snakes too, right?

In Ft. Myers. during hatchling season there are hundreds and thousands of baby brown anoles everywhere. You can't tell me those anoles aren't the bulk of some corn hatchlings diet! So by "nature" some hatchlings will feed only on lizards! I guess nature depends on location. So, I would think "natural" would be hard to be all encompassing when corns have such a huge natural range, right?

On a side note....I haven't heard a "power feeding" argument in so long that I think I'm feeling nostalgia! LOL Oh, how I miss power feeding arguments/ assaults. QUOTE]The Munson Plan and the conventional once a week plan are good for a lot of snakes.[/QUOTE] This is the first time I have seen "The Munson Plan" as acceptable practice from an "AntiPowerfeeder"! LOL I may have been drunk, but I recall Dean as being an EVIL powerfeeder who only cared about breeding early and had sentenced his snakes to an early death because of "The Munson Plan". From what I recall Dean was a "noob" without clout, so his plan was too. But because he was very vocal on this sight some people accepted and tried his plan to their and their snakes success.

On another side note I think a baby, whatever species, has way higher caloric needs per body weight than an adult. I did some math yesterday and my one year old daughter ate 1000 calories yesterday. That's half the recommended allowance for an adult male! Does anyone think I'm power feeding my baby daughter? I have a 12yr old and a 6yr old that ate like that too. Some times I think I'm going to have to force feed the older two now because they are skinny and don't eat. Babies need more calories than adults to compensate for there growth, in most species anyways.

For the record I'm a powerfeeder by RobbiesCornField's standards because I have fed baby corns every three days. To the baby corns advantage, in my opinion!

To sum it up, people LOVE status quo and usually fight those who want to disrupt it! I say break the status quo and find out if your sausage is BETTER than their status quo! LOL