religion and hybrids

[Lennycorn]

I knew Airenlow was going to say that

I like rump roast... so send pictures of rumps to [email protected] so that I can make my decision on who to eat first!

Bring on the dingles!

 

[diamondlil]

Yes, and a domestic dog could survive and breed in the wild as well. http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/...y-dog-population-crisis-and-humane-relocation

Are all domestic corns identical in every way to wild corn snakes of a given locality? Given that many different localities are breed together to achieve various morphs... I'd say there is some variance as breeders do not always simply breed one locality to a member of the same locality. Are different localities or rare new morphs not breed to other morphs that may have appeared in another corn snake from a completely different local? This would not happen in nature. Have hybrids already mixed or intergrades already been selected for and parentage lost in such a manner as to leave some corn snakes at least with a questionable heritage? I would say change of diet, temperament, color.... or simply breeding locals together that would never occur on their own in the wild if not introduced by man to be significant changes. I'll agree we have come much further with the dog, but what has been done with the corn snake is no small achievement either. Whether a domesticated animal or an animal that man has selectively bred for traits and whether that animal can exist on its own in nature if released.... interesting point your trying to make there as well. Many animals selectively bred by man can breed with their wild counterparts. Turkeys come to mind as one such example. Of course, some breeds bred by man can no longer reproduce naturally at all.

Did you actually read your link? It's not talking about dogs that are surviving out in the wild and filling a niche where wolves would be. It's talking about scavenging street dogs. Here's a link for you;
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...als/wild-dog,-dingo-dog-hybrids-feral-or-wild
This one has religious aspects too.........
http://creation.com/the-australian-dingo-a-wolf-in-dogs-clothing

 

[Nanci]

Bring on the dingles!

Gross ...

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Did you actually read your link? It's not talking about dogs that are surviving out in the wild and filling a niche where wolves would be. It's talking about scavenging street dogs. Here's a link for you;
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...als/wild-dog,-dingo-dog-hybrids-feral-or-wild
This one has religious aspects too.........
http://creation.com/the-australian-dingo-a-wolf-in-dogs-clothing

Excellent info Diamondlil. And yes, I do think your posts as well as mine bring credence to the fact that domesticated dogs can indeed survive without man's help. Rodents often survive in the home, off our waste, and yes... even in the field. So, all relevant information where it concerns survivability of a domesticated animal or as you linked, hybrids thereof.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Is this the way you talk to everyone, any subject you don't answer with a dissertation. How fitting is it you bring up turkeys.

I thought it was quite fitting as well... meaning the turkey reference. As for supplying a lengthy reply, I find that even with a lengthy reply it is possible for it to be greatly misunderstood and even more so with a short reply. One has to wonder though, how often is it intentional... meaning that the point is not really misunderstood... but rather ignored or sidetracked due to lack of evidence or logic to the contrary?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Is God willing to prevent hybrids, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh hybrids?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

I prefer to think if there is an omnipotent and omniscient god that he/she/it must have approved of hybrids or he/she/it would not have made species compatible. I.e. hybrids would of corn snakes would not be fertile at the very least if god did not approve. I mean, were talking about intelligent design here so it would have been easy enough to build a safeguard against this if one was omnipotent. If one was omniscient, one would also have the power to develop a biological safeguard against this... not to mention already knowing man would indeed make hybrids if this safeguard was not in place.

 

[diamondlil]

Excellent info Diamondlil. And yes, I do think your posts as well as mine bring credence to the fact that domesticated dogs can indeed survive without man's help. Rodents often survive in the home, off our waste, and yes... even in the field. So, all relevant information where it concerns survivability of a domesticated animal or as you linked, hybrids thereof.

I'd hazard that there are modern breeds of dog that would never survive without human help though, those that are very far removed from the generic, wolf/coyote/dingo body type. Brachycephalic types that keel over if over excited and cannot whelp naturally, for a start. Cats do better without us, probably because most breeds haven't been altered in ways that would affect their survival chances, but again the heavy double coat and squashed faces of modern persians would most likely be a handicap.

 

[susang]

I thought it was quite fitting as well... meaning the turkey reference. As for supplying a lengthy reply, I find that even with a lengthy reply it is possible for it to be greatly misunderstood and even more so with a short reply. One has to wonder though, how often is it intentional... meaning that the point is not really misunderstood... but rather ignored or sidetracked due to lack of evidence or logic to the contrary?

Lengthy replies are accepted and appreciated if they go somewhere, if the reader is given substantial evidence or reference to the same. When the discussion becomes circuitous and only one person is feeding the discussion it becomes boring. When something new is added the thread can again become fun and educational. Of course there are the times in a thread when one is being poked and as you say denigrated that can also be fun, as in what kind of poo will come out next. This being the only reason I find it hard to ignore you, not only are your discussions circuitous, you argue both sides as if you believe in both sides.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I'd hazard that there are modern breeds of dog that would never survive without human help though, those that are very far removed from the generic, wolf/coyote/dingo body type. Brachycephalic types that keel over if over excited and cannot whelp naturally, for a start. Cats do better without us, probably because most breeds haven't been altered in ways that would affect their survival chances, but again the heavy double coat and squashed faces of modern persians would most likely be a handicap.

Again, very valid points. My turkey post reference covers this as well as some turkeys can not breed without artificial insemination. Thus, they are incapable of sustaining themselves without mans help. If we acknowledge that we are altering species by selectively breeding them to different extents... we must acknowledge that we are altering how they might have evolved otherwise if left completely on their own. Sure, one can argue that with some species... our very existence has altered how they have evolved either through cohabitation, parasites, symbiotic relationships, etc. Where do we draw the line with how we influence a species evolution? Should we not selectively breed any animal or plant or do we claim dominion over all plants and animals and do as we see fit? Does religion play a role in how we view or make these decisions?

For me, I see no difference in the desire to breed domestic dogs or create a domestic dog breed as done by man than I do a desire to breed designer corn snakes or hybrid corn snakes.

 

[diamondlil]

Remember the line 'just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should'. I would say personally that alterations to body type that cause health problems and shorten lifespans are going too far. Many modern dog breeds are so exaggerated by modern fashions that not only could they not perform their original tasks but their health is affected. With modern breeds of fast-maturing poultry and rearing practices we are producing freakishly proportioned birds just to provide cheaper food (which is why I eat the stuff I've fished or Mick or my friends who hunt have shot as much as possible. I'd love to buy heritage breed humanely reared meat but it's hugely expensive here)
So would I personally care if someone breeds a beast corn? Nope, they are pretty, they are big and healthy, they have no known drawbacks, as long as they are labelled as what they are and not mistakenly bought by someone who actually wanted a corn snake. Turbo corns, corndurans etc don't attract or repel me. I'm keeping and breeding corns and have no room for a sideline into hybrids.

 

[dave partington]

Perhaps because the hobby is newer?
This can only be said to a degree though. Many morphs wouldn't survive, would scale-less or micro scale? Would they be more prone to diseases? You can certainly breed for larger corns or smaller corns.

If they would not survive, then why do wild corns sometimes have simple recessive color/pattern/scale-modifier genes to begin with? They must have been useful at some time or place?

 

[rich333]

I heard a thing on Coast to Coast, or whatever that overnight show is, that they weren't aliens, they were angels. What is your opinion on that, Richard?

Nanci,

Ok...I'll Bite.

Angels...biblically speaking... were/are God's "workers" The Sumarians refered

to them as the Anunnaki.

Angels are from Heaven (Nibiru ? the Elusive 10th planet)....Not Earth.

Therefore, one MUST conclude.... That if any Being...CAME to earth,

CREATED earth, Or otherwise didn't originate here....Said "Being" MUST be

Alien In Origin.

So, really it goes hand in hand .....

If GOD does exist.....

Then We WERE genetically Manipulated/Created for some Purpose.

Kinda Like Good/Evil..... You can't have one without the other.

 

[airenlow]

Here ya go, Nanci.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/anunnaki/anu_41.htm

 

[HerpsOfNM]

If they would not survive, then why do wild corns sometimes have simple recessive color/pattern/scale-modifier genes to begin with? They must have been useful at some time or place?

X2

I don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss random mutations as simply deleterious or judging recessive mutations as bad. In humans, achondroplasia is an inheritable autosomal dominant mutation of dwarfism. Albinism is another quick one to dismiss, yet many albino herps in the trade have been found as sub-adults to adults; Burmese pythons (iirc), Mohave rattlesnake, cal king, trans pecos rat snakes, etc. Some of these mutations can even be environmentally triggered: incubation temp fluxuations, humidity swings, in vitro injuries. There are a number of ways mutations, good or bad, that can arise and even be potentially inheritable.

 

[rich333]

Here ya go, Nanci.

Thanks Josh.

 

[tsst]

Is this the thread selling a bloodred BP x albino boa hybridized by an atheist that quotes the bible? How big do they get? Is there a dwarf line? I hope they're not all sold yet. Let me know thanks.

 

[Tara80]

If they would not survive, then why do wild corns sometimes have simple recessive color/pattern/scale-modifier genes to begin with? They must have been useful at some time or place?

Stargazing is a recessive gene/modifier. I'm sure that didn't help them in any way!
There are many detrimental recessive genes in all of us animals, which come out with inbreeding; along with the good cool looking ones.

 

[rich333]

In today's Paper (Dayton Daily News), there was a Story about A wooly Mammoth carcass found in russia. What's unique about this find? At the time of excavation....the temps were -7 -10 degree F. Dark Red Blood of the Mammoth flowed Freely when poked with a pick. How can this be?

 

[Nanci]

I wonder if mammoths have a component in their blood to prevent freezing, similar to frogs.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

In today's Paper (Dayton Daily News), there was a Story about A wooly Mammoth carcass found in russia. What's unique about this find? At the time of excavation....the temps were -7 -10 degree F. Dark Red Blood of the Mammoth flowed Freely when poked with a pick. How can this be?

I'd read somewhere that current assumption on that is possible antifreeze-like blood properties. Wood frogs have a possible similar mechanism that allows them to survive freezing and thawing