Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[Outcast]

But if one is produced by parthenogenesis, then it would be exactly as its mom, sex and all, meaning it could not be bred back to mom because it would be female...

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Not true, mom carries both sets, its the male that carries only one set with snakes. Also, there is a shuffling that happens even in parthenogenesis.

 

[dave partington]

Where were others with these thoughts in the "Do you always disclose hets?" thread. I thought I was the lone "unscrupulous" dude.

A badge to wear proudly. I usually scroll to the bottom of the page when I get to a thread, to see who is watching and saying nothing.

Howdy wise friends.

 

[dave partington]

But if one is produced by parthenogenesis, then it would be exactly as its mom, sex and all, meaning it could not be bred back to mom because it would be female...

Also do a google search on ( totally unrelated ) Komodo Dragon Parthenogenesis,
where it looks like a lone unfertilized female can swim to a nearby island and lay fertile eggs which all hatch male. So she will have something to have fun with later. Sick sick sick.

Some of the posts on the end of the link show an expectation of all the offspring of a clutch of an unfertilized snow to hatch 100% snow, but possible hets are not taken into account. I did not respond on the linked thread because it is wayyy old. Chuck once said something about the more we mix up the genetics contained in our respective pet herds, the more mutations will occur, or something along those lines. Which makes some sense, because before the interwebs, hamsters never danced.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16316

 

[Outcast]

Actually you are mixing things up. Unless I am incorrect. Male gametes are XY and females are XX... so the female would be producing only X gametes, while the male would be producing X and Y gametes. Hence the reason that most parthenogenesis species are all female.

Now, I say most because in Komodo dragons, the offspring of parthenogenesis are all male (http://www.findingdulcinea.com/feat...s--When-Animals-Reproduce-Without-a-Mate.html). That website also speaks of the New Mexico whiptail, which is a species of all females. And, that in sharks, as far as we know, all offspring will be female. And, unfertilized eggs in honeybees grow to become male drones....

Now, if corn snakes genders are determined by the WW and WZ (all I can find is that Komodo Dragons, and "some reptiles" along with birds and insects, have this system) then I understand what you are saying. But if they have the "normal" XX/XY" determined sexes, then I would be correct.

But, calling on my very limited knowledge of genetics (taking it this semester, yay!) the shuffling that you are speaking of really has nothing to do with sex but other things that get expressed. Unless of course, I am wrong and am getting my cell division/mitosis meiosis phases all mixed up. I do have a migraine right now..LOL

 

[Outcast]

Yep Dave. I think that is the reproductive process that Carpe is referring too. I am trying to find out if it is the same pathway that is utilized by our corns, but am having trouble finding it...

 

[SnakeAround]

Not everybody has the space to keep all project off spring nor does everybody think it is ethical to have kings babysit the hets because the breeder wants to protect the market (read: his wallet). Yeah baby, breed high end morphs but kill the left overs, because we are so noble to protect the market....

Then there is the possibility to not disclose the hets, which brings another load of el cheapo off spring on the market. On the other hand, over here people hardly want to pay anymore for 100% hets unless they are very rare or if there are a multitude, so maybe it would be a good idea to not disclose the hets from the start and try to dump the whole bunch whole sale. But, is that we want?

I think we have to accept that we cannot protect the prices as long as any Joe or Jane can buy corns and breed them. It's the nature of corns that causes this, they are very easy to breed and lay quite some eggs each clutch.

I know a breeder whom thinks we should all just exhange snakes between breeders and work on projects together instead of trying to maintain higher prices and be secretive and competitive. If we are not gonna make money from it anyway, why not dismiss the whole money aspect when it comes to the breeding animals and just enjoy the hobby? Also this way not the people with the money but the ones with a good reputation and the right contacts get the opportunity to breed high end stuff. Of course that's not a realistic idea because I think not many people would be willing to join but it does make sense to me.

By the way Carpe, am I right to understand that with the dna testing morph genes can be proven? So, one might be able to test wether a certain snakes carries scaleless gene for example?

 

[Chip]

Not everybody has the space to keep all project off spring nor does everybody think it is ethical to have kings babysit the hets because the breeder wants to protect the market (read: his wallet).

I agreed with your whole post except this is where you are either being inexperienced or dishonest. You aren't protecting YOUR wallet by selling babies for whatever you can get from them, far from it. You are protecting the wallets of other investors, and especially the people who bought them from you! I assure you if you bought a high end morph from me for $1000 today, and found out I was selling it's het siblings for 50 bucks, you'd be less than happy. I don't advocate feeding them to kingsnakes, but my point stands.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

ZW produces females and ZZ produces males when dealing with snakes.

 

[dave partington]

Not everybody has the space to keep all project off spring nor does everybody think it is ethical to have kings babysit the hets because the breeder wants to protect the market (read: his wallet). Yeah baby, breed high end morphs but kill the left overs, because we are so noble to protect the market....

Then there is the possibility to not disclose the hets, which brings another load of el cheapo off spring on the market. On the other hand, over here people hardly want to pay anymore for 100% hets unless they are very rare or if there are a multitude, so maybe it would be a good idea to not disclose the hets from the start and try to dump the whole bunch whole sale. But, is that we want?

I think we have to accept that we cannot protect the prices as long as any Joe or Jane can buy corns and breed them. It's the nature of corns that causes this, they are very easy to breed and lay quite some eggs each clutch.

I know a breeder whom thinks we should all just exhange snakes between breeders and work on projects together instead of trying to maintain higher prices and be secretive and competitive. If we are not gonna make money from it anyway, why not dismiss the whole money aspect when it comes to the breeding animals and just enjoy the hobby? Also this way not the people with the money but the ones with a good reputation and the right contacts get the opportunity to breed high end stuff. Of course that's not a realistic idea because I think not many people would be willing to join but it does make sense to me.

By the way Carpe, am I right to understand that with the dna testing morph genes can be proven? So, one might be able to test wether a certain snakes carries scaleless gene for example?

Assuming scaleless is a gene, and not a trait. it appears to me as if removal of the genetics for producing scales is a trait; the removal of the genetics for producing scales. Something more then a mere single gene.

Any Joe or Jane can buy them and keep and breed them. Without Joe and Jane, there would be no backdoor discount transactions via email off the threads. There is, however, a difference between making no money and losing money.

How many baby snakes can all of the persons producing babies sell to now. Sure, there was a time when there was more interest then production. Are we headed towards the cliff when more are produced then the market 'demand' is? What will we do then? I'd really like for someone to tell me please.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

When more are produced then the market demands those that breed for the joy of breeding will be left.

 

[Chip]

Left to keep everything we produce?

 

[dave partington]

That was the most thought provoking post I have seen in a very long time.
I am tossing rep points at you SnakeAround!!!
Not that anyone can see them.
Thanks for sharing.
But it looks like I gave you points recently so cannot do it again

When more are produced then the market demands those that breed for the joy of breeding will be left.

Well, for those of you who have billions of euros sitting around in your basement serving no purpose, perhaps yes.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Chip, I see it all as balance. When more are produced then the market demands those that breed for the joy of breeding will be left. Then, the market will pick back up as those that do so for the profit will have left as the profit will have left. Then the vultures move back in and so on and so forth.

 

[diamondlil]

Chip, I see it all as balance. When more are produced then the market demands those that breed for the joy of breeding will be left. Then, the market will pick back up as those that do so for the profit will have left as the profit will have left. Then the vultures move back in and so on and so forth.

If you ever breed and have a whole clutch (or several clutches) of beautiul healthy babies that you can't even give away you may be a little less sanguine about it. From biting your hands off for all you produce to 'Nope, don't need any corns' in one year is no fun at all. Doesn't take away at all the joys of seeing those pippies, first sheds and healthy, great-feeding corn babies, but finding you go from no profit to a loss to a bigger loss happens.
I haven't even put big money into my breeders, just built up a modest collection with genetics I like. Which luckily means I can leave off breeding and just enjoy my pets. Only 1 project will go ahead chez moi this year and as it will be as far as I know a UK first the hets won't be disclosed for any non-target hatchlings.

 

[bitsy]

How many baby snakes can all of the persons producing babies sell to now. Sure, there was a time when there was more interest then production. Are we headed towards the cliff when more are produced then the market 'demand' is? What will we do then? I'd really like for someone to tell me please.

Cats and dogs are already massively over-bred and have been for decades - that's your model. Hobby or accidental breeders selling at pocket money prices or giving them away for free, to homes which sometimes don't care. Farm-type breeders, churning them out in industrial quantities with no regard to the welfare of breeding females or where the hatchlings end up, as long as there's a buck in it. The growth of rescue services. More healthy, nicely tempered snakes being euthanased simply because they can't be found homes. Unwanted snakes being neglected or dumped. Responsible owners not breeding at all, to avoid adding to the problem. Many breeders thinking that it's the other breeders who are causing the problem.*

But as with dogs and cats, breeding won't ever stop. There is no "cliff" for the human element. The snakes are the only ones which will suffer.

_____


*Worth noting that all of this is already happening with Corns.

 

[chris68]

We are dealing with the "pet market" in regards to corns; that the whole "group" of animals is suspect has been talked about for years so I don't see why we would have to designate what is vs what isn't when it's all speculation anyway. There are several breeders who work with "clean" pet market corns that can produce records that trace their snakes lineage down to the GPS coordinate so if the consumer who wishes for "pure stock" does their homework and doesn't impulse buy and regret it later, discussions like this will be a thing of the past. (no offense to the OP, this will always be a hot topic )

 

[Outcast]

ZW produces females and ZZ produces males when dealing with snakes.

Can you post a reference for this? Like I said, everything I have found states Komodo dragons and "some reptile species"...
Thanks.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I've seen comments such as, it looks like the intended clutch was a result of last years sperm retention. I've seen comments such as the breeder really isn't sure where a morph came from, or the het didn't prove out and my money was not returned.... which leaves me to believe that even the best laid plans or records may sometimes go awry. Any time a breeder accepts a snake from any place/person they are accepting every everything in that snakes history accidental or unaccounted for and every breeder that snakes lineage has come into contact wit as well. To those breeders that can track ever snake they own down to its gps coordinates.. can one ever be truly sure a breeding is not from a previous years sperm retention?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/48/18190
Abstract
All snake species exhibit genetic sex determination with the ZZ/ZW type of sex chromosomes.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=experts-temperature-sex-determination-reptiles
n this case—which governs all snake species—males are the homogametic sex (ZZ) and females are the heterogametic sex (ZW).
Sex can obviously also be determined by dna testing as well as parentage. More food for thought.