Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[SnakeAround]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evolution

I do not believe it would be evolution. If man is putting together species that would never breed in the wild, then it is man made and not natural selection. It is a Frankenstein so to speak. Man would have to manipulate the environment and circumstances to trick the two species into mating. A cali king would never breed with a corn snake in the wild, more than likely the king would consume the corn snake first and for most.

I believe some need new lessons in evolution. We can't just pick and chose which parts of it we want to believe to fit our argument. It is an all or nothing subject.

I'm not syaing it is evolution, I see similarities. And I do believe in it all the way, why do you think I don't?

Tricking snakes into mating might be more unethical then only breeding those who do so volutarily, yet if they can reproduce and the off spring is healthy... do you think the snakes are hurt by it in someway? You cannot actually lock them up, so the lock up is still accepted by the female and apparently the male does not seem to care, or he would not lock up.

Not defending it per se, just looking at it objectively and trying to get emotions/gut feelings out of the discussion. Does it hurt the animals?

 

[beautifullywild77]

I never said I was against Hybrids. I find many of them very beautiful. But comparing how some hybrids are made to evolution is absurd. I do not see similarities because one is natural selection and changes in a species that is done so over a matter a many generations, while the other is where man manipulates nature and tricks two species into breeding when in nature it would never happen.

 

[SnakeAround]

I personally see creating a hybrid for a pet or a pure corn for a pet as equal as both the pet version and the hybrid version would not occur in nature in the form or morph that we generally see in top end morphs. The fear of what hybrids will do to the pure snake gene pool in the hobby is an legitimate as the desire to have pure corn snakes is in and of itself. The real issue that I am seeing however, is simply that there is a desire to keep pure corns pure with no dna testing and thus we are left simply with the word of the breeder or in the case of wild caught corn snakes those that find them. If dna testing were employed then this would give credence to any breeder selling their snakes so long as an actual agreement on what is a pure specimen was first agreed upon. Dna testing would also prove beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that the parents of a snake were indeed the parents one states they are. In this manner, one could create a very nice long pedigree in short time proving their breeding attempts were all legitimate so to speak. A dominant gene like Tessera simply does not appear as a recessive trait. It is dominate so it must appear in a wild caught specimen or else one could argue that it is a mutated gene... the first of its kind if it resulted from a breeding of two corns. If the later is the case, dna testing would prove it out beyond a reasonable doubt. If however it was from a wild caught specimen one would only have the one specimen and then one has to look at what other specimens might have gone into the mix so to speak. Keeping snakes in cages or selectively breeding them is as ethical as breeding hybrids in my book as neither occurs in nature. If you want to see something in nature practice viewing snakes in nature and letting them go in the same spot you captured them.

Right on! But about the Tessera: not sure if I understand you, but of course it is possible that the first was born from a non visual: the first visual was the first with the dominate gene. There must have been a moment the geen mutated and that happened when that first visual was 'composed' inside its mother. The parents were no carriers of the tessera gene.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I never said I was against Hybrids. I find many of them very beautiful. But comparing how some hybrids are made to evolution is absurd. I do not see similarities because one is natural selection and changes in a species that is done so over a matter a many generations, while the other is where man manipulates nature and tricks two species into breeding when in nature it would never happen.

Some plants as well as animals have been produced by a process called hybrid speciation in the wild... i.e. in nature without man's help. So, yes... hybrid speciation is a part of evolution and accepted by the scientific community.

 

[SnakeAround]

Hold on there. The study uncovered genetic traits that were completely unexpected and had never been expressed. If there had been any hybridisation the origin of those traits would have been unprovable. The genetics for floppy ears, curly tail, spotted coats were there in the species itself all along. Do you not understand that as much merit as there is in some hybridisation, it is not the only way to elicit change in a species?
Once again, for emphasis, there was no hybridisation, just years of rigorously conducted breeding trials and scientific methodology. that proved the original hypothesis, that there was indeed a genetic component for temperement. It also, fortuitously, proved that the same genetics corelated to changes in the morphology of that species. If you delve further into the publshed studies, the links between the changes or sensitivities to hormones in the test subjects is really intriguing.
The implications from the studies to changes in various domesticated animals over history, where man originally selecting for behaviours such as 'tameness' may have unwittingly therefore produced such traits as floppy ears, spotted coats etc in antiquity without any need for hybridisation. Again, in the original wild species the genetics for those morphological traits already existed but was not expressed until man's selection process of chosen traits came to influence the subsequent generations of cattle/sheep/dogs or whatever.
To relate this to corns.....without any hybrid theory involved...I have a postulation. By selecting from those snakes which were easily tamed and raised on pinky mice, we could unwittingly have selected those corns with the genetics for such traits as pied/striped/motley. Those genes were never expressed in the wild, until our manipulation of the selected, colourful, easy to raise corns created the right genetic mix for the pattern abnormalities to be expressed. None of us are particularly scientific, but we use Punnet squares to try to predict outcomes, buy from trusted, known sources, and then Voila! Someone puts together just the right combination and in the resulting clutch there are genes expressed we never knew existed, without hybridisation at all. Not created by us, they were in the corn's genome all along.

Or they first muated in a snake we bred, but that does not extract from your point

 

[airenlow]

So, if I take my foxhound mutt and breed her into American foxhound lines, how many generations go by before they are registerable American foxhounds? Honest question...

 

[Outcast]

Josh, that depends on how long it takes for the dogs to get back to the "standard" look for whatever group you register them with. At least that was the way when I was looking to register my Catahoula that was a stray. Never did get around to it though... Not that many of the "big time" kennel clubs accept Catahoula as a breed...

 

[beautifullywild77]

Some plants as well as animals have been produced by a process called hybrid speciation in the wild... i.e. in nature without man's help. So, yes... hybrid speciation is a part of evolution and accepted by the scientific community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation

Notice it says closely related species. I can see the emoyri rat snakes and corns breeding in the wild. They are closely related. Man does not have to manipulate or trick them into breeding even in captivity.

But a corn and a king? I am sorry but when you have to use a female king to trick the male king into breeding mode and then switching out the female with a corn snake at the last min. That is not natural.

 

[Outcast]

There actually have been wild rat/king hybrids found in the wild... Not sure what rat snake is in the mix, but it does happen. Not very often but it has happened.

 

[beautifullywild77]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_Whiptail

Is an example of hybrid speciation.

he New Mexico whiptail (Cnemidophorus neomexicanus) is a species of lizard found in the southern United States in New Mexico and Arizona, and in northern Mexico in Chihuahua. It is the official state reptile of New Mexico.[1] It is one of many lizard species known to be parthenogenic. Individuals of the species can be created either through the hybridization of the little striped whiptail (C. inornatus) and the tiger whiptail (C. tigris), or through the parthenogenic reproduction of an adult New Mexico whiptail.

The hybridization of these species prevents healthy males from forming whereas males do exist in both parent species (see Sexual differentiation). Parthenogenesis allows the resulting all-female population to reproduce and thus evolve into a unique species capable of reproduction. This combination of interspecific hybridization and parthenogenesis exists as a reproductive strategy in several species of whiptail lizard within the Cnemidophorus genus to which the New Mexico whiptail belongs.

 

[beautifullywild77]

There actually have been wild rat/king hybrids found in the wild... Not sure what rat snake is in the mix, but it does happen. Not very often but it has happened.

I did not know that but like you said it doesn't happen very often. There probably was an outside factor that caused the mating. Something man made more than likely. ( I am just guessing, I will have to do more research on it)

But the fact still remains, you can not compare man manipulating species to breed to evolution or natural selection. Or even Hybrid Speciation.

 

[beautifullywild77]

I would also like to add that Science and Biology were not my favorite subjects in school nor did I get good grades. LOL

 

[diamondlil]

So, if I take my foxhound mutt and breed her into American foxhound lines, how many generations go by before they are registerable American foxhounds? Honest question...

Never, if the breed is a 'closed' one, but to address some genetic problems the Kennel Club will work with outcrosses where approved by the breed societies,
Outcrossing programmes – The Kennel Club works with breed clubs to look at suitable outcrossing programmes (where two breeds are crossed together and their great-great grandchildren registered as pedigrees) and at importing dogs from abroad to widen the gene pool. We want to ensure that people have the predictability of pedigree dogs (which includes their exercise, grooming and health needs) so that dogs go to suitable and loving homes, but also to ensure that we prevent the decline of genetic diversity in the future.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation

Notice it says closely related species. I can see the emoyri rat snakes and corns breeding in the wild. They are closely related. Man does not have to manipulate or trick them into breeding even in captivity.

But a corn and a king? I am sorry but when you have to use a female king to trick the male king into breeding mode and then switching out the female with a corn snake at the last min. That is not natural.

I'm not arguing that we aren't helping with many hybrids where it concerns snakes, but I will argue that they wouldn't be able to breed to one another if they were not closely related enough to do so.

 

[Outcast]

A Cal King/ Gopher snake hybrid that was caught in the wild...http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk43/Brewster320/pineking.jpg (probably one of my favorite hybrids.)

 

[dave partington]

Why is it ethical to breed two unrelated locality corns together? Just because a lot of other persons before me bred them together, does that necessarily make it right? 5 billion years ago there was no Earth. Every living organism is somehow related to the next. Why do persons who dislike hybrid snakes seldom dislike hybrid cats and dogs?

 

[Outcast]

Dave.... How dare you ask that question! LOL... Leave me and my puggle alone, we have a play date with the neighbors labradoodle.... (JK, I can't stand dumb names for mix breed mutts...)

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

A Cal King/ Gopher snake hybrid that was caught in the wild...http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk43/Brewster320/pineking.jpg (probably one of my favorite hybrids.)

These snakes can breed to one another as they shared a common ancestor... meaning they are all related or they could not breed together. Take the example above... a naturally occuring hybrid. Now, if this population of cal king x gophers became isolated from other populations say through geographic isolation allopatric speciation could occur and after enough generations a new and homogenous species could be recognized. Given enough generations these snakes of natural hybrid origin may not even be able to breed with members of the same species. Things like this do occur and it is very interesting when it does, but it is just one reason that I can never agree with the comment that a hybrid is always a hybrid and never a pure species. Hybrids also occur naturally such as the one you mentioned and frequently the offspring if not found will simply re-integrate or mix back into either or both parent species.

 

[diamondlil]

Why is it ethical to breed two unrelated locality corns together? Just because a lot of other persons before me bred them together, does that necessarily make it right? 5 billion years ago there was no Earth. Every living organism is somehow related to the next. Why do persons who dislike hybrid snakes seldom dislike hybrid cats and dogs?

Hybrid, as in wolf/dog mixes? I won't pretend to know much about them except they look awesome but can have major behavioural issues. Mr Carpe found a jackal/dog hybrid project, it's on here a few pages back. Ligers are awesome

 

[dave partington]

Or even with hybrid chickens, cows, ducks, pheasant, turkeys, edible crops, cotton, flax...so many hybrid plant and animal "products" that we consume every day, often without thinking about their origin. Every time we purchase any of them, are we not sending a message to the hybridizers that we support what they are doing by giving them money?