Thoughts on deciding NOT to breed....

[whippet]

I love snakes. I really do. LOVE EM!

And like many people here...one led to two, which led to 40+ as visions of breeding this and that began to happen. But I think like many others...that I became caught up in the idea. But how do I say goodbye to each sweet baby. To not know where it goes. I feel responsible for them.

There are two baby geckos in the house right now. We were supposed to sell them, well at least the second one, but frankly....how can I without knowing exactly where it would be going?

Maybe I am too sentimental...but I think breeding is something that perhaps is not for me.

Lauren and I are kinda leaning this way and we need to discuss it further...but this is me thinking out loud and asking for other's advice.

There was a time when we bought all snakes in pairs with breeding as the intention.

It takes us hours to feed and water. We are not good at changing the water as often as we should. We are not cleaning as often as we should either. It is just so much. Lauren has two jobs...I have full time work and school starting soon. And we barely have time to handle the ones we really care about. I know snakes don't need that...but I do. How would we care for dozens of babies each spring?

So what do you guys think? Why is it that people get so wrapped up in the idea of breeding?
A great example would be a bumblebee ball python. Lauren really likes them. So do I. But for some reason we thought we would breed our own. Why? THen we will have 3 snakes. The parents ...and the baby we hope will come. It would be cheaper to save up and buy one bumblebee then buy the ingredents, raise them and then HOPE for a chance at a baby in 4 years. (3 to grow up, 1 for eggs and hatching). Not to mention the cost and space involved in cageing.

Are snakes about breeding to you or just pets or is it both?

 

[Carinata]

Tara that is a very good question and I am very glad to someone actually thinking before breeding, kudos on that. My opinion on breeding varys I think for example I am pair Doc (Granite) to Regina (Anery) this season. I know someone who knows who they are will be getting 1.1 of them. I know they are a steller member and deserve the snakes. Now I think when breeding Boas, pythons (Excluding Ball pythons and the genus antaresia) there needs to be MUCH more thought. When you sell a snake always think the person what they are going to house it in, what they are going to feed it, what their palns for it are, and Etc. I think you and Lauren care about animals so much that you would make wonderful breeders! Just make sure you are selling your snake to a Nanci not a Retarted Geese

~David D.

 

[Roy Munson]

There's nothing wrong with being a collector, and not a breeder. Say you limit yourself to 2 clutches. That could still amount to 30-60 new mouths to feed! I don't find neonates to be easier than adults to care for. In some ways they can be more difficult. If your time is already limited, doubling (or tripling, quadrupling, etc.) your collection in a few months is probably the last thing you want to do. Still, breeding is fun. You don't have to breed every breedable animal. Do a clutch or two and then assess your ability to meet the demands. And believe me, being over-burdened is a great remedy against sentimentality...

 

[Nanci]

I'm not sure what I am going to do. First of all, I want to start with just one clutch. Out of that clutch, I hope to have some keepers of morphs I do not have. Then I hope all of my friends here who said they wanted a baby really DO want a baby, and I can get them out of here before they are all named and I am all attached!!! I'm pretty proud that I forced myself to rehome two snakes this year. One of which was my third snake ever!!

 

[tyflier]

I bought a lot of snakes specifically for breeding projects. As it happened, the snakes became a chore, more than a pleasure. I didn't get into this hobby to make money, I did it because I love the animals. So for me, that meant bringing my collection back down to a size where I actually enjoy the time I spend caring for them, rather than dreading feeding/cleaning day as a chore.

That doesn't mean I won't occasionally breed a clutch or three. Breeding is fun. I still have designs and ideas and goals to accopmplish in that endeavor. But for me, I made a conscious decision to avoid breeding for moeny, and will only breed snakes that I find fascinating, such as my suspected anerythristic Western Longnose, and my suspected hypo Desert Rosy boa. For me, these breedings are more about proving the potential genetics than actually breeding the animals. I would LOVE to work Panamint Rattlers one day, and produce some distinctive looks I have found around here as "localities". But again...that's because these particular animals fascinate me, not because I hope to make money from them...

I don't know if that helps you at all, but...it's my thoughts on the whole breeding vs. collecting idea...

 

[*salAMANDA88*]

I am very..very attached to my snakes..and as much as I like the idea and will be breeding..I also have a hard time saying goodbye.
I have a Male MBK who has some yellow spots..not much..but he is not jet black like his girl..anyway. I had a chance to get a baby BLACK MBK from my friend this last spring..so I could get BLACK-BLACK MBK's..But "cooper" is such a lovey little guy and he is such a sweetie..I couldn't even think about giving him up..so I may and may not breed MBK's..BUT my other snakie babies I hope will be going to people that I will beable to have contact with...maybe here..or just over e-mail..I can say that for sure..there will have to bee groups that breed every other year..untill I have the means to house all babies..i.e. I need more rack built..haha..BUT I have no life.. Just work and School..and my animals..and they make me happy. I have been able to keep a pair of non-eaters alive for a while..(I hope they figure it out on their own soon)..but that makes me feel a bit better about bringing new life to this planet.
I will hopefully also get my frogs to breed..and I don't even care if I have to keep them all..I will turn the shower into a HUGE VIV!..HAHAHA..naw..Those babies will be going to friends only..LOL
EVERY snake, EVERY animal that I own is a PET to me..just some will get to spread their seed..and some will not..But I am very aware of getting over my head..I'd say right now I'm still touching bottom.
Great topic!! and thanks for bringing it up!..



~~'Mnada

 

[danielle]

I know what you guys mean spring and summer are hectic for me with all the geckos hatching, setting up cages, and then posting them for sale, filling orders.......the busy season never stops,lol As far as "knowing" they are going to good homes- you never will for sure, but parting gets easier the more you do it I promise. My corns I hve no breeding intentions more collecting for now, my chahouas and cresteds are already paired up for next season, and in the future I would love to get my male hog a female.

Sell what you don't enjoy and then breed what means most to you small scale. Being a hobbiest who breeds is different than being a full time breeder you don't have to go crazy

 

[ZoologyGirl]

Are snakes about breeding to you or just pets or is it both?

For me it is both. I can't wait to start breeding, playing with genetics, etc... But the main reason I get them is to enjoy them as pets. I guess you have to weight the pro's and con's and see what works for you.

 

[whippet]

I bought a lot of snakes specifically for breeding projects. As it happened, the snakes became a chore, more than a pleasure. I didn't get into this hobby to make money, I did it because I love the animals. So for me, that meant bringing my collection back down to a size where I actually enjoy the time I spend caring for them, rather than dreading feeding/cleaning day as a chore.

This is exactly where we have gotten too. I think we need to par down the animals we just bought as breeders and get down to the pets we love. To have a resonable postage stamp herp collection. IT has become a burden somethings to feed these days. Tonight while Lauren was at work I fed all 42 snakes, some of the frogs and lizards and watered everyone. it took well over an hour. I had some moments of joy... (the pied BP ate her 2nd F/T but off the tongs for the first time and the pastel BP had his first F/T ever off the tongs as well) but most of them were just feed and water and move on...which makes me very sad. I used to LOVE feeding my beautiful guys. I guess I am to the point where we need to think about getting down to the core of our love.
It's so easy to get caught up in the genetics. It was never something we wanted to do for money....but as Snakemaster mentioned...he has a home for 1.1 of a clutch that will be a good home. What happens to the other 20 baby snakes? I am just not up to it. I doubt at this point I will ever breed. *shrugs*

 

[tyflier]

This is exactly where we have gotten too. I think we need to par down the animals we just bought as breeders and get down to the pets we love. To have a resonable postage stamp herp collection. IT has become a burden somethings to feed these days. Tonight while Lauren was at work I fed all 42 snakes, some of the frogs and lizards and watered everyone. it took well over an hour. I had some moments of joy... (the pied BP ate her 2nd F/T but off the tongs for the first time and the pastel BP had his first F/T ever off the tongs as well) but most of them were just feed and water and move on...which makes me very sad. I used to LOVE feeding my beautiful guys. I guess I am to the point where we need to think about getting down to the core of our love.
It's so easy to get caught up in the genetics. It was never something we wanted to do for money....but as Snakemaster mentioned...he has a home for 1.1 of a clutch that will be a good home. What happens to the other 20 baby snakes? I am just not up to it. I doubt at this point I will ever breed. *shrugs*

I produced close to 100 babies this year. Hypos het lav. Hypo Lavs, ghosts, ghost motley, anery motley...bunches of babies. By the time I got them all feeding and shed properly, I was so fed up with them that I GAVE all of them to a friend of mine, and simply told him to sell them at a show, and give me what he thought they were worth. I put a couple bucks in my pocket, but it was so much frustration that it was not remotely worth the effort.

Next year, I may have 1 or 2 clutches but...I really doubt it. I need to get back to my love of the hobby, and get away from the frustrations of the business...

 

[whippet]

I need to get back to my love of the hobby, and get away from the frustrations of the business...

yes....that is it exactly. And it's not even a business yet!

 

[wstphal]

Are snakes about breeding to you or just pets or is it both?

Well, mine are 75-90% pets. I have plans to breed at most one pair a year and not before 2011. I figure the worst is I get stuck with 20 babies or so a year. I can handle feeding 20 for a few months. And hopefully since I don't need to make money, or even make back my costs, I can sell 18-19 of each clutch to nice folks here or on Fauna Classifieds. I am reasonably OK with that. Snakes don't need cuddling & loving like cats & dogs do, so as long as they go to someone who provides warmth, safety & proper feeding, it's a decent snake home. As long as I don't name the little hatelings, I think I can let go of them.

I bred fancy mice once upon a time & was fine with selling my surplus to a local independent pet store that catered to the reptile trade. I ~knew~ they were going for feeders. But in the wild most mice get eaten too, so I could go down to the pet store with a big box o' mice.

It's fine, though, for your snakes to be 100% pets. Or 99% pets if you breed a clutch every 2 or 3 years if that seems manageable.

This is supposed to be FUN. If the fun part is handling your beautiful snakes, then don't breed, just enjoy them that way. For me, I want to try very small scale breeding because I love, love, love the gray ones and I don't see so many beautiful gray cornsnakes compared to other morphs, so I want to have a try at breeding. I'm OK with deciding after the first couple years that it's just too d*&n much work and not breeding any more.

So do what makes you & Lauren happy. Be open to changing the plans to pursue that happiness, whether that's upsizing the collection, downsizing the collection, starting breeding, or stopping breeding.

 

[Hypancistrus]

I am so busy these days I feel like I barely get a chance to rest. And at this point, we have so many it really has become one more chore I have to do. It's not enjoyable anymore, and I hate that!

I think it's time for us to scale back to be collectors of exceptional snakes. I am not convinced at this point that breeding is for me.

Tara and I are working on a list of snakes we can part with... look for it to be posted soon. My stipulation is that they go to folks who I KNOW will take damn good care of them.

That's you folks.

 

[Michael823]

Thank god for this discussion. I feel good knowing that I'm not the only one who finds cleaning/feeding overwhelming, because I truly do love my snakes, but like Tyflier I have found that it is becoming more of a chore. I once loved feeding my snakes, and I would stand near them in awe as I watched them engulf their meals. Now I feel like it's so much work at times, and I feel badly that I don't provide my snakes with the same love and enthusiasm that I once did. Perhaps the snakes don't care for my meaningless emotions, but like Tara I do care, and I also feel like breeding was such a dream, but now the prospect seems much more difficult.

Could I rehome all of the offspring to good homes? Would the joy of hatching babies wear out, and eventually become too much?

I love the conversation and answers, and I thank you CS family for sharing in my exact feelings.

 

[whippet]

Lauren and I have come up with a list of snakes we can part with. They are listed for sale in the insider's forum. I think this will be a lot better for us and for the snakes.

It's the right thing to do... even if it is hard.

 

[Carinata]

Well, mine are 75-90% pets. I have plans to breed at most one pair a year and not before 2011. I figure the worst is I get stuck with 20 babies or so a year. I can handle feeding 20 for a few months. And hopefully since I don't need to make money, or even make back my costs, I can sell 18-19 of each clutch to nice folks here or on Fauna Classifieds. I am reasonably OK with that. Snakes don't need cuddling & loving like cats & dogs do, so as long as they go to someone who provides warmth, safety & proper feeding, it's a decent snake home. As long as I don't name the little hatelings, I think I can let go of them.

I bred fancy mice once upon a time & was fine with selling my surplus to a local independent pet store that catered to the reptile trade. I ~knew~ they were going for feeders. But in the wild most mice get eaten too, so I could go down to the pet store with a big box o' mice.

It's fine, though, for your snakes to be 100% pets. Or 99% pets if you breed a clutch every 2 or 3 years if that seems manageable.

This is supposed to be FUN. If the fun part is handling your beautiful snakes, then don't breed, just enjoy them that way. For me, I want to try very small scale breeding because I love, love, love the gray ones and I don't see so many beautiful gray cornsnakes compared to other morphs, so I want to have a try at breeding. I'm OK with deciding after the first couple years that it's just too d*&n much work and not breeding any more.

So do what makes you & Lauren happy. Be open to changing the plans to pursue that happiness, whether that's upsizing the collection, downsizing the collection, starting breeding, or stopping breeding.

Are you planning to breed the pair you are getting from me this season the anery Het Bloods?

 

[desertanimal]

Late reply, but my two cents.

I love the breeding. I would be bored without it. But I will breed for two clutches max each year because more babies than that would be too much. Those little things make such a mess of everything in their deli cups!

And I keep my collection under 10 (right now, 5 adults and a couple hatchlings which will either replace some of those adults when they grow up or get sold when they grow up) so it's not a burden even when I have the babies too.

 

[Kokopelli]

I think you kind of put things in black or white... you either breed or you don't, at least initially...

I was lucky enough to learn this lesson before I put on shoes that were too big for me. I won't lie, I bought and sold several snakes throughout the past three years... mostly because I was uninformed when I got them(finding out the L.Mexicana I had were actually hybrids) or financial problems that suddenly rose...

But as some of you noticed I got into Boas rather seriously, and have 7 Boas right now.
The breeder from whom I got them and I are now good friends and I help him out in his facility... and I now know what "overwhelming" means... as I had to help him with roughly 100+ babies and an existing collection... he too finds it too much.

Not everyone was born to become a breeder, breeding snakes is easy and anyone can do it, but it takes more than that to be a full-scale breeder. Not everyone has the required patience, or time. So I really do respect breeders.

I don't think breeding must be part of the curriculum for large collection owners... if you want to breed a pair, go on a head... if you want to wait or not to it completely, that's perfectly fine.

Specifically here in Israel the only way for us to have access to higher end morphs is for someone to take the mantle and breed them... else the only access will be to low end animals that are sometimes ill/have mites etc...

So I have 4 females at the moment... does it mean I will breed them all every season? I seriously doubt that... unless I find a person to whom I am guaranteed to sell all or at least most of the younglings to be exported/sold etc... But I doubt it, I think that I will limit myself severely... and currently, though there is a slim chance I will be bringing in more Boas(for reasons I'd rather not share yet) I actually am hoping that I won't need to have any more.

At this point I enjoy the collection I have, which consists of 1.2 corns, 3.4 Boas and 1.0 goofy LTR.
I find it quite enough...
The best recipe is to add a little at a time... and know your limit. I have been burned out before but now I am thrilled with what I do.

Also, for those of you who feel bad... don't. Parents sometimes feel that children are a chore... and it's true- as it becomes more and more of a routine, cleaning poop and changing water becomes an annoying chore... especially when you do it 5, 10, 20, 40 times every week. Don't feel guilty, as long as you do it, you're fine.

 

[Nanci]

OT, but since Tara mentioned being pressed for time...

You know what has made a big difference for me, with my meager collection of 25, to help not feel overwhelmed on feeding day? Recording weights, seeing that (breeding size adult) snakes are growing when being fed at "only" a 10 or 14 day interval. I now have four groups, 5 days, 10 days, 7 days, and 14 days. I used to have only 5 and 7 days. Now on Saturday or Sunday, instead of feeding ALL the adults, I'm just doing the young adults that are still growing up to breeding size, and the either HUGE or PITA feeders- a relatively small group. Then I do the babies (they eat fast and without fail) every five days, and they're fun to feed, and usually the 10 days the day after, every other time, unless I am full of energy and time, in which case I do them all at once! Now I enjoy feeding days again.

 

[Calift]

I don't think you'll have trouble finding any a good home....it sensible to start now (before the burn out), when you have the time/patience to "hand pick" a new place for them.


(now I think I need to buy a membership just so I can see what snakes they are! LOL you have a gorgeous collection!)