"Original" Granites

[Lore]

The originators of morphs need not notify anyone. I'm referring to an old name being changed. If we always called them anery bloods, I think we should notify everyone that has them on their sites or that we notice selling them at the expos and advise them that changes have been proposed. If you are one of the first to introduce a morph, you need not speak to anyone regarding your decision to name it. Unless, of course, you want to find out if anyone has them in commerce and/or has already named them.

Sorry if I was confusing on that matter. I'm referring to changing names. Not making new ones.

Don

I for one have found this discussion quite interesting and informative and have made necessary changes to my website. :cheers:

 

[Susan]

And if my "Matrix" corn is truly exhibiting a new pattern gene, then after I prove it I want the gene to be called "Mosaic".

I may have to fight you on this one, Dean, as I've had that name ear-marked on my website for a few years now for a different gene combo. :grin01:

http://www.williswildlifeenterprises-cornsnakes.com/MosaicProject.html

 

[Susan]

And I think this fits this whole situation quite nicely:

JULIET:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

I hope that this hasn't been obvious from my posts. I never stole a GD thing. I'm the guy who gets slipped the counterfeit $20 and gets yelled at for trying to use it at the gas station when I had no idea. I don't plan on using the name for anery-bloods anymore. And considering the extremely limited availability and insane pricing of these animals despite their long history, I probably won't be using the name "granite" much at all anyway.

Who stole the name? I'm not saying that it wasn't stolen, but who stole it? Was there any resistance to this theivery? I haven't seen the evidence of it.

Of course it's wrong! Who doesn't understand it?

I never said that it was the originator's fault. I've known about it since September of 2007. If others have known since '99, including the originator, then where can I find examples of those in the know defending the name against the theives who stole it? I guess there was some thread here. Maybe it was before my time, or maybe I missed it. I've posted granite photo threads numerous times and NO ONE has ever challenged my use of the name-- not you, not Don, not Menhir (who actually posted in at least one of my granite threads).

I must have missed Chuck's coronation as King of Corns. Either that, or he doesn't really have the authority to proclaim what is official in this hobby. Of course Kathy, Don, Rich, AND Chuck's opinions matter. Who is questioning their value to the hobby or writing off their opinions? But none of them has the authority to dictate this policy. If I were Emperor of the Universe, I would appoint these four and Connie as Grand Commissioners of All Things Corn. But I'm not. I'm going to personally heed their opinions, but I can't expect the hobbyists who have heard of them, and the vast numbers who have not, to follow suit.

They sure are. And I could go on all day about the requirements for a perfect society, and I might make perfect sense. It doesn't change the real world one bit.

There are bigger problems in the world than corn snake naming conventions, so this thing is kind of a yawn for me. Maybe I just lack your moral compass. Have the originator or his customers been hurt? These snakes are selling for $1800 a pair! The only people who will buy them are people who know the difference between them and anery-bloods anyway. Get rid of every trade name tomorrow, and just give me the genotypes, I don't care. I think granite is a bad descriptor for either claimant to the name anyway.

I never accused YOU of stealing now did I? NO....
It wasn't a personal attack on poor little you.


who stole the name?
the ones who pushed the name through after knowing it was in use.
Connie, Chuck etc. Anyone involved that knew..simple as that.
Read the posts you linked. The name use was pointed out. It doesn't matter that the few people here didn't think the name was in wide enough use. IT WAS IN USE.

As far as I'm concerned anyone who gives excuses as to why it IS OK and isn't really stealing or isn't really wrong, or it's just a name etc etc etc, including you, are the people who "don't understand it"

You made it clear that you felt the originators of the name should have come here and defended their right to the name. HOW MANY TIMES do we have to point out that only the few people in one little section of THIS forum were the ones advocating the name change. There weren't many, if any, outside of the few people that read this little section in this ONE forum who knew anything about it. There was no attempt to include the "corn snake community" it actualluy looked as if they knew it was wrong and didn't want the opinions of the "corn snake community"
It has also been pointed out that at the time of this theft, the originator was out of the country.
So by stating they should have defended their right to the name you insinuate it was their fault by not doing so and therefore OK to steal the name.
After the name was stolen and changed the originators knew what has been proven here. It would be futile. This forum seems to think it IS the do-all and end-all of the corn snake world. If you're not part of the main little "group" here, you are insignificant.

I'm not sure what you mean about that Chuck's coronation crap.
I brought up his name because he was one of the ones that was responsible for the name "change". I was making the point that he went against his own expressed opinions on the issue when it was what He wanted. Simply typical.

then you make these inane statements about a perfect society and the real world...
...WHAT?
because society, as a whole, tends to ignore morals and ethics and seems to be losing touch with what is right and wrong we just shouldn't worry about it? yeah good point.
Guess what.. I live in the REAL WORLD and I can still easily make the right choice. I do not have to conform. I can still make a choice...hey guess what..so can everyone else.
I'm not an angel and I've sure as hell done a lot of things I'm not proud of but I knew what was right or wrong when I did it. It wasn't ever a grey area.
That is why I run my little "corn snake business" with ethics. I never represent my animals as anything other then what they are. If I sell an animal and a person has a problem, I do what I can to fix that problem. I sell at reasonable prices. There are many many breeders large and small who do the same. It really isn't a foreign concept. It is a choice, a choice anyone can make, REAL WORLD or not...Funny thing is you seem to think that this community and breeders trying to make a living in the corn snake world are insignificant enough to be discluded from THE REAL WORLD. I'm sure Don, Kathy, Rich and all the others trying to make a living in the corn snake business will be glad to know they aren't really living in THE REAL WORLD. Thanks for enlightening us on that one.

And even more crap about bigger issues in the world..blah blah blah.
This is a CORN SNAKE FORUM. A place where issues about CORN SNAKES are discussed. The stealing of a name of a morph of CORN SNAKE is relevent on this and any CORN SNAKE FORUM. Other problems in the world do not have a DAMN thing to do with the issue at hand.
the price of these snakes and/or YOUR dislike of the name are also irrelevant.

The taking of the name when known to be in use and the problem of two separate genetic lines with the same name ARE the issue.

 

[Roy Munson]

I may have to fight you on this one, Dean, as I've had that name ear-marked on my website for a few years now for a different gene combo. :grin01:

http://www.williswildlifeenterprises-cornsnakes.com/MosaicProject.html

Darn! Actually, I was pretty sure when I "claimed" that name that I had seen it before. Thanks for reminding me of where I had seen it.

We should come up with a huge list of cool names and arbitrarily assign them to morphs that do not yet exist. Then we can sell the names like they do internet domain names. :grin01:

Great R&J quotation. :cheers:

 

[Roy Munson]

I never accused YOU of stealing now did I? NO....
It wasn't a personal attack on poor little you.

Poor little me? That's a little harsh, isn't it, Jimmy? You wrote a very strongly worded post, and I responded with strong words myself. You opened your post with this: "because, Dean, by reading these posts it is obvious no one here really gives a damn or thinks there is anything wrong with stealing the name." Ok, you didn't accuse poor little me of stealing-- you only claimed that NO ONE who had posted here really cares about this name-stealing business. That would have included me, and I thought I'd made it clear enough that I didn't approve of the name-stealing. I doubt that you really even meant that opening statement considering that several members very strongly voiced opposition to the name-stealing (e.g., Don, Menhir).

who stole the name?
the ones who pushed the name through after knowing it was in use.
Connie, Chuck etc. Anyone involved that knew..simple as that.
Read the posts you linked. The name use was pointed out. It doesn't matter that the few people here didn't think the name was in wide enough use. IT WAS IN USE.

For the record, I had not assembled the links I provided before making either of the posts you've replied to. I didn't claim that evidence for resistance to this name-stealing, or the the stealing itself, DIDN'T exist, just that I hadn't seen it. After doing my research, I still only saw the tiniest amount of resistance from a few posters in low-post-count threads. I had to find these few "needles" in a gigantic "haystack" of threads where granite was used to describe anery-bloods and there was ZERO resistance. I still find it difficult to believe that those low-participation threads had enough influence on the corn community at large (including non-forum enthusiasts) to have caused the entire community to adopt granite as the name for anery-bloods. It would be interesting to trace this adoption, but I doubt that we'll ever know how it really happened.

As far as I'm concerned anyone who gives excuses as to why it IS OK and isn't really stealing or isn't really wrong, or it's just a name etc etc etc, including you, are the people who "don't understand it"

And now you're accusing me of not understanding the situation. I've said from the beginning that I think it's wrong, so where do you get off saying that I don't get it? Read what I've written before the post that set you off, and reassess whether or not I "get it". I still don't think that this "thievery" was quite as nefarious a thing as you make it out to be. It seems that the paradigm in which these people operated was one in which the "if the name sticks" rule was being employed. You seem to be operating under a stricter system, and I don't have a problem with that, but there are no "laws" concerning corn snake naming conventions, and we don't even seem to have come near to any concensus on them either. So I hesitate to make demons out of people who either have a different view of the matter from mine, or who may have acted with a bit of ignorant or inconsiderate arrogance.

You made it clear that you felt the originators of the name should have come here and defended their right to the name. HOW MANY TIMES do we have to point out that only the few people in one little section of THIS forum were the ones advocating the name change. There weren't many, if any, outside of the few people that read this little section in this ONE forum who knew anything about it. There was no attempt to include the "corn snake community" it actualluy looked as if they knew it was wrong and didn't want the opinions of the "corn snake community"
It has also been pointed out that at the time of this theft, the originator was out of the country.
So by stating they should have defended their right to the name you insinuate it was their fault by not doing so and therefore OK to steal the name.

I have to say that I'm a little dismayed at how you draw conclusions that aren't mine from my words and then attack me for them. I have not "made it clear" that the originators should have defended the name HERE. My investigation wasn't limited to searching cs.com-- I couldn't find ANY other evidence for defending the original intent of the name ANYWHERE else, except in the ad in the OP. Then you write: "HOW MANY TIMES do we have to point out that only the few people in one little section of THIS forum were the ones advocating the name change." This point has always been clear; you don't have to be demeaning by suggesting that repetition has failed to get the point through my thick skull. A name is discussed several times HERE as a suggested tradename for anery-blood. A handful (or fewer) replies are made HERE that indicate that the name is already in use to describe an obscure population of corns. In the next couple of years, the name is adopted by hundreds or thousands of corn enthusiasts to describe anery-bloods. The adoption of the name goes far beyond general usage in this forum. The originators and their supporters don't seem to have done much to discourage this ANYWHERE, except in a few of their advertisements (I'm assuming that it was addressed in more ads than just the one in the OP). I just feel that the originators and their supporters should have been more vigilant over the last few years if it meant so much to them. This would have been much easier to nip in the bud a few years ago, and you can argue that there were a few people HERE who attempted to do this in a handful of posts, but why were these people silent while thousands of posts have been made since then that assign the name to anery-bloods? And that's just HERE. I've seen granite anery-bloods listed that way in many, many places. Where has the resistance been? The mess is unfortunate, but the originators and their supporters are not blameless for the mess.

After the name was stolen and changed the originators knew what has been proven here. It would be futile. This forum seems to think it IS the do-all and end-all of the corn snake world. If you're not part of the main little "group" here, you are insignificant.

Is this true, or is it conjecture on your part? Did the originators really have THIS site in mind when they gave up, or are you guessing? I'd argue that there may be a group that mainly participates elsewhere who feel that they are the "do-all and end-all of the corn snake world", but I don't think the members here feel that way. Do you really think they do, Jimmy? Do you think I feel that way? If so, what gives you that impression?

I'm not sure what you mean about that Chuck's coronation crap.
I brought up his name because he was one of the ones that was responsible for the name "change". I was making the point that he went against his own expressed opinions on the issue when it was what He wanted. Simply typical.

I have to say that I didn't read your words as you intended them, but now I see what you were saying. I agree with your point 100%. If you're going to try to assume the authority to make the rules, the least you should do is follow them yourself.

then you make these inane statements about a perfect society and the real world...
...WHAT?
because society, as a whole, tends to ignore morals and ethics and seems to be losing touch with what is right and wrong we just shouldn't worry about it? yeah good point.
Guess what.. I live in the REAL WORLD and I can still easily make the right choice. I do not have to conform. I can still make a choice...hey guess what..so can everyone else.

"Inane statements", eh Jimmy? Is every opinion that you don't agree with or that hasn't been clarified "inane"? Oh well, my "poor little" feelings aren't hurt, but I AM surprised. You had condescendingly advised me: "Go back and read what Don and Menhir have written and think about it. They are making perfect sense." As if I hadn't already thought about it. You can boil down my opinion to this: talk is cheap. Menhir has replied in granite/anery-blood threads without mentioning the stealing issue, and even Don eventually made a reply referring to anery-bloods as granites without qualification. Don says it was a "when in Rome" thing. I don't have a problem with that, but if Don, who is obviously passionate about this issue, rolled over already, what is my obligation to clean up this mess? Yes, everyone else can make a choice as to what is right Jimmy, and guess what? That includes me. I've already said that I'm not going to use the name for anery-bloods anymore (I like anery-blood better anyway), and that's good enough for me. If you want to spend the time opining on the wrongness of using the term for anery-bloods in every post where it's used that way, HERE and everywhere else, then I look forward to seeing your efforts and those of the people who are so passionate about this. It'll be a daunting task, but I sincerely wish you all luck and success.

I'm not an angel and I've sure as hell done a lot of things I'm not proud of but I've knew what was right or wrong when I did it. It wasn't ever a grey area.
That is why I run my little "corn snake business" with ethics. I never represent my animals as anything other then what they are. If I sell an animal and a person has a problem, I do what I can to fix that problem. I sell at reasonable prices. There are many many breeders large and small who do the same. It really isn't a foreign concept. It is a choice, a choice anyone can make, REAL WORLD or not...Funny thing is you seem to think that this community and breeders trying to make a living in the corn snake world are insignificant enough to be discluded from THE REAL WORLD. I'm sure Don, Kathy, Rich and all the others trying to make a living in the corn snake business will be glad to know they aren't really living in THE REAL WORLD. Thanks for enlightening us on that one.

Now you are entering offensive and libelous territory, Jimmy. I'll put up my morals, ethics, and business practices against yours any day, man. If you can't keep your impressions based in reality, then maybe you should step away from the keyboard. Read this quote from me again, and tell me how it fits with the deluded B.S. you spew in my last quote from you:

Of course Kathy, Don, Rich, AND Chuck's opinions matter. Who is questioning their value to the hobby or writing off their opinions? But none of them has the authority to dictate this policy. If I were Emperor of the Universe, I would appoint these four and Connie as Grand Commissioners of All Things Corn. But I'm not.

Do you get it yet, or is your baseless defamation game too much fun to stop?

And even more crap about bigger issues in the world..blah blah blah.
This is a CORN SNAKE FORUM. A place where issues about CORN SNAKES are discussed. The stealing of a name of a morph of CORN SNAKE is relevent on this and any CORN SNAKE FORUM. Other problems in the world do not have a DAMN thing to do with the issue at hand.
the price of these snakes and/or YOUR dislike of the name are also irrelevant.

Other problems in the world and in my life DO affect how I rank the importance of this subject in MY life, Jimmy. That was my only point. I didn't say that you had to feel that way. That's why I look forward to seeing the hard work you'll be putting in to setting this situation right.

The taking of the name when known to be in use and the problem of two separate genetic lines with the same name ARE the issue.

I couldn't agree with you more. My own personal usage will be in line with your opinions, and again, I wish you luck and success in your efforts to resolve this issue.

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

your words

"And here's another point. I think that if it's so darned important to the person who first applies a name that the name be used correctly, that person needs to do some of the work to establish the name for the morph they have in mind. If someone posts a "Granite Wanted" thread in the classified section, why should I spend my time clarifying the situation while the originator of the morph and a couple of his original customers either refuse to discuss it or ignore that there's a discussion altogether?"


pretty obvious to me.
Especially when you add things like "if it's so damned important..."
You are saying they should have promoted their use of the name and that they either refused to discuss the use of the name or ignored it.
That is why I just don't think you truly do "get it"
It doesn't matter how poorly they promoted the name or how poorly they defended their claim to the name when it was suggested for use.
The ones wanting to use the name for anery bloods knew it was used. It apparently had enough distribution out there for people to bring it to the attention of said group.
Its not about the laws and what may or may not hold up in a court of law its about right or wrong and the ramifications of two geneticaly different snakes having the same name.


Saying people don't care about the theft does not mean they are theives. It means they don't care.
you were getting indignant as if you were accused of stealing and then you went on to speak about how you are always the one that bad things happen to.
so yeah "poor little you".


it may be hard to believe but those low-participation threads are exactly what did change the name.
Then people just began to follow suit.
It happened. There can't be any denying that.


that group you and I speak of, the do-all, end-all group were here when the change took place. Once again that is why the circle comes back to this site.


yes I used the word inane.. I felt the comments about a "perfect society" and the real world to be inane.
When I disagree with a persons comments I have the right to respond to them as I see fit.
You have exercised your right to do the same.

You say there are bigger things in the world and this is all a "yawn" to you.
This obviously means you really don't give a damn. If it is all a "yawn" then there can be no true concern.


YOU said it doesn't change THE REAL WORLD.
By stating that it does not change the REAL WORLD it creates a separation between THIS world and the REAL WORLD.
You said it not me. By separating this world from the REAL WORLD you indicate this world is less significant.
Sure, you and I could go on without our snakes and they are not our livelyhood, but they are still part of our world and who we are, and they are definitely the REAL WORLD for quite a few people out there.

we could go on forever... but we won't
post your response and I think our opinions and feelings on this discussion will be just about played out.
No sense boring everyone else with it.

 

[StrangeCargo]

Ok, sorry for the delay, Here are pictures of the Rosy Rat pair that just got shipped in this past Tuesday. This bloodline was collected on the same Florida key as the "Granite" Rosy Rats.... From looking at the pics of kingsnake.com of the juvie "Granite" Rosy Rats, I believe my female is what is being called (or argued...whichever side you take) "Granite" Rosy Ratsnakes. She exhibits a plain belly... noticeable lateral striping on the upper ~1/2 to ~1/3 body and a faded pattern/stripe lower body...

Sorry for the bad photos... I have a "hand me down" digital camera and no photo editing software...

these first two pics are of the female:

 

[StrangeCargo]

This next photo show the female's belly pattern....

 

[StrangeCargo]

And lastly, a picture of the pair together and a closeup photo of the pattern differences....

 

[Joejr14]

I guess I'm confused on something here....

The snake in question is obviously nothing more than an upper keys stripe. The stripe gene already has a name---and nobody in this hobby has yet to re-coin a name like that (except with the diffused disaster) that is probably pretty even split.

So why does this guy get to name his upper keys stripes 'granites'? What's so wrong with calling it exactly what it is? An upper keys stripe.

It'd be like me introducing bloodred into the keys stock and calling them 'Pumpkin Corns'....

 

[jaxom1957]

Ok, sorry for the delay, Here are pictures of the Rosy Rat pair that just got shipped in this past Tuesday. This bloodline was collected on the same Florida key as the "Granite" Rosy Rats.... From looking at the pics of kingsnake.com of the juvie "Granite" Rosy Rats, I believe my female is what is being called (or argued...whichever side you take) "Granite" Rosy Ratsnakes. She exhibits a plain belly... noticeable lateral striping on the upper ~1/2 to ~1/3 body and a faded pattern/stripe lower body...

The photos are very helpful, thanks. The females does appear to be very similar to the Keys snakes in question. Do you intend to prove her out with a striped male to test the compatability of her form of striping with the existing stripe pattern gene? Should they prove to be the same gene, I believe the issue of which snakes should be called "granite" would be rendered moot. Mutations that alter pattern alone haven't, from what I've seen, been given any unique trade name of their own. Rather, "Motley", "Stripe", "ZigZag", etc., have been used as modifiers to trade names, ie: "Lavender Stripe" and "Amel Motley" rather than "Poledance" and "Graffiti". Because the color seemed to be linked to the diffusion, bloodred combinations have been given unique names, but I see more and more breeders using "diffused" or "bloodred" as a modifier rather than using a trade name for the combination. I personally find that more informative; I know to expect the color of a charcoal lightened and the patter altered. I also find it more in keeping with the normal tendency to use pattern names by themselves rather than in a blended morph name.

 

[Roy Munson]

your words

"And here's another point. I think that if it's so darned important to the person who first applies a name that the name be used correctly, that person needs to do some of the work to establish the name for the morph they have in mind. If someone posts a "Granite Wanted" thread in the classified section, why should I spend my time clarifying the situation while the originator of the morph and a couple of his original customers either refuse to discuss it or ignore that there's a discussion altogether?"


pretty obvious to me.
Especially when you add things like "if it's so damned important..."
You are saying they should have promoted their use of the name and that they either refused to discuss the use of the name or ignored it.
That is why I just don't think you truly do "get it"
It doesn't matter how poorly they promoted the name or how poorly they defended their claim to the name when it was suggested for use.
The ones wanting to use the name for anery bloods knew it was used. It apparently had enough distribution out there for people to bring it to the attention of said group.
Its not about the laws and what may or may not hold up in a court of law its about right or wrong and the ramifications of two geneticaly different snakes having the same name.

I don't know how many other ways I can say that I don't believe that it was right that those people knowingly stole the name. I get it! I get it! But it is no contradiction for me to also stand by my opinion that by doing next to nothing about it, the originators are partially responsible for the situation that exists today. In a perfect world (or at least in a perfect Jimmy/Dean world), they shouldn't have had to do anything. The original "thieves" would have done the right thing, the name wouldn't have been widely adopted for another morph, and this would be a non-issue. But that's not where we are, so we have a few options. 1) Do nothing. 2) Respect the originators' right to the name in our references and labeling. 3) In addition to option two, crusade for the cessation of the name in connection with anery-bloods. I plan on exercising option two. If that's not right enough for you, Jimmy, then I guess it's the end of the discussion on this point. But don't keep claiming that I don't get it. I'll probably even go a little further than option two by supporting the originators' and supporters' claims where I see them-- just like I've been doing all along in this thread.

Saying people don't care about the theft does not mean they are theives. It means they don't care.
you were getting indignant as if you were accused of stealing and then you went on to speak about how you are always the one that bad things happen to.
so yeah "poor little you".

I don't know where you come up with this stuff, Jimmy. Where did I say that I'm "always the one that bad things happen to"? Let me 'fess up here: I've never been involved in a situation involving counterfeit money. It was an ANALOGY to the situation where I've been unknowingly using a morph name that had been stolen from someone else. Get it? I'm a pretty lucky guy in general, Jimmy. Mine is not a sob story.

it may be hard to believe but those low-participation threads are exactly what did change the name.
Then people just began to follow suit.
It happened. There can't be any denying that.

And I don't deny it. And there's no denying that those are low-participation threads. Just because it amazes me that the situation dominoed into what it is today from those low-post threads doesn't mean that I deny that that's what happened.

that group you and I speak of, the do-all, end-all group were here when the change took place. Once again that is why the circle comes back to this site.

I figured that out. I know who you're talking about. But they haven't been on this site for months, and your claims were made in the present tense. I'm not guilty or accountable for the hubris or errors of members who no longer post here, and neither is anyone else who CURRENTLY posts on the board. Even if some members of "that group" are still here, it doesn't justify painting all members here with the same broad brush.

yes I used the word inane.. I felt the comments about a "perfect society" and the real world to be inane.
When I disagree with a persons comments I have the right to respond to them as I see fit.
You have exercised your right to do the same.

You're too hung up on the "perfect society" bit, when that has very little to do with my point. I could have said: "And I could go on all day about the requirements for a perfect discussion, and I might make perfect sense. It doesn't change how real world discussions are carried out one bit." My point would have been the same. We can discuss "should-have-beens" all day, and I think that it's important to do so, to some extent, so we don't make the same mistakes in the future. But it doesn't really change the point we're at right now concerning this issue.

You say there are bigger things in the world and this is all a "yawn" to you.
This obviously means you really don't give a damn. If it is all a "yawn" then there can be no true concern.

It's a yawn RELATIVE to these bigger things, Jimmy. It doesn't mean I don't give a damn. You can put your own spin on everything I write, but it doesn't make you any more correct. You're trying real hard to make it seem like we're on opposite sides of this thing, and we're not. I'm going to exercise option 2(+), and by your words, I'm expecting you to exercise option 3. The basis for our choices is in the SAME THING: respect for the original users of the granite name.

YOU said it doesn't change THE REAL WORLD.
By stating that it does not change the REAL WORLD it creates a separation between THIS world and the REAL WORLD.
You said it not me. By separating this world from the REAL WORLD you indicate this world is less significant.
Sure, you and I could go on without our snakes and they are not our livelyhood, but they are still part of our world and who we are, and they are definitely the REAL WORLD for quite a few people out there.

Again Jimmy, your interpretation of my words leaves much to be desired. Since I'm the expert in what I mean, and not you, I can authoritatively tell you that you've got it wrong. You say: "By separating this world from the REAL WORLD you indicate this world is less signifant." I do no such thing. There's only one world, Jimmy. You want to make me out as some kind of bad guy who has nothing but disrespect for and opposition to the opinions of those who make their livelihood by selling snakes. You'll have to do better than you have so far to make that point. This will be difficult since you are completely wrong. I'll bet that at least 95% of the people who've viewed my opinions in this thread haven't come to the conclusions you have. Hopefully they'll speak up.

we could go on forever... but we won't
post your response and I think our opinions and feelings on this discussion will be just about played out.
No sense boring everyone else with it.

I'll never get bored clarifying my points to someone who intentionally misinterprets them and presents their misinterpretations as facts.

 

[Drizzt80]

Well, I stand by previous statements regarding this issue, but quite frankly it will no longer be but a blip on my radar . . . not that it probably matters to anyone.

WE (meaning CS.com) are chastised for "stealing" the Granite name and accused of being self righteous and labeling ourselves the "naming authority" due to our lack of listening to other sources of information . . . BUT, when the issue resurfaces and comes to light and is debated, no other forums (kingsnake or the source) are included in the discussion . . . This can only mean one of two things:
1. This issue is NOT as important as I was led to believe and therefor the naming of Anery Bloodreds as Granites doesn't matter, OR
2. CS.com IS the naming authority, as the discussion hasn't been taken to other forums for discussion, and hence using Granite for Anery Bloodreds doesn't matter.

I'm fine with that . . . I guess. :shrugs:
D80

 

[Eremita]

(...)
Again Jimmy, your interpretation of my words leaves much to be desired. Since I'm the expert in what I mean, and not you, I can authoritatively tell you that you've got it wrong. You say: "By separating this world from the REAL WORLD you indicate this world is less significant." I do no such thing. There's only one world, Jimmy. You want to make me out as some kind of bad guy who has nothing but disrespect for and opposition to the opinions of those who make their livelihood by selling snakes. You'll have to do better than you have so far to make that point. This will be difficult since you are completely wrong. I'll bet that at least 95% of the people who've viewed my opinions in this thread haven't come to the conclusions you have. Hopefully they'll speak up.

Uh, okay. Dean doesn't often ask for any support (in fact I've never seen this before), and I'm happy to oblige. In all of the discussions I've read, Dean actually has shown plenty of respect for pretty much anyone with experience breeding and keeping corns, even if in some cases he has contrary opinions. In addition, he seriously considers all points raised in such contexts and from my perspective has never been arbitrary or irrational in his conclusions.

Otherwise, I'm a bit exhausted of the topic, though.

-Sean

 

[jazzgeek]

it may be hard to believe but those low-participation threads are exactly what did change the name.
Then people just began to follow suit.
It happened. There can't be any denying that.

FWIW, this appears contradictory to me. If these "low-participation" threads have enough clout to co-opt a trade name and apply to a different cultivar, then it speaks directly to the level of influence such a thread has among those passionately involved in the hobby.

I, for one, will continue to use "Granite" to refer to Anery "A" Bloodred/Diffused, as I suspect the majority of the marketplace will, as well.

The marketplace has spoken.....or would that be "followed suit"?

Oh, and count me in as part of the "95% of the people" who haven't reached the same conclusions as Mr. Johnson.

(and again I say.....does that imply I'm following suit?)

regards,
jazz

 

[jazzgeek]

Ah, I just noticed that Chris ("cka") is currently viewing this thread.

If there ever were a time for "its jsut sankes"........

regards,
jazz

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

just to clarify

Yes I bashed this site to a point but I want to make it clear I do not feel this way about most of the people here.
That is why I frequent this site.
There are a lot of people here I truly respect.

But this is also the most confrontational site I have ever seen.
And some people just follow blindly.
I'm sure I have alienated some people I didn't mean to.
Unfortunately there isn't much I can do about that now.
I can apologise to most of the people who felt offended by what I wrote but not everyone. I'm not sorry for expressing my feelings just for hurting the wrong people.
Even if you weren't included in my disdain for this site I doubt I could convince you now.


anyway ...for most of you I'm truly sorry for lumping you all into a small group.

 

[dr73]

I just read this from top to bottom and all I can say is that I need to go brush my teeth. For some reason I have a bad taste in my mouth. I have only been into corns for a year now so I knew nothing of anyone stealing any names. I have no problems with changing names but GUYS, step back, take a breather, and have a beer on me. When it is all said and done it is ONLY corn snakes.

 

[tom e]

Uh, okay. Dean doesn't often ask for any support (in fact I've never seen this before), and I'm happy to oblige. In all of the discussions I've read, Dean actually has shown plenty of respect for pretty much anyone with experience breeding and keeping corns, even if in some cases he has contrary opinions. In addition, he seriously considers all points raised in such contexts and from my perspective has never been arbitrary or irrational in his conclusions.

Otherwise, I'm a bit exhausted of the topic, though.

-Sean

I agree. I think Jimmy was expecting an argument that didn't really appear.. FWIW, you guys are both kind of championing the same "respect" on the issue which I quite agree with. But I almost don't think there really is a bad guy here, just a heck of alot of enthusiasm and a name that fell victim to it. Then again I haven't been around long enough to know what's meant by "the group".
Oh well, I have been around long enough to have noticed both Dean and Jimmy are a couple of stand up dudes, so I don't know what that argument is about.