Reputable??

[CaptBogart]

Don't those uber cheap prices scare anyone but me? When I see reptiles priced cheap I wonder about a few things. Is the animal WC, healthy, is the breeder out of room, or time to care for them? WC animals are always cheaper or should I say usually. A breeder in over their head also offers cheap prices because their either out of room, out of time, out of food, or all of the above. Post a thread on the BOI and ask about the company and owners names there. Scumbg breeders often change their company names like underwear

They aren't that cheap, they look comparable to show prices, and they aren't the breeders, they're a pet store. It say's to email them for animals that you are looking for and aren't listed because they can probably get it from their suppliers, so I bet they're buying wholesale. Their shipping charges start at $60 too... Pet stores make most of their money on supplies and food, not animals, that just brings in the customers.

 

[tyflier]

Well, when you add it to the cart, it's still $89. :dgrin: LOL.

BUY IT!!!:dancer::crazy02::eek1:

 

[danielle]

I liked the care sheet, vet links, and forums Chris- it's always nice to see these things and definitely helps to add validity. Though not all his prices were sketchy low the ones that were happen to be animals in the trade hence my WC speculation. Thats why I suggested asking on fauna and posting the business name and owners name. Urban is a semi-newbie and WC often comes with "fun" a newbie isn't prepared for. If you have dewormer, meds for parasites, a keen eye, and patience with feeding tricks WC isn't so bad, but even then an experienced keeper can't get all of them to adjust to captivity.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

BUY IT!!!:dancer::crazy02::eek1:

I wish I could!!! :angry01:

 

[CaptBogart]

Well, when you add it to the cart, it's still $89. :dgrin: LOL.

$89.00, but shipping is $610.00.... :laugh01: Lol, now that would be funny...

 

[Floof]

Do you know how many private keepers there are in the U.S.? I don't. Do you know how many the average keeper of alligators keeps? I don't. Do you know how many the breeder produces and sells each year? I don't. Do you know to whom this breeder sells them, under what conditions, and what constraints? I don't. Do you have any right to judge this breeder without ANY of the above information? I don't...and neither do you.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you think or believe about the animals. If the breeder is producing and distributing the animals legally, there is nothing irresponsible about it. Period. Either legitimately or implied. And until you can show me where, either on their site, another site, or in real life, this breeder has proven themselves to be irresponsible as either a breeder OR a keeper, you've no right to accuse them of irresponsibility.


Who really cares what your opinion is? I'm not trying to be rude, but really, your opinion does not count when deciding if a breeder is responsible or not, unless your opinion is based ion actual experience with the breeder.

Besides that, this breeder has lots of listings on their site for everything from general care to a listing of the BEST Herp Vets in the country, listed by name, address, telephone number, city, state and specialty in reptile vetrinary medicine. That seems anything BUT "casual" to me...


You don't know any more than I do what this breeders selling habits are. You don't have a clue as to who their customers are nor what the average experience level OF those customers are.

Ultimately, neophytes that don't know what they are doing don't spend $2000 on a Super Tiger Retic, or $3500 on a Paradox Albino SUper Tiger Retic. It just doesn't happen.

The bottom line is that you took one look at a breeder's site and declared
With absolutely no basis to decalre anything of the sort. If you actually took the time to LOOK at the website, you would have found the caresheets, recommendations, vet listings, forums, and contact information, as well as the price list of what you consider the "irresponsible animals" that fairly makes most of them not "beginner pets", but investment animals.

As far as I am concerned, this hobby has enough people from OUTside of it that are too fast and too quick to judge someone as irresponsible based on absolutely no informaion or sound reasoning. We definitely don't need people INside the hobby doing the same thing...

You know, you're right. I was hasty to judge just by their availability list. It's a fair chance that my initial assumption was wrong (and I wouldn't mind finding that out).

I still stand by MY opinion that selling alligators in a pet store is sketchy no matter how high the price or great the store, but that's MY opinion. MY opinion doesn't matter to YOU (as you have made so clear), so YOU are plenty welcome to IGNORE it as you please.

It's also MY observation (which, again, you are welcome to ignore) that there are more shady "pet stores" than there are trustworthy. God forbid I be cautious.

 

[Kokopelli]

There's an albino boa on ther for $89!!!! SOMEONE go get it! I can't afford it right now!!!

You really don't want to risk it with a Boa... the prices are low and far more likely than not, that company are simply middle-men, buying from breeders and selling them on.
If they label an albino Boa so low... something's fishy with the origins... that's a price screaming "we want to get rid of it".
People with IBD awareness should avoid this like the plague IMHO.

As for the gators and stuff, I don't think it makes them irresponsible to -offer- people to buy said animals... they can't take responsibility for the consumer...
Afterall it is perfectly legal to go out and buy decorative weaponry right? like swords and stuff like that... you want to tell me that this too isn't dangerous in the wrong hands?

 

[tyflier]

You know, you're right. I was hasty to judge just by their availability list. It's a fair chance that my initial assumption was wrong (and I wouldn't mind finding that out).

I still stand by MY opinion that selling alligators in a pet store is sketchy no matter how high the price or great the store, but that's MY opinion. MY opinion doesn't matter to YOU (as you have made so clear), so YOU are plenty welcome to IGNORE it as you please.

It's also MY observation (which, again, you are welcome to ignore) that there are more shady "pet stores" than there are trustworthy. God forbid I be cautious.

It's not about being "cautious". It's about NOT being accusatory. Like I said in my last post, there are plenty of people OUTSIDE the herp community that judge, react, and have knee-jerk opinions about exotic pets. It doesn't help to have people INSIDE the hobby hurling about the same accusations.

The truth is...I don't know you well enough to have an opinion about you. I don't like seeing breeders being accused of wrongdoing when there is no wrongdoing happening. It doesn't matter who wrote that first post, I would have responded the same way. Your first post was unfair to the breeder. I pointed that out. Your next post was a list of reasons WHY the breeder deserved to be accused, and I pointed out that those reasons were not only blatantly untrue, but completely unfounded.

Your opinion may very well be that you won't shop at a place that sells large snakes or alligators. That's fine. I don't have a problem with you making that choice for yourself.

It is not OK to come online and accuse a breeder of wrongdoing or being irresponsible simply because of the animals they choose to breed or distribute. That's not OK. That hurts the hobby for no reason.

Think of it like this...Joe Schmoe Down the Road doesn't have reptile pets, doesn't particularly care for snakes or lizards, and has no interest. If you and he are talking about snakes, and you, a snake oner, tell him that it is irresponsible for breeders and pet stores to distribute these animals...what's Joe's reaction going to be? The next time there is a local buill outlawing these animals Joe Schmoe is gonna say to himself, "Well, Floof LOVES these animals, and she still thinks they are dangerous and irresponsible. If she thinks that, and she KNOWS about snakes, than they must be. I'm gonna vote to ban them."

Voila...you just helped an uninformed individual decide to ban these animals for no reason other than your own underinformed opinion.

Just because YOU aren't ready for any of those animals, and just because YOU don't feel like those animals should be bred and sold does NOT make it wrong or irresponsible to do it. That's all I'm trying to say...

 

[tyflier]

You really don't want to risk it with a Boa... the prices are low and far more likely than not, that company are simply middle-men, buying from breeders and selling them on.

That IS what they do. They are breeders AND distributors, according to their site.

If they label an albino Boa so low... something's fishy with the origins... that's a price screaming "we want to get rid of it".
People with IBD awareness should avoid this like the plague IMHO.

Agreed. But how bad could it be if you got a healthy albino boa for $100? If it's unhealthy...not that big of a deal, and NOW you have legitimate reasons to question the reponsiblity and integrity of the breeders. If I had an extra $100, I'd buy it, just to see...

As for the gators and stuff, I don't think it makes them irresponsible to -offer- people to buy said animals... they can't take responsibility for the consumer...
Afterall it is perfectly legal to go out and buy decorative weaponry right? like swords and stuff like that... you want to tell me that this too isn't dangerous in the wrong hands?

Agree 100%. :cheers:

 

[Kokopelli]

That IS what they do. They are breeders AND distributors, according to their site.


Agreed. But how bad could it be if you got a healthy albino boa for $100? If it's unhealthy...not that big of a deal

If the Boa has IBD you potentially exposed your entire collection to a retrovirus which you cannot rule out your boas from being carriers of- no test can guarantee this 100%, unless it's an autopsy.

That's a very big risk.
Once you have an IBD carrier, it is possible your whole collection was exposed and in the case of Boas you just don't have a way to check this.

 

[tyflier]

If the Boa has IBD you potentially exposed your entire collection to a retrovirus which you cannot rule out your boas from being carriers of- no test can guarantee this 100%, unless it's an autopsy.

That's a very big risk.
Once you have an IBD carrier, it is possible your whole collection was exposed and in the case of Boas you just don't have a way to check this.

True...but this is a risk regardless of the price. You *should* be practicing extremely strict quarantine procedures ANYtime you bring a new boid home, regardless of how much you paid for it, or whom you bought it from. With IBD the risk is ever-present...not just something to watch for when prices are cheap.

It is just as reasonable to assume that this albino boa is one that was brought in and returned for no reason other than a person changing their mind. Perhaps it is semi-aggressive. Perhaps it has a small kink or piece of tail-tip missing from a bad shed. Perhaps it is merely a typo, whichm, according to business law, they would be requierd to honor if you decide to make the purchase.

Anytime you purchase a boa or python from a website, you run a heavy risk of IBD infection to your entire collection. This is a real risk, regardless of where you purchase from, or how much you pay. To me, if I was buying boas from breeders, and taking that risk already...the risk of getting an albino boa for $100 is not much greater than the risk of recieving a carrier or infected snake for normal price. So in that frame of mind...what have you got to lose? :shrugs:

Realistically, I would be skeptical of buying ANY boid from ANY breeder without first viewing the snake in person, and hopefully a good portion of the breeding collection. But if I was going to take a risk on a mail order boid...it would be for $100 albino boa...

 

[Kokopelli]

True...but this is a risk regardless of the price. You *should* be practicing extremely strict quarantine procedures ANYtime you bring a new boid home, regardless of how much you paid for it, or whom you bought it from. With IBD the risk is ever-present...not just something to watch for when prices are cheap.

It is just as reasonable to assume that this albino boa is one that was brought in and returned for no reason other than a person changing their mind. Perhaps it is semi-aggressive. Perhaps it has a small kink or piece of tail-tip missing from a bad shed. Perhaps it is merely a typo, whichm, according to business law, they would be requierd to honor if you decide to make the purchase.

Anytime you purchase a boa or python from a website, you run a heavy risk of IBD infection to your entire collection. This is a real risk, regardless of where you purchase from, or how much you pay. To me, if I was buying boas from breeders, and taking that risk already...the risk of getting an albino boa for $100 is not much greater than the risk of recieving a carrier or infected snake for normal price. So in that frame of mind...what have you got to lose? :shrugs:

Realistically, I would be skeptical of buying ANY boid from ANY breeder without first viewing the snake in person, and hopefully a good portion of the breeding collection. But if I was going to take a risk on a mail order boid...it would be for $100 albino boa...

Even if you do quarentine your collection, if said boa is IBD positive... you can't prove your collection was not exposed to it, hence making any future breeding problematic... and I find it immoral not to come out and say you had a case of IBD so.. it's kind of problematic.
For people who don't wish to breed... it's potentially not a big deal... for people who invest a lot of money into breeders, this could be a terrible blow.

Reputable breeders mean that people have bought snakes from said person successfully without any issues rising.
It's not fool proof, but I think it's better than nothing.

 

[tyflier]

Even if you do quarentine your collection, if said boa is IBD positive... you can't prove your collection was not exposed to it, hence making any future breeding problematic... and I find it immoral not to come out and say you had a case of IBD so.. it's kind of problematic.
For people who don't wish to breed... it's potentially not a big deal... for people who invest a lot of money into breeders, this could be a terrible blow.

Reputable breeders mean that people have bought snakes from said person successfully without any issues rising.
It's not fool proof, but I think it's better than nothing.

You're absolutely right. I understand completely. But byuing from a "reputable breeder" doesn't really mean anything. Carriers of the disease can go years without showing signs or symptoms. So even inspecting facilities could lead you nowhere, and you could STILL end up with an infected boa.

The risk there, it is ALWAYS there, and it will NEVER go away. That's all there is to it. To make the risk larger or more looming because the boa is super cheap is inaccurate at best. There are literally TONS of legitimate reasons why a boa might be sold cheaply. Buying ANY boa is a risk. So what's the point in making a bigger deal out of it than is necessary?

Look at this way...if you take the chance, spend the $100 and get a healthy boa...was the risk worth the reward? Certainly more so than going to a "reputable breeder", lopping down $650 for the same boa, and finding out the "reputable breeder" had a friend's snake over to babysit, and it was a carrier, and his whole collection is now tainted...and so is your boa...

Ultimately, as I said...buying a boa is ALWAYS a risk. If you choose to ignore a kick-ass deal because you're afraid of it, that's perfectly legitimate. But don't minimize the risk of IBD to say it is only real if the snake is cheap. That's just untrue. No matter who you get it from or how much you pay, IBD is a very real risk, and one which every person should do everything to protect themselves against...

 

[Floof]

It's not about being "cautious". It's about NOT being accusatory. Like I said in my last post, there are plenty of people OUTSIDE the herp community that judge, react, and have knee-jerk opinions about exotic pets. It doesn't help to have people INSIDE the hobby hurling about the same accusations.

The truth is...I don't know you well enough to have an opinion about you. I don't like seeing breeders being accused of wrongdoing when there is no wrongdoing happening. It doesn't matter who wrote that first post, I would have responded the same way. Your first post was unfair to the breeder. I pointed that out. Your next post was a list of reasons WHY the breeder deserved to be accused, and I pointed out that those reasons were not only blatantly untrue, but completely unfounded.

Your opinion may very well be that you won't shop at a place that sells large snakes or alligators. That's fine. I don't have a problem with you making that choice for yourself.

It is not OK to come online and accuse a breeder of wrongdoing or being irresponsible simply because of the animals they choose to breed or distribute. That's not OK. That hurts the hobby for no reason.

Think of it like this...Joe Schmoe Down the Road doesn't have reptile pets, doesn't particularly care for snakes or lizards, and has no interest. If you and he are talking about snakes, and you, a snake oner, tell him that it is irresponsible for breeders and pet stores to distribute these animals...what's Joe's reaction going to be? The next time there is a local buill outlawing these animals Joe Schmoe is gonna say to himself, "Well, Floof LOVES these animals, and she still thinks they are dangerous and irresponsible. If she thinks that, and she KNOWS about snakes, than they must be. I'm gonna vote to ban them."

Voila...you just helped an uninformed individual decide to ban these animals for no reason other than your own underinformed opinion.

Just because YOU aren't ready for any of those animals, and just because YOU don't feel like those animals should be bred and sold does NOT make it wrong or irresponsible to do it. That's all I'm trying to say...

Yeah. Looking back, my original post was unfair. I agreed to that already. It was NOT an accusation. If you read it that way, I'm sorry, but it wasn't.. I was voicing my own caution. The second post was my reasons for said caution. If it sounded like accusing, then, again, I apologize for that... And, again, it wasn't.

As for "Joe Schmoe Down the Road," I keep my opinion to myself. If "Joe Schmoe" asks (and why would he, if he has no interest?), I'll educate him to the best of my "undereducated" ability. But I'm not stupid enough to share my complex opinion with the idiot neighbor who has little to no idea what I'm talking about through 95% of the conversation.

I feel like Alligators shouldn't be available in pet stores. I have nothing against big snakes or Iguanas being kept by responsible people who know what they're getting in to. It bothers me when I see them in pet stores, but I'm not against them. Yeah, I was unclear about that to start. But I didn't expect this to be a big argument. I still don't like alligators being available to the general public (imagine Joe Schmoe as the idiot down the road who wants to impress his buddies...), but that's my opinion and you have already said you don't give a rat's bum about my opinion.

 

[ceduke]

I remember one day in a pet store where I was working a customer came in and asked if we sold baby alligators. When I told him no he asked why not. They're illegal. Why? he asked....They're dangerous. But not then they're babies! He insisted.

Then when I patiently explained to him that babies grow up, he said "oh, but then you just let them go in a lake!" >.< That is NOT the kind of person who should be able to walk into a retail store and purchase a baby alligator.

 

[tyflier]

Yeah. Looking back, my original post was unfair. I agreed to that already. It was NOT an accusation. If you read it that way, I'm sorry, but it wasn't.. I was voicing my own caution. The second post was my reasons for said caution. If it sounded like accusing, then, again, I apologize for that... And, again, it wasn't.

As for "Joe Schmoe Down the Road," I keep my opinion to myself. If "Joe Schmoe" asks (and why would he, if he has no interest?), I'll educate him to the best of my "undereducated" ability. But I'm not stupid enough to share my complex opinion with the idiot neighbor who has little to no idea what I'm talking about through 95% of the conversation.

I feel like Alligators shouldn't be available in pet stores. I have nothing against big snakes or Iguanas being kept by responsible people who know what they're getting in to. It bothers me when I see them in pet stores, but I'm not against them. Yeah, I was unclear about that to start. But I didn't expect this to be a big argument. I still don't like alligators being available to the general public (imagine Joe Schmoe as the idiot down the road who wants to impress his buddies...), but that's my opinion and you have already said you don't give a rat's bum about my opinion.

You misunderstood me. I never said I don't care about your opinion personally, I said NOBODY cares. And it's true. The people that make the laws and regulations regarding the captive propogation of reptiles in this country don't give one wink what your opinion is. Mine either, for that matter. But when someone that is knowledgeable about snakes, as you are viewed by the people around you, comes out and calls it irresponsible for a pet store to legally sell legal pets, it's detrimental to the hobby.

The problem isn't with your caution, it's with your use of the terminology "irresposnible". Your choice to use that word to describe this breeder is uncalled for and accusatory. They are doing nothing illegal, and there is NOTHING on their website that can legitimately lead anyone to conlude that they are not responsible in their business dealings.

You can be as cautious as you like, but ultimately, you said this breeder was irreposnible for selling these animals. That is an accusation. And it is both uncalled for and unfounded. And if you wou\ldn't discuss this opinion with Joe Schmoe Down the Road, than someone should probably make you aware of the fact that Joe Schmoe has accdess to this site and what you type just as much as anyone else. Do a google search for cornsnakes and this is among the first sites to pop up. When you post your opinion in this forum you ARE talking to Joe ASchmoe Down the Road. And in this particular instance you are giving him bad information that *could*, potentially, be used against the reptile hobby. THAT is what I have a problem...

 

[tyflier]

I remember one day in a pet store where I was working a customer came in and asked if we sold baby alligators. When I told him no he asked why not. They're illegal. Why? he asked....They're dangerous. But not then they're babies! He insisted.

Then when I patiently explained to him that babies grow up, he said "oh, but then you just let them go in a lake!" >.< That is NOT the kind of person who should be able to walk into a retail store and purchase a baby alligator.

But...who is being irresponsible...the breeder/shop or the idiot customer?

I work in a pet shop too. I sell a LOT of snakes and parrots. I get a LOT of them returned to me. I do everything I can to ensure that m,y customers have all of the information they need before making a purchase. But I can't control what they follow through on.

Neither can an online breeder. As long as the animals they are offering for purchase are legal...they aren't doing ANYthing irresponsible...

 

[tyflier]

By the way, Floof...

I know of several reputable breeders and members in good standing of THIS FORUM that have in the past or currently breed and sell large snakes, venomous snakes, and incredibly dangerous animals. Everything from reticulated pythons and anacondas to cobras, diamondback rattlers, and black mambas can be purchased from members of THIS FORUM. Probably gators and crocs, too, if you look around enough.

Are they all irresponsible, too?

 

[Kokopelli]

You're absolutely right. I understand completely. But byuing from a "reputable breeder" doesn't really mean anything. Carriers of the disease can go years without showing signs or symptoms. So even inspecting facilities could lead you nowhere, and you could STILL end up with an infected boa.

The risk there, it is ALWAYS there, and it will NEVER go away. That's all there is to it. To make the risk larger or more looming because the boa is super cheap is inaccurate at best. There are literally TONS of legitimate reasons why a boa might be sold cheaply. Buying ANY boa is a risk. So what's the point in making a bigger deal out of it than is necessary?

Look at this way...if you take the chance, spend the $100 and get a healthy boa...was the risk worth the reward? Certainly more so than going to a "reputable breeder", lopping down $650 for the same boa, and finding out the "reputable breeder" had a friend's snake over to babysit, and it was a carrier, and his whole collection is now tainted...and so is your boa...

Ultimately, as I said...buying a boa is ALWAYS a risk. If you choose to ignore a kick-ass deal because you're afraid of it, that's perfectly legitimate. But don't minimize the risk of IBD to say it is only real if the snake is cheap. That's just untrue. No matter who you get it from or how much you pay, IBD is a very real risk, and one which every person should do everything to protect themselves against...

I disagree mate.

First off, prices don't drop for no reason- certainly not when major breeders, and -certainly- not distributors are involved. If the price is so low, there's a reason for it to be so. In the case of people having to move out and such, or some personal issue rose... this sometimes happens, sure- but in the case of major establishments it's simply unlikely unless there -is- something to warrant said reduction in price.
Be it IBD or any other reason, it's still a cause for concern.
The risk is always out there... the risk is always out there too when you buy a used car. The price usually reflects the condition of the product, it's history and potential. As we're talking about a snake, the things that reduce their worth are usually health issues, or a history that may have led to a poor condition.

The fact that a certain risk exists doesn't mean you can basically throw caution into the wind.

As far as I am concerned, buying from someone whose reputation hangs in the hands of his customers and up to this point(some of which have been in the business for many years, even more than a century) the general opinion of them is very positive- yes, that certainly shows that up to this point, all the animals that were sent did not display any symptoms.
To me that's a hell of a lot better than buying from a distributor at a very low price an animal which can easily be sold for more than twice that sum.

Feel free to bring in whichever animals you like, as far as I am concerned this is not just about statistics but about the responsibility I have towards my animals to bring in animals I have inspected, that I've seen and know it's parents and know the breeder as a trustworthy one.
If to you this seems inconsequential- that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

 

[Kokopelli]

By the way, Floof...

I know of several reputable breeders and members in good standing of THIS FORUM that have in the past or currently breed and sell large snakes, venomous snakes, and incredibly dangerous animals. Everything from reticulated pythons and anacondas to cobras, diamondback rattlers, and black mambas can be purchased from members of THIS FORUM. Probably gators and crocs, too, if you look around enough.

Are they all irresponsible, too?

No, no one can legally accuse them of doing something illegal. But is it moral to sell a dangerous animal to a bafoon?
They -are- allowed to keep them in their country- but aren't you actually risking the buyer, -and- his surroundings for that matter, because you just want to do what you're obligated by law and get your money?
(not talking about you per se, just explaining).
There's no black and white, shutting your eyes and saying "it's the customer's fault" while being legally acceptable, I find it immoral. You are choosing one of two extremes, the first putting all of the responsibility on the seller, the other all of it on the customer.
As far as I am concerned it should be a middle point.
A person who works with animals -should- respect both animal and potential owner to know when to stop a sale from taking place- this is not legally binding, but it is my own view and opinion.

The seller as the one who usually is more knowledgeable should make sure that he sells the animal to a person who will take good care of it. Is this fool-proof? no, but at least a few animals will be spared from getting into the wrong hands. Again, the fact that the risk exists doesn't mean it is pointless to try and prevent it from happening.
You can claim all you want that it doesn't matter but... I will have to again, disagree.