"Original" Granites

[starsevol]

I personally have no trouble calling anery bloods "raider" corns. But again, I will go with the masses on this.

I wish someone would come up with trade names for hypo-bloods and ghost-bloods though!

 

[nlove_3000]

I saw this ad also, and he specifically mentions the debate in it (as he saw it coming when he posted the ad.) I cannot afford them for the life of me right now, but they are absolutely gorgeous!!! I don't care what they're called. I agree with both sides of the debate. He has the right to use the original given name. But again, the name used by the masses has pushed it out of the way - so he may want to reconsider...possibly include a note (i.e., previously known as the original granite). I have a friend whose business (Geeks on Call) was created long before it's rival (Geek Squad). Because of confusion between the two both argued that the other was inadvertantly stealing business. In the end the original business lost their ground bc changing the name of the second business would damage that business also, and the similarities in names were unavoidable (as if Petco and Petsmart sued each other for the use of the word "pet"). So the original business decided on their own to change the name (1800-905Geek) to seperate themselves, do loads of advertising, and are now doing very well on the east coast.

From this example it seems like YES, he's right and has the right to use the name. NO, it's not in his best interest to continue to do so. Suck it up, change the name, and advertise the "new" corn.

 

[Susan]

It's a shame that the naming of new morphs can be such a mess at times. At the time, I had no idea of the prior use of the name "granite". I only knew that I hated the "Raider" name (although I liked the team) for anery bloods. Unfortunately, I think common usage is going to take precedence over the technically "right thing to do". But then again, who knows what the names will be in 10-20 years. There's a debate over another new morph...anery C, Z morph, cinder and ashy. I personally don't care for any of these, but will recognize the use of all 4 names until one finally wins out. There are several other names I don't care for, immediately recognize or use regularly, such as snopal uke01:, sulfur, pearl, topaz, and avalanche. I'm sure there are others I can't even think of right now. Tell me it's a lava caramel and I'm good! I feel really sorry for all the newbies right about now, trying to make heads or tails out of all the varieties and combos!

 

[Roy Munson]

Tell me it's a lava caramel and I'm good! I feel really sorry for all the newbies right about now, trying to make heads or tails out of all the varieties and combos!

I feel the same way. Names like "ghost" and "snow" are so well established that they're not going to go away, but I generally don't like trade names for combos at all. I don't just feel bad for newbies-- I feel bad for myself! Someone asked me about avalanches the other day and I drew a blank. I knew it was amel-bloodred-something, but I couldn't remember the exact combo.

 

[darkmorning1]

:-offtopic If you do get any gold crap, screw breeding them, sell their poop!:grin01:

:roflmao: you can say that again

 

[Drizzt80]

Don,
I didn't have the time to re-read these threads as I'm supposed to be working, but I believe the posts you are referring to are buried somewhere in these threads:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14876

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16974&highlight=naming+anery+blood

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16976&highlight=naming+anery+blood

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19848&highlight=naming+anery+blood

I definitely recall the information/words you spoke of. :shrugs:
D80

 

[starsevol]

I feel the same way. Names like "ghost" and "snow" are so well established that they're not going to go away, but I generally don't like trade names for combos at all. I don't just feel bad for newbies-- I feel bad for myself! Someone asked me about avalanches the other day and I drew a blank. I knew it was amel-bloodred-something, but I couldn't remember the exact combo.

Heh heh heh that was me!

 

[jaxom1957]

I think that's proven multiple times that isn't true. A trade name will only stick if it's used by the masses (as it has for Granites).

However, there is a big difference between the public choosing to use a name other than what the original breeder suggests and co-opting the name of an already existing morph. Granite was already being used; it should never have been co-opted for anery bloods. Whether the "public" wanted to call the original snakes granites is irrelevant - once the name was being used, another name should have been used for the later combination.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I think Chuck & Joe Pierce put it very well in this thread. Sums up how I feel about it...No need for rewriting.

The “Granite” Corns that are in Kathy’s book are not really available. I believe that Brian Barczyk has most of them and I talked to him at a show and the project has not taken off yet, but they have been around for quite some time. I am not 100% on this, but I haven’t seen any for sale and I believe that is what Brain told me last year.

It seems as if the naming of this morph as “Granite” Corns, was done long ago before they were really available and they haven‘t become available. I realize it is in print now, but how can it be accepted if it really hasn’t been used. I haven’t heard of any being produced or sold, but Anery Bloods are produced in significant numbers each year.

I personally, like the name game and have named some new morphs before they were available for sale, but they will be soon. The Granite Corns in Kathy’s book, seem to have stalled and the trade name for them doesn‘t seem to have much use.

Well, if you're going to say that if it's published then you have to use it, then you need to refer to all motley jungle corns as "hurricanes" because that was published in the first edition of the CSM. Also, the term "Raider" was mentioned in my book this year so you also need to be policing peoples' speech and telling them they have to call them raiders...

This isn't how it works. How it works is that people start using a name, and if it picks up, it becomes "part of the language" and gains its own definition. This is not dependent on publications. If Webster published a new English dictionary where they claimed that yes means no and no means yes, it wouldn't change the English language. A publication can give a name a jump start by giving it a lot of exposure, but it does not "officialize" the language.

I am always amused by people saying "I vote not to use that name" and then acting all appalled that the name got used anyway. Or they act all appalled that they weren't explicitly invited into a public thread discussing ideas for a name. The reason the name game gets played out on some of these threads is that it's a way to see what kind of general acceptance it will have, not to ask permission or unanimous consent.

Books do not create language, neither do polls on forums. The market does. This scenario will play out in the market, and the best application of the name (if any is even worthwhile) will win. It's not a democracy where people can vote beforehand in some poll on a thread. You can go ahead and try that but you will be wasting your time. Nobody cares what you think or what I think. The market will vote with their wallets and their mouths and their price lists.

 

[Velvet]

I agree with both sides of the argument...I have always called Anery bloods "Granites" as that was what I have always heard them being called and personally, I think they are alot more granite-looking (as in the rock) than the Original granites.

But the original bloods were named first so yeah...lol I would say they have first option though I doubt that people will stop calling anery bloods "granites".

Why "Raider" corns? Please explain for the benefit of someone who lives outside the States. lol On this note, I think any name should be as universal as possible so the rest of the world to understand. I understand the whole "Okeetee" and "Miami" thing as that's where they are from.

We call Anery A's "Silver" corns here in sunny South Africa. So many "Silver Bloods" could work? Anyway, I think they deserve a nice name of their own! lol

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Raider is in reference to a Football Team.
http://www.raiders.com/IntroPage1.aspx

Poor choice in my opinion because only people in the US would understand its reference (if they follow football anyway).

 

[Velvet]

Raider is in reference to a Football Team.
http://www.raiders.com/IntroPage1.aspx

Poor choice in my opinion because only people in the US would understand its reference (if they follow football anyway).

Thanks! :grin01:

I must agree though! lol I don't even know how American football works. lol We mainly play rugby and cricket and football (soccer) here. :grin01:

 

[StrangeCargo]

I have to agree with Don Soderberg about the naming issue... I still remember when Anery Bloods were called Raider Corns or Anery bloods also. There has been such an influx of new people into the scene that stuff like this has been forgotten... I've had many locality matched Rosy Rat bloodlines...got most from Gus Rentfro when he still had colubrids.

I think this thread is interesting because I just picked up a group of PURE Rosy Ratsnakes from a breeder in Florida... the female is STRIPED (looks like these striped "granite" rosy rats being sold on kingsnake)... she is cb from WC parents. I have collection names & locality info on the bloodline....

These PURE striped "Granite" rosy rats are still around... just few and far between. I didn't pay an outrageous price for my group so when babies are produced they will be much more reasonably priced... I think something in the range of $150 to $200 is much more reasonable for CB PURE striped "granite"like Rosy Rats...

Just my 2 cents... I'll post pictures when they arrive late next week.

Graham

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Graham, could you post the picture of your female?
I'd really like to see more examples of these (especially adult).

 

[SODERBERGD]

Wrong . . .

I think Chuck & Joe Pierce put it very well in this thread. Sums up how I feel about it...No need for rewriting.

I had already purchased granite corns before anery bloods were misnamed. So did others, including the guy that is producing them now and Stephen Fowler. Hence, they were in commerce before the name was reassigned to the anery bloods.

Don Soderberg
South Mountain Reptiles
www.cornsnake.NET

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Yes, I understand what you're saying, but what you're referring to is a a limited commerce. I have never seen these for sale, in the past 5 years, up until now. They weren't available to the "general public." I have however seen plenty of Anery Diffused.

That's my point...Why should a mutation that isn't readily available (to the general public) lay claim on a name? It isn't up to the breeder, it's up to what the general public will accept and use as a trade name. Granite is a widely accepted trade name for Anery Diffused.

 

[Drizzt80]

Why should a mutation that isn't readily available (to the general public) lay claim on a name? It isn't up to the breeder, it's up to what the general public will accept and use as a trade name.

While I agree that public use of the name is important to the "official" name of a morph, I also very very strongly believe that the originator of the morph has a more important right for their naming effort to be recognized . . . let's just say it's a respect thing for me.

While Granite may be more publicly used for Anery Bloods, there should (have) been a respect for the Keys morph called Granite that was made apparent when the discussions began previously. Along the same angle, the breeder should have an amount of respect for the public and be open to appropriate suggestions.

Either way, this one could be a hairy discussion. :eek1:
D80

PS. I really went through those links last night and just couldn't find those comments Don. My ninja-search skills were lacking. I do know it's out there somewhere!

 

[Roy Munson]

While I agree that public use of the name is important to the "official" name of a morph, I also very very strongly believe that the originator of the morph has a more important right for their naming effort to be recognized . . . let's just say it's a respect thing for me.

While Granite may be more publicly used for Anery Bloods, there should (have) been a respect for the Keys morph called Granite that was made apparent when the discussions began previously. Along the same angle, the breeder should have an amount of respect for the public and be open to appropriate suggestions.

I dunno. I have mixed-feelings about it. Fortunately, my opinions on the subject don't matter much. I like the idea that the originator gets naming rights, but I'm not sure that we can expect acceptance of these names. And does the originator have an obligation to name the snakes something non-silly, or descriptive of the morph?

I just acquired a snake that may have a new mutant pattern-gene. If I prove that it is something new, and I decide that I want to call the homozygous hatchlings "Buccaneer" corns (Tampa Bay's colors are red, white, and black), should I expect everyone to fall in line? What if I decide to call them "GooGoo" corns?

What if I could prove that I was the originator of hypo-snows, that I produced them before lav was even discovered, and that I had once publicly declared that they were to be called "opals"? Would everybody be expected to desist in using the term for amel-lavs?

:shrugs:

 

[El Jefe]

I just acquired a snake that may have a new mutant pattern-gene. If I prove that it is something new, and I decide that I want to call the homozygous hatchlings "Buccaneer" corns (Tampa Bay's colors are red, white, and black), should I expect everyone to fall in line?

Yeah...but if you followed the Buccaneer colors of present day you would be fine. BUT...back when I used to go to the games their colors were different.....

:sidestep:


But....Bucs corn may work....it did come from Ultimate Cornsnakes who were in FL......Maybe you ought to call it something to pay tribute to them? :grin01:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6323

 

[tom e]

I dunno. I have mixed-feelings about it. Fortunately, my opinions on the subject don't matter much. I like the idea that the originator gets naming rights, but I'm not sure that we can expect acceptance of these names. And does the originator have an obligation to name the snakes something non-silly, or descriptive of the morph?

I just acquired a snake that may have a new mutant pattern-gene. If I prove that it is something new, and I decide that I want to call the homozygous hatchlings "Buccaneer" corns (Tampa Bay's colors are red, white, and black), should I expect everyone to fall in line? What if I decide to call them "GooGoo" corns?

What if I could prove that I was the originator of hypo-snows, that I produced them before lav was even discovered, and that I had once publicly declared that they were to be called "opals"? Would everybody be expected to desist in using the term for amel-lavs?

:shrugs:

Dean, I don't think anyone is suggesting that if you name them Buccaneer corns that we should all agree with you. I think the point here is more like if you named them Buccaneer corns and then I came out with another project and co-opted the name cause I thought mine looked more like the Buccaneers uniform... I don't know how you could not have hard feelings on that one, and it was clear on this guys ad that he does. He had said something to the extent of "If you have something to say about the name, just keep it on the boards where I will never see it."
Can you imagine how he feels at every show when a noob like me can walk up to him and say, "Sorry dude, but those aren't granite corns.."

I don't know what's right here, or if it can change.. but we should be very careful of doing that in the future.