Some People... (rant!)

[tyflier]

Me too! Ao after this discussion we should go have some, but really well have to decide on one or the other because I don't really like them together. I try to be moderate and limit myself to one vice at a time

Ah, you dno't know how to live!!

Come to Cali. Beers are on me. :cheers:

 

[tyflier]

And for what it is worth, I post very specific info, so scanning through is bound to cause some havoc. Especially since nutriton in the clinical sense is complex and multifaceted. It doesn't at all help that I am a stickler for accuracy and specificity. Before I had kids and decided to stay home, I was an accountant (read that as OCD, and anal retentive)....no offense to any accountants out there but being in charge of the amount of money I was in charge of had that effect on me personally.

Yea...that's why I scanned...

 

[Dinah]

Ah, you dno't know how to live!!

Come to Cali. Beers are on me. :cheers:

I have a plan to travel to every state in the country during my lifetime, so one day I might just come knocking. I have a friend that works at the Plex so that is only like a day trip to where you are.

 

[Kali]

"the problem with so many on the Standard American Diet (SAD) is that we don't eat nearly enough fresh produce, probably because it is not as tasty as meat and junk food.

Unfortunately it seems that a lot of americans believe that. (note that I say "seems" as I have had limited personal experience with you guys ) My boyfriend has worked and lived in the US for a year. I have been there with him for a few months. I'll never forget the look of astonishment on his roommates faces when we prepared a food dish with a lot of different vegetables in there. We both eat meat, but the first time we did that cooking, we had so much in there, we left the meat out, as it was enough. Every vegetable has it's taste and you don't even always need much seasoning to make it delicious.
We offered them some. They didn't even want to TASTE it !! All veggies?? Can't be good!!
And everyone he knew there during that year had their obligatory pot of vitamin pills in the house... No wonder...

That being said, I myself am not the most healthiest eater (in my opinion anyway, the roommates considered me more or less a heath freak ) I do like meat, I like deep fried food, I love white bread , I love the frozen pizza of a certain brand here and it's oh so easyly put in the oven after coming home from work. But why enjoy all that and neglecting other food that is just as delicous?
"it's either tasty or healthy", sometimes that is true. Lots of times it isn't.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Wow... this topic was BUSY last night!

I love you all!! I have a fat toosh....my husband's is hairy!!!

Oooh, there's a song I should post for you! But it'd get me in trouble with the mods. :roflmao:

 

[James673]

Wow! I leave for a couple days and miss a really interesting discussion. Is it over? After about page 14 my mind turned into a soft gooey mush, and I just skimmed the remaining pages. However, I think I have a few neurons left that I can use to debate. If anybody wants to debate factory farming (as it relates to plants) I will certainly debate it. I am also no fan of anything labeled "organic" mainly because it excludes everything GMO. If you want to debate GMOs (genetically modified organisms) I will debate that also. In regard to the original topic (vegans), I think most of points I may have made have already been made.

 

[KJUN]

I am also no fan of anything labeled "organic" mainly because it excludes everything GMO.

I despise the term as the "yuppies" use it because all of our energy-providing food is organic. If you are a member of Domain Archaea, you don't do so well digesting energy-providing non-organic molecules. As for me, my food contains C-C and and C-H bonds; so, by definition, it is all organic. Heck, many of the chemicals that those type of farmers try avoid (pesticides, etc.) are organic molecules themselves.

I hate it because they were so STUPID that they had to misuse a term, so DISHONEST that they had to try to steal a word away while giving it a new meaning with "technical" connotations already established, and so LAZY that they couldn't coin a new word for what they actually meant.

Find me an edible apple that isn't organic. I dare you!

 

[ruraldean]

Well, I've checked, and find that I did indeed die of old age whilst reading this thread. On top of that I thought a vegan was someone who'd never had sex, and finally I have to content with the twin images of YBH's fat rear end (nice) and her husband's hairy one (not so nice) simultaneously. YBH is obviously healthy because of the fat bum alone. Nothing worse than a woman with a behind like an 8 year old boy.

I tried to be a veggie once, but then went camping with some friends (this was a long time ago, hence the "friends" bit). The wafting aroma of frying bacon at 6.30 in the morning on a beautiful summer's day in the Wye Valley soon put me right.

Next...

 

[ZoologyGirl]

Did anyone see the mini series with Dr. Oz last year? He did several actual experiments just to see what would happen. The first one took several middle aged people with the usual problems of high blood pressure, overweight, high cholesterol, etc. For best effect, he had them camp out at a zoo, near the primate house, and share the same fresh, raw, vegan diet for only 12 DAYS!! Then measured all of the same stats again. ALL of the participants were MUCH closer to healthy numbers in blood pressure, blood tests, etc, than just 12 days previously. That is not to say that we MUST become raw vegans to achieve that. But OTOH, it shows that our typical SAD diet enjoyed by most as "normal", definitely needs a LOT of improvement!

I saw that, I love seeing experimenty type things like that. It was interesting, and if I remember right they had some nasty gas too lol.

 

[kathylove]

Yes, you have to be careful about too much fiber too quickly! The gas can actually be painful if you go crazy with it too fast. Add it gradually, and you will be fine.

Very few Americans get enough fiber, so almost everyone could stand to add more. Soluble fiber seems even more difficult to get than insoluble, because most grains have mostly the latter (great to cure constipation, though!). Lots of oatmeal and fruits provide the soluble fiber that is so heart friendly, and so lacking in the typical SAD diet.

I really liked the mini series with Dr. Oz. He did so many hands-on experiments and SHOWED us the results, not just discussed them from an academic journal. Much easier to remember that kind of presentation.

 

[wade]

My doctor once told me that if I wanted to loose some weight I should try a vegetarian diet. He said , you’ve never seen a fat vegetarian. I asked if that was healthy and he said it didn’t matter. Nobody can stay on that kind of diet very long.

 

[tyflier]

...I really liked the mini series with Dr. Oz. He did so many hands-on experiments and SHOWED us the results, not just discussed them from an academic journal. Much easier to remember that kind of presentation.

Where is the control in these experiements? If you take an unhealthy person, and drastically change their diet from that which made them unhealthy...you're going to see almost immediate change.

You take a fat, lazy slob that does nothing but order in pizza, and send his kid to McDonald's for lunch, and put him on a strict raw veggie diet, and you're GOING to see rapid and immediate change.

You take a skinny, sickly, and unhealthy vegan, and give them protein shakes from meat proteins, and diegestible lipids and fats from meat-based protein sources, and you are GOING to see an almost immediate improvement in their health.

Anytime you drastically change the diet of a dietetically unhealthy individual, you SHOULD see an immediate and rapid change in their health. But where is the control for this sort of "experiment"? Where is the baseline, healthy, rounded, omnivorous diet, being suddenly fed a strict raw veggie diet for comparison? I'm willing to bet that there would not be such a drastic change for the better with a control such as that. In fact, I'd also be willing to guess that in such a scenario, you would find a sudden and drastic DECREASE in the health levels of that individual, based on a sudden and drastic reduction in necessary vital nutrients.

On the surface, the presentation seems to speak volumes for the overall health benefits of a vegetarian diet. But once you get past the superficial myth that is being presented, what you REALLY find is not the benefits of a raw veggie diet, but rather the detriment of the average American diet.

It is my guess that such drastic changes in an individual's health could be recorded without the removal of meat. I'd be willing to wager that simply altering the diet to be more nutritionally ballanced and generally more healthy would create just as dramatic a change in their overall health, though granted it would likely take longer to show up in testing.

Of course, no one wantas to do THAT study, because it doesn't do anything for the argument that a veggie diet is inherantly more healthy...which as everyone here knows I disagree with entirely. THAT study would merely show that the majority of Americans are uneducated and lazy when it comes to nutrition...with or without meat...

 

[kathylove]

"...THAT study would merely show that the majority of Americans are uneducated and lazy when it comes to nutrition...with or without meat... "

Unfortunately, I would have to tend to agree with you on that!


These experiments were not meant to be scientific, published studies. They were merely short experiments meant to graphically show viewers who might relate to those in the in the show what could be accomplished by a drastic change in a short time. I don't think Dr. Oz expected most, if any, to maintain a completely raw, vegan diet for the rest of their lives. He was just trying to get them motivated to make healthful changes that would incorporate SOME of tips they had found out in that short time. He did do some follow up on them some months later. As I remember, some did keep up some of the changes, and were enjoying better health. And some were not.

These shows were meant to be inspirational and motivational, and to make viewers think about their health. But I don't think Dr. Oz expected anyone to think they are scientific, double blind, studies to be published in a peer reviewed journal. That was not the purpose. I think they did succeed in making people think - not sure how many people acted on them, though.

 

[dave partington]

What works for one mammal may not work for another.

 

[Cornsnake124]

get facts!

Why don't YOU get some facts....

my post really doesn't reply to any posts where i would need facts to reply to. Its mostly about good posts that I like, the farm thing, and you being "insulted".

Kathy, I really like the idea about crop/livestock rotation. When you think about it, it makes sense! The cows or other grazers will perfectly clear the land while also fertilizing it for the next crop rotation. It seems like a win-win to me.

That is right, robbie. That is why most small scale producers do that. We put our cows out on harvested fields. It is an economical way to keep them fed and it puts fertilizer in the fields.

Ya, but his "facts" are outdated.

How can they be outdated? Facts do not have an expiration date. And I really don't see you posting any stats or info... And by the quotations I don't think you really thought that his facts were real info in the first place..

Ah well, some people just don't get it.

Is that implying that because he is not vegan, he is a dimwit? Because that goes against your whole "lets get along" argument.

And Im proud to say I didn't get fat between 16 and 32. Im healthier for it!

Good for you. I'm happy for you. But a lot of people are not fat through that period and did not have to give up meat or it. So, your argument that being vegan helped that does not have much basis. (but i'm not sure you were implying that, so sorry if you weren't)

I hope the best for you family's farm. I think it is wonderful when a family is able to work together, I really think it can have the ability to really keep the family connected and close. I'm sure you saw in my post that we home school also. So howdy fellow homeshooler. I am in college as an education major and hope to be able to do portfolio evaluations (I am not sure if you have to do those in your state but in FL they are required) and tutoring and other homeschooling support service once I graduate. It is great meeting everyone.

Thanks!
Yep, it really helps to do the farming together. Everyone really pitches in, and we always get good food, because my grandma lives so close that after we get done working she can hurry home and fix us something good.
Never heard of portfolio evals, so they must not be required.

A few cites sprinkled in a conversation are OK. And it is OK to have debates, they are kind of fun. But unless you are in court, you do not need to cite everything; and more than that, even if one IS in court, one speaks with an eye toward persuasion, not simply beating one's opponent senseless with books. Facts are the backbone of an argument, but delivery can win you or lose you your debate.

If we were all sitting around in a living room and talking this subject out, we would use courtesy, humor, and most likely be friendly with the give and take that personal interaction can bring.

For some reason this thread escalates at times, becoming a pulsing, palpable blob of earnest debate, losing the pleasure of true persuasion. Let's pretend we were in each others living room.

I have to agree there. If we were face to face we would be courteous. but when your just talking to a username, you can get a little carried away...

I am also an LPN

I missed this post a while ago.. I happen to know that LPNs are not technically nurses. (didn't say you weren't, just not technically)
You are not a registered nurse. If you were a registered nurse, your title would be RN.

Thats alot of poop right there

Unless your joking, (which judging by the smily face i think you might be) you are the one giving a personal attack.

I love you Wade!

I agree, Wade is the nicest guy here.

You won't like wascly wade when he gets YOU with one of his jokes..

love dR. Oz

Sorry to offend anyone, but i think that doctor oz's info (usually at least) is a pile of crap. In the commercials, about every time it says "this could save your life" or something like that. Again, not saying all of his work is bad. He has done some good stuff. But you can't really trust TV doctors...

 

[Carinata]

Look its a new snakemaster24

 

[Cornsnake124]

Look its a new snakemaster24

Are you just trying to push up your post count or what?

That was a pretty useless post.............

 

[Carinata]

Nope just saying you used to be very harsh on me and now you have turned into an argumentative person just like me!

 

[LBoz]

Nope just saying you used to be very harsh on me and now you have turned into an argumentative person just like me!

David, will there EVER be a thread on this forum that you don't twist around to make it about you? Ever?

Just askin'.

 

[Carinata]

David, will there EVER be a thread on this forum that you don't twist around to make it about you? Ever?

Just askin'.

Well like with the conda thread you tried to make it about me..................I can pull direct quotes from that.