Reputable??

[tyflier]

I disagree mate.

First off, prices don't drop for no reason- certainly not when major breeders, and -certainly- not distributors are involved. If the price is so low, there's a reason for it to be so. In the case of people having to move out and such, or some personal issue rose... this sometimes happens, sure- but in the case of major establishments it's simply unlikely unless there -is- something to warrant said reduction in price.
Be it IBD or any other reason, it's still a cause for concern.

So ask. Send them an email and ask why is this boa so cheap, if it concerns you that much.

Really, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone, even a large distributor or breeder, might be selling a boa like this for really cheap. I mentioned several of them above. Could be a holdover, and his new litter dropped, so he's passing this one along. Could have been one that somebody "dropped off", which was kept and cared for, and than passed on. Could be any number of reasons why a breeder, distributor, or pet store might be willing to lose a profit in exchange for no longer paying into a specific animal. Not all of them are irresposnible, negligent, "crooked", or fatal to the animal.

So...ask...

The risk is always out there... the risk is always out there too when you buy a used car. The price usually reflects the condition of the product, it's history and potential. As we're talking about a snake, the things that reduce their worth are usually health issues, or a history that may have led to a poor condition.

The fact that a certain risk exists doesn't mean you can basically throw caution into the wind.

I never said anything about throwing caution to the wind. I said take a chance. Ask. If they stammer and yammer looking for a reason...don't buy it. If they have a legitimate reason...take a chance. The risk is no greater than making the same purchase at market value. Use your judgement.

As far as I am concerned, buying from someone whose reputation hangs in the hands of his customers and up to this point(some of which have been in the business for many years, even more than a century) the general opinion of them is very positive- yes, that certainly shows that up to this point, all the animals that were sent did not display any symptoms.
To me that's a hell of a lot better than buying from a distributor at a very low price an animal which can easily be sold for more than twice that sum.

I agree with you that reputation means a lot. But it doesn't mean you can "throw caution to the wind", to use your phrase. Just as I believe a kick-ass deal does not automatically imply an unhealthy animal, I also believe that a good reputation does not automatically imply a particularly healthy animal. Caution should ALWAYS be excercised, regardless of the price or the person from whom you are buying. ESPECIALLY when dealing with boids. This is the point I am trying to make...

Feel free to bring in whichever animals you like, as far as I am concerned this is not just about statistics but about the responsibility I have towards my animals to bring in animals I have inspected, that I've seen and know it's parents and know the breeder as a trustworthy one.
If to you this seems inconsequential- that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I never, ever, ever said that it was "inconsequential". What I said is that the risk is still there. You breeder friend that has had a solid reputation for 50+ years might have had a visitor last week that unknowingly brought over a carrier boa. Your breeder friend has known this person his whole life, and has no reason to suspect anything. He handles the boa, than handles his own. Now you're screwed.

The point is that there is ALWAYS a risk. Sure...ultra-low pricetags can be a red flag to ask questions. And absolutely a solid reputation built on years of business can mean a TON in terms of making a purchasing decision. But neither one of those things is automatic guarantee of any particular outcome you may experience. Caution should ALWAYS be exercised. That's all I'm trying to say. The risk is the same wherever you go, so be cautious, use your own judgement, and follow safe quarantine procedures.

 

[tyflier]

No, no one can legally accuse them of doing something illegal. But is it moral to sell a dangerous animal to a bafoon?
They -are- allowed to keep them in their country- but aren't you actually risking the buyer, -and- his surroundings for that matter, because you just want to do what you're obligated by law and get your money?

You can't legislate morality. If the seller is operating legally, and using integrity and good ethics in his sales, the conversation ends there. Those guidelines make him a responsible seller, no matter what an individual opinion might be of their chosen species. Morals and ethics are 2 different things. Morality has no place in the law of business...

(not talking about you per se, just explaining).

Understood

There's no black and white, shutting your eyes and saying "it's the customer's fault" while being legally acceptable, I find it immoral. You are choosing one of two extremes, the first putting all of the responsibility on the seller, the other all of it on the customer.

Immoral and unethical are two different things. No breeder is required to abide by your moral standards. They are required only to practice slid business ethics and to provide their services in accordance with the law. As long as they are doing that, there is nothing irresponsible about their actions. After that criteria is met, ALL resposnibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the consumer.

The only part of that which may not be "black and white" is that which constitutes good ethics. In this situation, the website clearly goes above and beyond to outline care requirements, guidelines and recommendations, even so far as to offer a "telephone book" of Herp Vets listed with their specialty. Clearly this is responsible ethics. Therefore, it is up to the consumer to carry these solid ethics one step further and put their own good morals into play after they purchase the animal.

As far as I am concerned it should be a middle point.
A person who works with animals -should- respect both animal and potential owner to know when to stop a sale from taking place- this is not legally binding, but it is my own view and opinion.

The seller as the one who usually is more knowledgeable should make sure that he sells the animal to a person who will take good care of it. Is this fool-proof? no, but at least a few animals will be spared from getting into the wrong hands. Again, the fact that the risk exists doesn't mean it is pointless to try and prevent it from happening.
You can claim all you want that it doesn't matter but... I will have to again, disagree.

There IS a middle point. In the United States, pet shops and people in the trade of selling pets are required to provide care sheets, a bill of sale, and proper hubandry requirements with the sale of any pet. This is required by law. This is the seller being responsible for the animals they sell. A customer cannot be "required by law" to do ANYthing before making that purchase. Therefor...how much MORE responsibility can be placed on the shoulders of the seller? They are already required to GIVE the buyer a clear and concise list of the requirements for this animal.

Should they be required to do background checks? Should they be required to follow this person home and inspect the set up and location? Should they be required to look up local, state, and munici0pality regulations to ensure this animal is legal where the buyer lives? If you ask me, I think it is ridiculous to think that a seller has ANY responsibility beyond providing the basic care requirements of the animal. Everything else is up to the buyer.

It's not MY responsibility to know what you don't know. It's ONLY my responsibility to answer your questions beyond providing the care sheet. That, IMO, is the end of the sellers' responsibility...

 

[Urban_M86]

have any of you guys bought from them yet?

 

[whippet]

i wanted to by an armadillo lizard, but they are very hard to find, and they sell them at 25$ Im a little concern about the website i haven't bought from them, I might just keep looking. specially because they said they are located outside Idaho :uhoh:

I have seen them at shows..so I would head to a show to get one. However a heads up...they don't own that picture they are using of the armadillo lizard. That is a stolen picture. So I would not trust it. Many dealers sell gridled lizards as armadillo lizards for about that price and call them armadillos. I have one myself that was sold to it's previous owner as an armadillo lizard, and since that is a stolen picture...I would not trust it.
Here is a photo of my misidentified lizard rescue.

 

[whippet]

Email I just got after asking....

Hello Tara,

Thank you for visiting our website. The albino Boas are $89. The only other additional cost would be shipping of Approx. $55
That covers the box, overnight shipping and heat packs good for up to 40 hours. Keep in mind the shipping price is approx. The confirmed price will be placed upon ordering.

PrimEval Pets Admin
Visit our website at www.primevalpets.com
"Where we treat our reptiles like family"

 

[Urban_M86]

I have seen them at shows..so I would head to a show to get one. However a heads up...they don't own that picture they are using of the armadillo lizard. That is a stolen picture. So I would not trust it. Many dealers sell gridled lizards as armadillo lizards for about that price and call them armadillos. I have one myself that was sold to it's previous owner as an armadillo lizard, and since that is a stolen picture...I would not trust it.
Here is a photo of my misidentified lizard rescue.

THX for the advice. I think ill wait for a expo





but meaby i can get a geko................ a blue one..........will see

 

[whippet]

THX for the advice. I think ill wait for a expo
but meaby i can get a geko................ a blue one..........will see

Well perhaps you should do more research. Many lizards require more care and special set-ups than snakes. Doesn't sound like you are really ready to commit yet. Get some books, do some research. Consider some easy to keep lizards like a crested gecko. Blue geckos...I guess you mean day geckos who are blue and green...they need very special conditions and are for experienced keepers. You could also mean Tokays which are easier but not easy to handle...they are mainly looking only pets. They are very common at shows but tend to be wildcaught and full of parasites.

 

[tyflier]

Tara, how do you know the image is "stolen"? I tried viewing the properties and can't.

Even if it was taken by someone else, it does not automatically mean it was stolen, unless it is your photo. In that case...I agree.

I've given permission to a few people to use my photographs on their websites and even in print for a small reimbursement. It happens all the time. That may very well be a photo purchased from a stock agency. I don't know that it is, but...it *could* be...

Please don't take me wrong. I have no affiliation with the bereder. Don't know anything about them. I just don't like to see accusations of theft and irresponsibility being flung around without good, solid reasons...

If you have a way of knowing, for certain, that they "stole" the image, by al means...please share...

 

[whippet]

Google armadillo lizard. The photo is used on dozens of websites including one that tells the story of finding the animal in the wild by a photographer. And by stolen...he may have permission or it might even be a stock photo, BUT the big problem is that it is not labeled as such. He does not Anywhere on the website give credit to the photographer or even acknowledge that the photos are not his. That makes me distrust any of the photos of the animals.

 

[Lucille]

I think researching a seller is a great idea.
I have used the BOI many times to do that. Has anyone gone there to make and Inquiry, where one can ask about a seller? Only takes a minute to post there.

I'm taken aback by some of the things said here. They might be true,might not, but then, what if this is a startup biz putting special prices on a few critters to bring in new business and get the word out?

In the time it takes to put out doubts here when the company is a total unknown, you could be putting an inquiry on the BOI and you might get a personal assessment from someone who's actually done biz.

I have no dog in this fight or no boa either, but the way to tell if someone is a witch is not to tie them to a stone, throw them in the river, and see if they sink.

 

[CaptBogart]

I have no dog in this fight or no boa either, but the way to tell if someone is a witch is not to tie them to a stone, throw them in the river, and see if they sink.

That's right, everyone knows you tie them to a stake and light them on fire! If they don't burn they're a witch...

 

[tyflier]

Google armadillo lizard. The photo is used on dozens of websites including one that tells the story of finding the animal in the wild by a photographer. And by stolen...he may have permission or it might even be a stock photo, BUT the big problem is that it is not labeled as such. He does not Anywhere on the website give credit to the photographer or even acknowledge that the photos are not his. That makes me distrust any of the photos of the animals.

You don';t have to give photographer credit when you puirchase the right to use an image either from the photographer or from a stock agency. That is the whole point of "purchasing" the rights. They are not required to give credit if it is obtained through public use rights or by purchasing the rights. That's not theft...

As well, it is HIGHLY likely that if the image is used on several websites, it is most likely being used under creative commons rights, which makes it perfectly legal for anyone, anywhere to use the image, with or without giving credit to the photographer...

Just as an FYI...

 

[Kokopelli]

most of their photos aren't theirs... as far as Boas go- the Hogg Isle there was actually posted here by someone who owns it.
The Sunglow was definitely not taken by them and so on.

At any rate, call me a sucker, I wouldn't buy an Albino for 89$

 

[Urban_M86]

I email them to ask about the Armadillo lizards they said: We do have the Cordylus cataphractus. Standard Armadillo Lizards. I would be able to get a male and female for you. $25 for the male, and $30 for the female. Your order total including shipping would be $90. All of our reptiles are shipped overnight with 40 hour heat packs included. Let us know if we can place this order for you. Thank you for visiting primevalpets.com.

Should I take the risk???????

 

[Urban_M86]

ill have to ask about thier return policy.....

 

[whippet]

You don';t have to give photographer credit when you puirchase the right to use an image either from the photographer or from a stock agency. That is the whole point of "purchasing" the rights. They are not required to give credit if it is obtained through public use rights or by purchasing the rights. That's not theft...

As well, it is HIGHLY likely that if the image is used on several websites, it is most likely being used under creative commons rights, which makes it perfectly legal for anyone, anywhere to use the image, with or without giving credit to the photographer...

Just as an FYI...

Granted...and if it were an educational website I would agree. But to sell an animal using a "stock photo" which this was not, as I said I saw the original website, but regardless...using a stock photo to sell an animal online that you may or may not have is wrong and I would never recommend someone buy from them.

 

[tyflier]

Granted...and if it were an educational website I would agree. But to sell an animal using a "stock photo" which this was not, as I said I saw the original website, but regardless...using a stock photo to sell an animal online that you may or may not have is wrong and I would never recommend someone buy from them.

But here again, you are making assumptions about the integrity and reputability of this business with no foundation.

You don't buy anything from businesses that advertise using stock photography? I guess you don't own many clothes, appliances, a vehicle, or a home, right? ALL of those businesses use stock photography, almost exclusively, in their advertisements, promotions, and websites. Using a stock photo to sell an animal online is precisely what stock photos are for.

A stock photo does NOT imply that the animals is not available...it ONLY implies that the business owner is not a good photographer. There is nothing illegal or non-reputable about it. Period. I see many, many, many websites, REPUTABLE websites, that use stock photography or images that are not of the actual snake being purchased. LOADS of sites selling animals where the photos were NOT taken by the breeder.

Look at South MountainReptiles. Everytime you click to look at a snake, you get a standard image that is NOT the animal you are purchasing. Nobody calls Don "unreputable" because he "may or not have the actual animal", do they?

The reality is simple...I am NOT giving the\is breeder my vote of confidence, nor am I saying that they ARE a reputable breeder. ALL I am saying is that all of the "red flags" and "warnings" don't really mean a damn thing. There is noth8ing illegal on the site, that we know of. There is nothing that shows a lack of honesty or integrity, that we know of. There is NOTHING on the site that is irresponsible. As far as we know or can discern from the website, this breeder is JUST as reputable and responsible as any other breeder's site that I have visited.

I know it's tough to trust "new businesses". But you shoudl not throw a new business to the dogs simply because they use stock photos, can't take a decent picture, or sell animals you don't agree with. If we're going to throw breeders under the train, so to speak...do it for a real reason...a GOOD reason, not some wrongly assumed reason that there is NO evidence of.

f it comes out that the guy stole the images, doesn't have the animals, and/or sells the "dangerous" ones illegally, so be it. But until that happens, there is aboslutely no reason to throw this business under the bus. There is no foundation for accusation until you have conrete evidence that they have done something wrong. Period. All you guys have is preconcieved ideas and assumptions that are in no way supported by actual evidence of wrongdoing.

Wait until you have evidence before you try and convict someone of wrongdoing...

 

[Kokopelli]

But here again, you are making assumptions about the integrity and reputability of this business with no foundation.

You don't buy anything from businesses that advertise using stock photography? I guess you don't own many clothes, appliances, a vehicle, or a home, right? ALL of those businesses use stock photography, almost exclusively, in their advertisements, promotions, and websites. Using a stock photo to sell an animal online is precisely what stock photos are for.

A stock photo does NOT imply that the animals is not available...it ONLY implies that the business owner is not a good photographer. There is nothing illegal or non-reputable about it. Period. I see many, many, many websites, REPUTABLE websites, that use stock photography or images that are not of the actual snake being purchased. LOADS of sites selling animals where the photos were NOT taken by the breeder.

Look at South MountainReptiles. Everytime you click to look at a snake, you get a standard image that is NOT the animal you are purchasing. Nobody calls Don "unreputable" because he "may or not have the actual animal", do they?

The reality is simple...I am NOT giving the\is breeder my vote of confidence, nor am I saying that they ARE a reputable breeder. ALL I am saying is that all of the "red flags" and "warnings" don't really mean a damn thing. There is noth8ing illegal on the site, that we know of. There is nothing that shows a lack of honesty or integrity, that we know of. There is NOTHING on the site that is irresponsible. As far as we know or can discern from the website, this breeder is JUST as reputable and responsible as any other breeder's site that I have visited.

I know it's tough to trust "new businesses". But you shoudl not throw a new business to the dogs simply because they use stock photos, can't take a decent picture, or sell animals you don't agree with. If we're going to throw breeders under the train, so to speak...do it for a real reason...a GOOD reason, not some wrongly assumed reason that there is NO evidence of.

f it comes out that the guy stole the images, doesn't have the animals, and/or sells the "dangerous" ones illegally, so be it. But until that happens, there is aboslutely no reason to throw this business under the bus. There is no foundation for accusation until you have conrete evidence that they have done something wrong. Period. All you guys have is preconcieved ideas and assumptions that are in no way supported by actual evidence of wrongdoing.

Wait until you have evidence before you try and convict someone of wrongdoing...

Tyflier, dude, everyone here understood your point- but many also find it extremely narrow minded and very focused on the legal aspect.
No one claimed this site is illegal(unless you mean the photos, which none of us can really say true or false).
There are many things that are simply wrong but still perfectly legal- that doesn't make it right, ethical or moral. You also can't state "facts" like "these things do not indicate there's a risk"- you don't know that. In your opinion it doesn't, in other people's opinion in does- let it be.
No one put anyone on trial- a person asked a question and people -answered- based on their own opinion. Thank God we all have the ability to judge right from wrong.
People cannot help but judge certain things without experiencing them- that's a fact of life. A person can experience only -so much-, and his entire life will be dictated based upon how he judged things he did not experience first hand- for instance, do you choose a profession by first trying being a lawyer, astronaut, shoe salesman and only -then- follow your heart? no- you judge and assume what is right for you based on what you see and feel- superficial though it may be.

A keeper asked a question, people answered, and I support them completely- there are several things there that emit a bad smell to the whole thing. It -may- be just an unlucky choice of the seller, using certain pictures or choosing such a price. Or it may indicate there's something a miss.

Personally I don't encourage people to "gamble" when it comes to animals, and as far as I am concerned the points I have described earlier in this thread are excellent indications as to how safe it is to buy from a seller.

Feel free to disagree but stop trying to tell everyone they are wrong- just because they think differently doesn't automatically make them wrong mate. You say "don't judge a book by it's cover"- fine, no one argues here. But you -cannot- claim that these things don't indicate something's fishy- cause you didn't check it, and even if it didn't apply to this specific case, it could apply to another.

 

[windowswisher]

I have an idea . . . what about instead of senselessly arguing, which it seems like many people like to do on this board, someone contact the owners of the website and ask for more information on the boa? Like why it's so cheap?

If they're responsible distributors then they should be more than happy to answer any questions and make clarifications, answering a bunch of this thread's questions at once.

 

[windowswisher]

Basically the OP asked if any knew whether the company was reputable . . . lots of people were eager to offer their judgments based on surface-level appearances, and some ridiculous details, but the answer is NO.

I really wish someone would buy that boa, though. I'm curious to have all the speculation put to rest . . .