questions about morphs

[Vinman]

egg you are missing the point it goes on to say what I been saying, the okeetee so called look comes from NC to north Fl so if you wanted to name them after there look then coastel corns in what the color and pattren come from. okeetee are costal corns they are bigger and better colored than most inland populations.
Now egg there is a whole lot of things that make a okeetee specal the fact that the color not only the hughe that we are talking about it is the deepness, the scales have more of a keel to them, the large size , the heavy thickness of the body, the fact that most of okeetee corns lack the white flecks, it aint uncomon to have a animal with thick boarders. the best black borders are in southern Ga. and what about the big sadles. so just because you got a snake with some good backround color and some thick black rings doesn't mean your animal looks like a true okeetee
Now rich I answered all your questions So how come you did not answer mine. when isthe last time that you had atrue okeetee when was the last time that you a pr. of pure okeetees together how many years have it been as of two years ago you told it been many years.

serp when you think okeetee you think of a animal that has every good trait that a okeetee has to offer . when you go down there you will find the snake you are looking for is the holey grail of okeetee corns. Very hard to find. serp you are wrong when you say bright ground color . okeetees are know for their deep mohoghaney ground color ,bright are not the norm and black boarders are more comon than a bright color,as carl said : Some have a ground color of mouse gray with dark scarlet blotches, others - the prettiest - have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches. It is odd that the lighter-colored snakes usually have fewer body blotches, Serp it was carl that coined the name not bill love. It was carl that wrote about the corns ,it is carl that made them famous ,not bill love
it might say lighter color but it don't mean bright. I have to agree with this my first snakes that I wanted to breed were corns one 1.0 F1 okeetee ,0.1 het amel . and 4 months latter his sister 0.1 okeetee 18 months latter I breed all 3 so you can say that I been produceing okeetees for 20 yeasr with no more that 2 years missed.

 

[E. g. guttata]

egg you are missing the point it goes on to say what I been saying, the okeetee so called look comes from NC to north Fl so if you wanted to name them after there look then coastel corns in what the color and pattren come from. okeetee are costal corns they are bigger and better colored than most inland populations.
Now egg there is a whole lot of things that make a okeetee specal the fact that the color not only the hughe that we are talking about it is the deepness, the scales have more of a keel to them, the large size , the heavy thickness of the body, the fact that most of okeetee corns lack the white flecks, it aint uncomon to have a animal with thick boarders. the best black borders are in southern Ga. and what about the big sadles. so just because you got a snake with some good backround color and some thick black rings doesn't mean your animal looks like a true okeetee
Now rich I answered all your questions So how come you did not answer mine. when isthe last time that you had atrue okeetee when was the last time that you a pr. of pure okeetees together how many years have it been as of two years ago you told it been many years.

serp when you think okeetee you think of a animal that has every good trait that a okeetee has to offer . when you go down there you will find the snake you are looking for is the holey grail of okeetee corns. Very hard to find. serp you are wrong when you say bright ground color . okeetees are know for their deep mohoghaney ground color ,bright are not the norm and black boarders are more comon than a bright color,as carl said : Some have a ground color of mouse gray with dark scarlet blotches, others - the prettiest - have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches. It is odd that the lighter-colored snakes usually have fewer body blotches, Serp it was carl that coined the name not bill love. It was carl that wrote about the corns ,it is carl that made them famous ,not bill love
it might say lighter color but it don't mean bright. I have to agree with this my first snakes that I wanted to breed were corns one 1.0 F1 okeetee ,0.1 het amel . and 4 months latter his sister 0.1 okeetee 18 months latter I breed all 3 so you can say that I been produceing okeetees for 20 yeasr with no more that 2 years missed.

Okay Vinny, I have a pic that I want you to view. Tell me what you think of it.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Serp it was carl that coined the name not bill love. It was carl that wrote about the corns ,it is carl that made them famous ,not bill love

So what you're saying is "I called it first." Whomever wrote about it first has sole possession of a word and it can only have one definition for all the rest of eternity.

That is NOT how words work. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of words in this language that have multiple definitions. If there is only one allowable definition for any word then you cannot say that Kauffeld "coined" the name because the word "coin" means a metal piece of money and it cannot mean anything else, so your usage is invalid. Kauffeld could not have "coined" a name because he did not create any little pieces of metal money with the word "Okeetee" on it.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Oh, and egg, I think it's more like QxF2++

 

[Joejr14]

Vin, just give it up.

You're arguing against everyone else, and your argument holds no water.

As has been said before, you cannot arbitrarily assign borders and say, anything inside this border is type A, anything outside is type B. But, that's what you're doing. Problem is, out of 3 pages of comments, nobody agrees with you.

Animals are not caught, sold, or bred from a specific locale because they're from that locale. They are caught, sold, and bred because they have a look that might happen to be very common in that locale.

If you're soooooooo giddy about locality corns, I've got a Tallahassee corn I'll sell you really cheap. $500, only true 'Tallahassee locality' on the market.

It's a steal man, take it!

 

[kathylove]

WOW! Looks like I have almost missed out on the fun!

Lots of interesting points, although it seems like they have been well-debated before without changing anyone's mind.

It is true that there are a number of locality purists who would pay very good $$$ to buy a really ugly animal if very specific locality data was available for it, and the locality interested that collector. I myself have no interest in locality UNLESS I like the way the animal looks, as well as other attributes (health, feeding, etc). But there are even more people who couldn't care less about locality and only want what they consider a beautiful snake. However, there is plenty of room for all. But I do agree with Rich...

"Another perspective of this is that once a human being decides which male breeds with which female, then the selection of of what offspring are being produced is no longer "natural"."

That is especially true when pet keepers (as opposed to hardcore purists) tell me they like okeetees because they prefer a natural color, instead of the "man-made" colors. I find this strange, since the selectively bred okeetees I produce now look a lot different from their ancestors I first obtained in the '80s and early '90s. They are not really any more "natural" than a snow corn, in my opinion. But I breed them this way because I like the way they look, and so do my customers. But I don't think that I have made the same breeding choices that Mother Nature would have made given the same founding stock (all from Jasper Co, AFAIK).

As Serp said, definitions change with usage. For example, I much prefer the terms "amel" over red albino and "anery" over black albino (even though those terms themselves are shortened versions of the proper words). But so many of my customers use those terms (albino) that I have come to use both, and try to link them together when using them so that customers will realize they are interchangable, and will come to know both terms.

I personally think that use of "locality okeetee" (whatever that locality means EXACTLY to the locality purists) and "okeetee phase" would help clear confusion, but like our other morph names, public acceptance is what decides the use.

We don't have an "AKC" to standardize our terms, so we have to each decide what makes sense, and then see what stands the test of time. For my part, I will probably clarify it further on my site so that customers can read my explanation and then decide for themselves if what I produce is what they want.

 

[Rich Z]

So if I interpret your answer correctly, Vinny, then you have told us that any corn snake even close to Jasper County that LOOKS like an Okeetee Corn Snake IS an Okeetee Corn Snake. Do I have that right? How far out from Jasper County does this bending of the locality border rules apply?

I think I have sufficiently summed up my thoughts on the matter concerning Okeetee Corn Snakes on my SerpenCo website, Vinny. I don't see any reason to repeat it here. I do not *know* that I have ever really had pure Okeetee Corn Snakes. I never collected any there myself, and everything I have heard about the ones I have gotten are just hearsay. Yes, I was told they were *pure*, but even back then, in the early 80s, I took this with a BIG grain of salt. You said it yourself, when people can get more money for an animal that can apply a name to like Okeetee Corn, then there is always that incentive to apply such terms to animals that really aren't what they are supposed to be. Do you THINK that people who say they are, and have been, collecting wild caught Okeetee Corn Snakes are immune from this influence? So when you say you got your *pure* Okeetee corns from so-and-so, and they are the real thing because YOU believe them, who do you think you are kidding? Why is it that you think some of those guys in South Carolina would not dare to lie to YOU? Especially if they could make some bucks off of you if they did?

So tell me, Vinny. How many of the corn snakes that you have that you are calling *TRUE* Okeetee Corn Snakes positively, PROVABLY came from those original 10 acreas on the Okeetee Hunt Club that Carl Kauffeld indicated in his book that was the holy grail of corn snakes? Not "nearby", or "close to", or "someone told me". How many do you have that you PERSONALLY KNOW came from that area?

 

[Vinman]

I got 2 males that are wild caught by me out of the six I caught in 95 and I was given a fem from happhazzard rd. in 94 by my friend John Boggie Green who lived down there and hunted as a boy with carl. In 94 the male I caught died 3 weeks after I got home. So I got 2.1 wild and caught 8 in my three trips.I was also offerd some other males that came from down there 2 beaufort Co ,less that 1 mile from the jasper boarder and one male from southern jasper Co all three I sold as wild Sc corns not one I sold as okeetee.
dont twist my words rich I said that any corns from a 1/4 mile of the jasper Co boader is the same gene pool as the okeetee . I never said :
then you have told us that any corn snake even close to Jasper County that LOOKS like an Okeetee Corn Snake IS an Okeetee Corn Snake. Do I have that right? How far out from Jasper County does this bending of the locality border rules apply?

I also said that there are cirten places in jasper that I dont hunt . So are you reading my post realy good or are you skiming through it?

there are alot of SC colectors that sell people okeetees and they are 50 miles away Ricky Walters told me for years that he sells all these corns as okeetee. He told me for years that he sell them to glades herp You know ricky and so does kathy.

 

[Vinman]

Egg it is a nice corn snake and it looks more prety than my pure okeetees . dont think that I just like okeetees in normal corns a pretty corn is a prety corn.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Now egg there is a whole lot of things that make a okeetee specal the fact that the color not only the hughe that we are talking about it is the deepness, the scales have more of a keel to them, the large size , the heavy thickness of the body, the fact that most of okeetee corns lack the white flecks, it aint uncomon to have a animal with thick boarders.

Gee, they sure are different from the rest of corndom. What makes you think they aren't hybrids or intergrades? That's what is suggested every time any other corn is "different" in any way.

 

[Vinman]

serp I agree with you 100 percent there might be. Tere was a small debate about okeetee many years ago with a few members of NYHS about whether okeetees have yellow rat in them. Yes they are unique so are delaware corns they too have a large size and heavy body animal. and heavy keeld scale. now across the water you are in cape may NJ I dont know if corns live there but a little north, north west is the pine barrans .in NJ. there the corns are small thin bodied small saddaled and few saddals on the body. they dont have a lot of color, a straw to straw/orange back round color. NOw the corns in the pine barrons are not the same any more because in the 70's a couple of keepers from staten Island zoo wernt going to the okeetee so they let go baby okeetees in the pine barrons tho help out the pupolation. what they did is destroy the gene pool. from what I gathered they did this a few diffrent years and let go many animals. There are only a few spots that the true jersey corn stock is in its pure state. Many years ago I had a pr. of pine barron's corns that were 4 th gen . the oranigal stock was caught before the law went into effect,protecting jersey corns. Dont you think it is strange that corns in delawere and okeetee have these simalar characteristic being so far away from eachother. Is mabee its just diffrent vareibls are more present than others.

 

[Charlie]

Personally, I think if it looks like an okeetee...it should be labeled as an okeetee. But there is also a fine line in that too. They must have certain characteristics. I think the big black borders is the most inmportant characteristic known to an okeetee. I am not saying that if the borders weren't huge...that it wasn't a okeetee. I also think that locality does play a part but know an days...isn't a big deal. I mean...those that do breed their okeetees from only certain localities...more power to you. I just think there is more to an okeetee than locality and just because an okeetee doesn't come from Jasper Co or wherever doesn't make it less of an okeetee.

 

[Rich Z]

Menhir & joejr14 when you get a animal that is from pure Jasper Co. stock that is a okeetee I dont care what the animal looks like. whem a animal looks like a perfect okeetee ( big black borders) if it is not a pure jasper Co. stock it is a okeetee phase . just like miami phase there is a dirffrenance between a pure miami and a miami phase most corns in the hobby are not pure miami that is why we call miami phase. only true miami are called miami the rest are called miami phase. This is the only way of makeing sure that if a person that wants a pure okeetee gets what they want. this is why we use the term phase the loves are thinking of droping the name okeetee and useing the name classic corn. by using the term phase is the only way to distingush between a pure and a look a like. To some people dont care if it is pure or not and then you have the pureist.It is more professional to use the term phase. since most people do not have pure okeetees. Another thing the okeetee look goes from SC to north Fl . So if i catch a corn in Jacksonville Fl with thick black borders and a bright orange back round then it is a okeetee, NO it is a Jacksonville corn with a okeetee pattren hence the term okeetee phase. So the snake would be a pure Jacksonville corn in okeetee phase. this whole thing is stupid if it is a okeetee then it is from Jasper Co. if not it is just a normal pretty corn. the name okeetee is a localaty and people should use the right terms. Most abuse the term okeetee that does not make it right!!!

dont twist my words rich I said that any corns from a 1/4 mile of the jasper Co boader is the same gene pool as the okeetee .

Well, I guess I'm just not straight yet on this locality thing. I'm not twisting words, I am reading directly from what you wrote. First they have to come directly from Okeetee Hunt Club. Then that was widened to include all of Jasper Country. Now, this is widened even further to include a radius of 1/4 mile outside of the borders of Jasper County.

So, although a corn may be up to 1/4 mile outside of Jasper County, then it is still considered as a *pure* Okeetee Corn? Why "1/4 mile"? Who is it that came up with this iron clad definition of what qualifies to be a *true* Okeetee corn? And why would a corn identical to the corns 1/4 mile from the Jasper County border that might be 1/4 mile and 2 feet away from that border NOT be considered as *true* Okeetee Corns? :shrugs:

And back to the original message that started this thread, and Vinny replied with:

no true okeetees you will have normals. Okeetee is not a mutation it is a localitly. Some might look like okeetees so you can call them okeetee phase

So tell me, why would it be that an Okeetee Corn Snake, as long as it doesn't get further away then 1/4 mile from the Jasper County border that may have been produced by a tryst of one of the "insider" Okeetee Corns mating with an "outsider NORMAL" corn that came from beyond that 1/4 mile marker is still considered as a *true* Okeetee Corn Snake, yet someone taking a *true* Okeetee Corn Snake in their house somewhere in Michigan and breeding it with a normal corn does not produce Okeetee Corns?

Suppose for a moment that someone LIVES within that 1/4 mile *true* Okeetee zone and takes one of their *true* Okeetee Corns and breeds it with some corn they caught 10 miles outside of that boundary. Does that make the offspring Okeetee Corns since the breeding took place inside the limits? Certainly the babies would be produced within that locality as well, wouldn't they?

Just what is the difference between a *true* Okeetee Corn breeding with some normal corn that tresspassed into the True Okeetee Corn Snake Zone and someone breeding a *true* Okeetee Corn with something that came from anywhere else? At what point is this *trueness* lost forever?

 

[Vinman]

Quote;
Well, I guess I'm just not straight yet on this locality thing. I'm not twisting words, I am reading directly from what you wrote. First they have to come directly from Okeetee Hunt Club. Then that was widened to include all of Jasper Country. Now, this is widened even further to include a radius of 1/4 mile outside of the borders of Jasper County.
Rich the stock that is 1/4 a mile away from jasper breed with corns with jasper blood. I'm sure cluthes that hatch within 1/4 mile from jasper boader go both ways and clutches within a 1/4 mile in jaspre I'm sure go outside jasper and deeper in jasper. Easy rich that is the natural way the snakes breed that is nature . They are the same geen pool .

quote; So, although a corn may be up to 1/4 mile outside of Jasper County, then it is still considered as a *pure* Okeetee Corn? Why "1/4 mile"? Who is it that came up with this iron clad definition of what qualifies to be a *true* Okeetee corn? And why would a corn identical to the corns 1/4 mile from the Jasper County border that might be 1/4 mile and 2 feet away from that border NOT be considered as *true* Okeetee Corns?

no rich even though they are the same stock you got to draw a line some where. I never said that a corn that is a 1/4 mile away is a true okeetee I said that they share the same genes that is twisting my words around. and I said the okeetee look goes from NC to north Fl. THis is why the term okeetee is invalid. the color and pattren that you call okeetee does not olny come from jasper it goes across hundreds of miles. I could see if this color and pattren only came from jasper but it streches over hundreds of miles. There fore since we are talking about the snakes that came out of jasper Co . it is a collection point . I even said that there are some places in jasper Co that I dont consider okeetee. it all depends where you are in the county.

quote; Suppose for a moment that someone LIVES within that 1/4 mile *true* Okeetee zone and takes one of their *true* Okeetee Corns and breeds it with some corn they caught 10 miles outside of that boundary. Does that make the offspring Okeetee Corns since the breeding took place inside the limits? Certainly the babies would be produced within that locality as well, wouldn't they?

what kinda of garbage is this rich you know as well as this I it is just a normal SC corn. As my pure okeetees born in NYC are pure okeetee corns.like I said before that someone up here did the cross you are talking about I told you that I dont call them okeetees. so now all your snakes are talahassesse corns? You know better than this. lets stop saying things that you know are wrong. I thought that we were haveing a intelligent debate?

quote;Just what is the difference between a *true* Okeetee Corn breeding with some normal corn that tresspassed into the True Okeetee Corn Snake Zone and someone breeding a *true* Okeetee Corn with something that came from anywhere else? At what point is this *trueness* lost forever?

easy rich if you cant understand this then I dont know what to tell you because now you are not makeing any sinse The nalrual stock that is around jasper is just what I said natrual stock. the fact that okeetees corns dont mate with corns from Fl. or a couples of miles north of jasper or corns from NC,Va,NJ,Kt,Del.Tenassesse,Mss,Al,and Ga south of jasper. all these states corns do not breed with okeetee corns. there fore they are not what you find in okeetee. ther do not share the same dna. there genes vary some what. and what about all thoes garbage muts in the hobby I dont remember seeing jungle corns ,gopher corns,emoryi ,ect. in the okeetee So carl talked about the special corns that came from one place . whether they came from horance philps land or good hope, chelase ,or the okeetee property. the are all okeetee corns remember that the okeetee has bought and sold land over most of the county. This is where carl made the corns from famous, thisis where his collection point was , not all over the range of costal corns.

 

[Rich Z]

But Vinny, Carl Kauffeld specifically talks about the corns locality as such:

"over an area of at most ten square miles"

.

It appears that YOU are enlarging that area to encompass 1/4 mile surrounding the entirety of Jasper County. What I am saying is that if YOU can make this arbitrary designation about what constitutes a *true* Okeetee, then what is there to limit someone else from making an arbitrary distinction as well, yet not the same as yours? Why couldn't someone validly say that they choose to say that any corn found within 10 miles of Jasper County is a *true* Okeetee Corn?

Do you see what I am talking about here? You can't have your cake and eat it too with definitions of "locality". If you change the rules by making some arbitrary decisions of convenience, then there ARE no rules. If you can say that a corn snake caught ANYWHERE near the Okeetee Hunt Club is a *true* Okeetee Corn because it looks good enough, although it may have bred with an *untrue* Okeetee Corn, then anyone breeding anything into an Okeetee Corn can make that same claim of their babies if they look "good enough".

And those areas of Jasper County that you don't consider as "Okeetee". Now why is that? Do the corns look differently there? Are you saying that normal corns are also found within the locality of what you define as the locality source of *true* Okeetee Corn Snakes? If this is true, do you think maybe they breed together? And if they produce babies, suppose some of them look "good enough" to be *true* Okeetees and some don't. What then?

If you pick those "good enough" babies and note them to be *true* Okeetees, yet the others as only normal corns, then aren't you completely defeating the entire reason for arguing that they are locality specific corns? Haven't you just based your identification on APPEARANCE instead of locality?

Oh yeah, the "Okeetee Genes" thing. But again, if someone breeds a *true* Okeetee to something from Tallahassee, don't the resulting offspring in those matings also carry those "Okeetee Genes"? Or do those genes only kick in if those babies are hatched within a certain locality, or if the normal corn that came 'a courtin' crosses into the Okeetee Zone? But what happens if a studly *true* Okeetee male goes off hunting a female and finds the apple of his eye 5 miles away? What are his babies then? :shrugs: :shrugs:

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

Vin

You just don't get it.

If a corn snake has a clutch of eggs three miles from any considered "okeetee" border (whatever it may be). Would those babies be Okeetee?
By your definition, NO, they are not Okeetee.
Do you agree so far?

Now, as those hatchlings spread out and grow to be adults one is now within 1 1/2 miles of the "okeetee" border. It finds a mate and they produce offspring.
Are these offspring okeetees?
By your definition, NO, they are not okeetee.
Agree so far?

Now as these hatchlings spread out and mature one makes it into the given "okeetee" borders.
This snake now finds a mate (in the okeetee borders) and they produce offspring.
These offspring are born within the "okeetee" borders.
Are these offspring okeetees?
If you didn't know their history and found them within the "okeetee" borders, would they be okeetees?
By your definition if they were found there that would make them "true locale okeetee corn snakes"

answer these questions with simple yes or no answers and we can work from there.

I will go ahead and post my opinion on it.
By your definition, not knowing their origin but being found within the okeetee borders, this would make them okeetees.
But by your same definitons, the fact that their ancestry does not trace back to the "okeetee" borders they obviously can't be okeetees.
But if they were found there how would you know?
It is impossible to know their true origin so who, including you, can say they are or are not "true locality okeetee corn snakes"

The same easily acts in reverse.
Corns in the exact epicenter of the "okeetee" borders produce offspring.
Let's say several of these clutches are produced by different pairs in the "okeetee" borders. These hatchlings spread out to new territories.
It just so happens that a pair of these "okeetee" area conceived and born snakes venture out of the okeetee borders but still hook up and produce offspring.
As these hatchlings mature you find one 3 or 4 or even 5 miles from the "okeetee" borders, is it an okeetee?
By one of your definitions it should be. Lineage straight to the center of the "okeetee" region. No different then catching two supposedly "true okeetee locale corn snakes" and taking them home and breeding them. The blood line would be "true Okeetee locale corn snake"
but also by your definition because the snake was five miles from the "okeetee" border and you obviously have no idea of its ancestry when you find it, it can't be okeetee.

what I am saying is simple.
There is just no way to know how much locale "blood" has traveled in and out of the given area.
So, if it looks okeetee it is okeetee.

If I took two florida corns with the "look" and bred them together, picked their offspring with the "look" and bred them together until I got the perfect Okeetee look and took two corn snakes caught within the "okeetee" border and bred them for several generations and produced the perfect oketee look how could/would you tell them apart and what would make one worth more then the other?

 

[E. g. guttata]

Egg it is a nice corn snake and it looks more prety than my pure okeetees . dont think that I just like okeetees in normal corns a pretty corn is a prety corn.

Nice avoidance of the post Vin. You cannot call this an Okeetee by your definition, because you don't know the background of it's family. You CAN call it an okeetee because it FOLLOWS Carl's description of one. The look of the snake was named okeetee BECAUSE of where it was found. For it to be a locality, you would have to go to that area to LOOK for this look in the snake. NOW. If we agree on those two premises (that Carl didn't describe the look until he first saw it, and that, to be a locality, one has to know that there is that look in a certain area) then it can be safely said that the term okeetee was applied to the look and not the locality. Which means that for this argument, it is not we who should be calling any snake that looks similar to Carl's description "Okeetee Phase", it is you who should call all your locality corns "Locality Okeetees". It seems very obvious to me that the locality people are trying to change the meaning of the term "Okeetee" so you should be the ones with the special terminology.

 

[Vinman]

Jimmy Johnson I think I all ready said this, this is how the natural population has been breeding forever ,the stock that is 1/4 a mile away from jasper breed with corns with jasper blood. I'm sure cluthes that hatch within 1/4 mile from jasper boader go both ways and clutches within a 1/4 mile in jasper I'm sure they go outside jasper and deeper in jasper. Easy that is the natural way the snakes breed that is nature . They are the same geen pool . although
you got to drawaline some where.
Rich
Quote:
"over an area of at most ten square miles"

Carl refrance is about a 10 Sq. miles is talking about a patch of land in the okeetee he never said the okeetee comeprises of 10 sq. miles. you should know better since been there.You are very good at twisting words.

quote; And those areas of Jasper County that you don't consider as "Okeetee". Now why is that? Do the corns look differently there? Are you saying that normal corns are also found within the locality of what you define as the locality source of *true* Okeetee Corn Snakes? If this is true, do you think maybe they breed together? And if they produce babies, suppose some of them look "good enough" to be *true* Okeetees and some don't. What then?

Now carl never wrote about hunting below horance philps land never thalked about hunting the town of Grays. People that I know that went hunting with him told he didnot hunt those places,the grays are far from the okeetee so is south hardyvill. If you had a map like me, out lined by locals that hunted with carl then you can say something about location. but you are talking blind.you have no ieda where the oteetee starts and ends. you have no coralatetion where good hope and chelase is to the okeetee . The fact that I put 20 years of finding out the history . the what when who where and why. I been colecting data for all this time . and no, I havent wrote it down it is all in my head.

quote; If you pick those "good enough" babies and note them to be *true* Okeetees, yet the others as only normal corns, then aren't you completely defeating the entire reason for arguing that they are locality specific corns? Haven't you just based your identification on APPEARANCE instead of locality?

Rich who said that I pick through my babies and decide which is okeetee or not that is your thing. I have true okeetees and told you many times that the looks dont count I will sell the ulgyist babies that comes from this skock as a okeetee as I done for years. You are twisting words agin. See you are still stuck on look you cant see that my corns all are geneticly 100% jasper Co stock with out other localatly mixed in or the muts that are in the hobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinman
Egg it is a nice corn snake and it looks more prety than my pure okeetees . dont think that I just like okeetees in normal corns a pretty corn is a prety corn.

Nice avoidance of the post Vin. You cannot call this an Okeetee by your definition, because you don't know the background of it's family. You CAN call it an okeetee because it FOLLOWS Carl's description of one. The look of the snake was named okeetee BECAUSE of where it was found. For it to be a locality, you would have to go to that area to LOOK for this look in the snake. NOW. If we agree on those two premises (that Carl didn't describe the look until he first saw it, and that, to be a locality, one has to know that there is that look in a certain area) then it can be safely said that the term okeetee was applied to the look and not the locality. Which means that for this argument, it is not we who should be calling any snake that looks similar to Carl's description "Okeetee Phase", it is you who should call all your locality corns "Locality Okeetees". It seems very obvious to me that the locality people are trying to change the meaning of the term "Okeetee" so you should be the ones with the special terminology

EGG what avoidance, you ask what I think I told you that it is pretty Do you expect me to tell you if it is a okeetee I seen a few wild corns from NC & SC that look the same as the one in the pic.I answered the what do you think I think it is a prety corn no matter where it comes from. Carl hunted the okeetee, he made the okeetee and its corns famous. He did not call any corns from some where else okeetee. so since he is talking about the okeetee, good hope, chelase, and H. philps land. this is where he hunted. this is where he talked about the handsom,splanded corns. No where else. It is funny that all of you that want to call your muts okeetee dont have any true okeetees.It is so funny that when people dont have the real deal they want to associate themselfs with it . How many people will tell you it is just as good as the real thing. The okeetee is a real place .Carl was enchanted with the area in jasper Co. and the corns that naturaly come from that area.
the whole thing is localty. this is where carl found them. the fact that I can go either direction for a 100 miles and find a simaler look proves that since you go by look and not by localty. Then costal corns is the look that you want not okeetee. Since okeetee is a small part of a whole range that goes from NC to north FL . Since okeetee is a real place it is a localty . Since carl never described the corns for the look that you want in pattren and color .He wrote about a place where the corns have rich backround ground color and robust body and large size . all this and the fact that this is a wild population with a grater keeled scale than other populations.this a localty that was made famous Carl K.

Now to let you know about human intervention. I have two wild okeetee males and one fem. my Old charlston rd male was breed to my haphazzard rd. fem. I took the F1 fem from that breeding and bred that fem to her father and I got babies that look like to the tee just like my hapazzard rd. wild fem. and they are 2 gen. removed from her and both male and female were caught 20 miles away from eachother deep with in the boarders of jasper co.

 

[Serpwidgets]

If you read that Roger Ebert said a movie was "hysterical" what does this tell you?

A- Roger Ebert thought the movie was funny.

B- Roger Ebert has a uterus.

Pick one.

 

[E. g. guttata]

EGG what avoidance, you ask what I think I told you that it is pretty Do you expect me to tell you if it is a okeetee I seen a few wild corns from NC & SC that look the same as the one in the pic.I answered the what do you think I think it is a prety corn no matter where it comes from. Carl hunted the okeetee, he made the okeetee and its corns famous. He did not call any corns from some where else okeetee. so since he is talking about the okeetee, good hope, chelase, and H. philps land. this is where he hunted. this is where he talked about the handsom,splanded corns. No where else. It is funny that all of you that want to call your muts okeetee dont have any true okeetees.It is so funny that when people dont have the real deal they want to associate themselfs with it . How many people will tell you it is just as good as the real thing. The okeetee is a real place .Carl was enchanted with the area in jasper Co. and the corns that naturaly come from that area.
the whole thing is localty. this is where carl found them. the fact that I can go either direction for a 100 miles and find a simaler look proves that since you go by look and not by localty. Then costal corns is the look that you want not okeetee. Since okeetee is a small part of a whole range that goes from NC to north FL . Since okeetee is a real place it is a localty . Since carl never described the corns for the look that you want in pattren and color .He wrote about a place where the corns have rich backround ground color and robust body and large size . all this and the fact that this is a wild population with a grater keeled scale than other populations.this a localty that was made famous Carl K.

Now to let you know about human intervention. I have two wild okeetee males and one fem. my Old charlston rd male was breed to my haphazzard rd. fem. I took the F1 fem from that breeding and bred that fem to her father and I got babies that look like to the tee just like my hapazzard rd. wild fem. and they are 2 gen. removed from her and both male and female were caught 20 miles away from eachother deep with in the boarders of jasper co.

Carl never called ANY snakes okeetee Vinny, that is something that was applied to the LOOK of "the prettiest" snakes in the 10 sq. mile area. YOU are good at twisting words. 10 sq. miles WITHIN the okeetee land does not mean the WHOLE okeetee land. It means only that 10 sq. miles. Carl, nor Rich, have ever stated the the okeetee is only 10 sq. miles. Carl said that these corns that he noticed had a certain look within a certain 10 sq. miles. AGAIN I say again: The term okeetee was applied to the look of the snake that Carl was referring to, and then the locality people came in and said that the name was applied to the snakes because of the locality. Therefore, these "mutts", the term you are trying to degrade everyone's okeetee to, are not truly mutts, but are legitimate okeetees, because of the FIRST use of the word "okeetee", something you are hell-bent on. The locality of the okeetee is only special if and only if you know before hand what is out there and go hunting for it. That is what makes your locality corns legitimate locality okeetees, but it still does not take away from the term okeetee as being the LOOK of the corn. Carl did not know that this look was at the okeetee hunt club BEFORE he went there, therefore, he can not have been writing about how special the corns were because of where they came from. The locality was something later applied by people who already knew what LOOK was there, and wanted to reproduce it.

Rich the stock that is 1/4 a mile away from jasper breed with corns with jasper blood. I'm sure cluthes that hatch within 1/4 mile from jasper boader go both ways and clutches within a 1/4 mile in jaspre I'm sure go outside jasper and deeper in jasper. Easy rich that is the natural way the snakes breed that is nature . They are the same geen pool .

no rich even though they are the same stock you got to draw a line some where. I never said that a corn that is a 1/4 mile away is a true okeetee I said that they share the same genes that is twisting my words around. and I said the okeetee look goes from NC to north Fl. THis is why the term okeetee is invalid. the color and pattren that you call okeetee does not olny come from jasper it goes across hundreds of miles. I could see if this color and pattren only came from jasper but it streches over hundreds of miles. There fore since we are talking about the snakes that came out of jasper Co . it is a collection point . I even said that there are some places in jasper Co that I dont consider okeetee. it all depends where you are in the county.

what kinda of garbage is this rich you know as well as this I it is just a normal SC corn. As my pure okeetees born in NYC are pure okeetee corns.like I said before that someone up here did the cross you are talking about I told you that I dont call them okeetees. so now all your snakes are talahassesse corns? You know better than this. lets stop saying things that you know are wrong. I thought that we were haveing a intelligent debate?

easy rich if you cant understand this then I dont know what to tell you because now you are not makeing any sinse The nalrual stock that is around jasper is just what I said natrual stock. the fact that okeetees corns dont mate with corns from Fl. or a couples of miles north of jasper or corns from NC,Va,NJ,Kt,Del.Tenassesse,Mss,Al,and Ga south of jasper. all these states corns do not breed with okeetee corns. there fore they are not what you find in okeetee. ther do not share the same dna. there genes vary some what. and what about all thoes garbage muts in the hobby I dont remember seeing jungle corns ,gopher corns,emoryi ,ect. in the okeetee So carl talked about the special corns that came from one place . whether they came from horance philps land or good hope, chelase ,or the okeetee property. the are all okeetee corns remember that the okeetee has bought and sold land over most of the county. This is where carl made the corns from famous, thisis where his collection point was , not all over the range of costal corns.

I disreguarded this post in my last because I was trying to choose my words carefully. Here they are though. YOU CANNOT DRAW A LINE. That simple. What you are doing is taking a select few snakes from within the gene pool and making them "special" by trying to draw a line. This is impossible. ALL these snakes that have touching borders from extreme southern FL, up to the extreme northern border of "cornsnakedom" ARE in the same gene pool, no line. Trying to draw a line and say that there are only those select few in that line of the whole range are special, is not going to work. You cannot claim that they are special because of locality, since the snakes move MILES to breed and lay eggs, so any snake born within the boundries, has the potential to move out of the boundries to breed and further to lay eggs. This also works in reverse. That argument then does not hold water, because you have locale corns becoming non-locale, and non-locale corns becoming locale, depending on when you see them. You also cannot tie the "gene pool" into this. As JUST STATED, snakes move MILES to breed and lay eggs, therefore their genes move miles as well. Trying to deny those who have ancestry in the okeetee corns, simply because you found it 3 miles outside your line, WILL NOT WORK. They may very realistically be okeetee-locale corns out hunting or looking for a mate. Then they may realistically find another corn from the same locality, just as far outside the border, breed, and then lay eggs FURTHER outside the border. Same works in reverse. You cannot say that the snake you found 3 miles in you border is an okeetee, because it may be from the outside looking for a mate..... Do you see where this breaks down yet?? The gene pool that the okeetees are part of is not seperated from the gene pool of the cornsnake population as a whole. They exist in the same gene pool as those from NC, FL, GA, and NJ. This is also FURTHER supported by calculus's infinite limit, f(x)=1/x. As x approaches 0 (gets smaller), f(x) grows INFINITLY larger, and as x fretracts from 0 (gets bigger), f(x) grows INFINITLY smaller. How is this possible??? Answer: You can always divide by a number asside from 0. MATHEMATICALLY, your gene pool arguments do not hold water either. THis means that if we set x="Okeetee Land", then genetically, as you get closer to the okeetee land, you have more concentration of the "locality gene" whereas when you move away from the okeetee land, you have less concentration of the "locality gene", but the funny thing about math is that division can never give you an answer of 0, unless you are dividing 0 by some number. This gets rid of your line now Vin. What's the next problem?? We already struck out the logical problem and the mathematical problem with locality corns being special. How about we make it a physics problem. A snake travels at a speed of.......