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What to do when a young/small girl double clutches

K

kc261

New member
I have a female that was bred for the first time this year (first snake breeding for me!). I'm afraid she may be going to double clutch. I know she either will or won't and I can't control that. My reason for posting is mostly to get input on how best to care for her to help her recover and if there is anything in particular I should look out for.

The basics: She was 330g when first paired. She laid on 4/22. The eggs weighed 133 grams (about 13 of them, too clumped up to be sure), and her post-laying weight was 248g. I've been feeding her consistently, but slightly smaller meals less often than I might have otherwise, because I read that females are more likely to double clutch if they are feed a lot after laying, and I was trying to avoid that. As of about a week ago, she was up to 285g.

She shed roughly a week ago. For the past several days, she's been quite restless, and increasingly so. I've checked her temps and everything else I could think of, and don't see any thing that would be causing it. I fed her on 6/9, and when she didn't even seem to pause to digest, but just kept roaming her enclosure, I thought maybe she just wants more food to regain the weight a little quicker. So I fed her again on 6/13 (last night), a little bit bigger meal this time. Today she has still been just as restless.

I can't feel eggs inside her, but then I never was able to feel them before her first clutch, either. She does have that slightly prominent spine over a rounded belly look that she had shortly before laying the first time. But, the spine hadn't totally rounded out again yet, and the belly might be related to 2 meals so close together. It wasn't until today that I thought maybe she was going to double clutch, so I wasn't really looking for that.

I decided to go ahead and prepare the lay box for her again, and put it in there about an hour ago. She has been in & out of it a couple times, but the frantic restlessness seems to have gone, at least temporarily. I haven't taken out the big water bowl yet, but will do so later this evening.

So, opinions? Does it seem likely that she is going to double clutch? What things should I be doing? I'm a little worried about how much a second clutch will take out of her...
 
She'll most likely be just fine. I had a young female, 250grams , lay 13 perfect eggs.

What's more important than overall size is the physical condition of the animal. If she has good muscle tone.... Shouldn't be an issue.

Just give her some space... IE. Don't be looking in on her every 2 minutes. That will stress her more than having to pass a 2nd clutch.
Assuming she's gonna double clutch.
Best of luck !
 
I "look in on her frequently", but that consists of glancing at her enclosure from where I'm sitting at my desk. Since she's lived there nearly her entire life, I don't think it stresses her at all. It was hard not to peek in the lay box constantly when she was due to lay the first time, but I limited myself to twice a day... once/day just peeking by leaning over her enclosure to get a better view than I have from in my chair, and once/day actually opening it up to really be able to see everything. I guess I'll go back to that routine.

I think her muscle tone is pretty good, although I don't have tons of adult corns to compare her to. She didn't have any issues with the first clutch, so that's a good sign. It's comforting to know that sometimes even some quite small females do ok with having a clutch. I'm kinda of stressed with the idea of her laying a clutch when she isn't even at 300g right now.

Thanks for the reply!
 
Corn snakes in the wild lay clutches at younger ages and smaller sizes than what we deem acceptable. I wouldn't intentionally breed a snake that was too small, but since she was above the recommended weight for her first clutch, I think she will do fine if she lays a second. It sounds like you're doing everything right.
 
She should be fine. It does sound like she might double clutch. This usually happens right around the time the first clutch pips. You don't need to look in the lay box if she is in or out, or even if her head is peeking out. She will disappear into it, and clear out a space at the bottom, and lay there unmoving for a day or two before laying- that's when you know she's serious. I use a 9" deli with a 3" hole cut in the center of the lid. That way I can lift the whole thing out and check on progress without opening the lid and disturbing the mom.

Second clutches are often smaller and less or not fertile unless you rebreed the snake after the post-lay shed.
 
Well, after about 2 or maybe 3 trips in & out of the lay box more or less when I first put it in, she has settled in there and I haven't seen her since. A really dramatic change from the snake that wouldn't sit still for the past several days before that. I'll take a closer look tonight and see what I see. The container I'm using is not see though (something I'll probably remedy next time...) so other than knowing she's in there I can't tell anything without getting right over her & possibly disturbing her, which is why I strictly limit myself to the 2x/day routine I mentioned above.

One thing that makes me lean towards her not getting ready to double clutch is that she ate 2 meals in the past week. Aren't they supposed to refuse food when they are close to laying? Or is it just recommended to not feed them so there is less stuff in the way when laying time comes? The restlessness followed by settling into the lay box sure sounds like how she behaved just before she laid the first clutch though. I feel bad...I suspect part of the almost frantic quality to her explorations was her instincts telling her that she needed to find a good place...and there just wasn't one available until I finally got a clue.
 
Well, I just peeked, and there's white things in there! I think at least 6. I'm going to leave her alone over night to be sure she's done, and I'll update tomorrow.

Poor thing. No wonder she was SO frantic. I feel so bad for not figuring it out sooner. :(
 
Update:

She laid 9 eggs. I'm pretty sure she was done when I peeked last night, so that means less than 24 hrs after I put in the lay box. So much for signs like refusing food & settling in to the lay box (which admittedly wasn't available to her, but at that point wouldn't she have settled into a hide or a corner or something?).

8 look good, one is tiny and highly questionable and didn't stick in the clump, but I candled it and I could see what I believe is a small red spot with a vein coming out of it. That one weighs only 4 grams. Total weight of 70g for all 9 eggs.

Her post lay weight is 261g. So that's actually higher than after the first clutch. That makes me much less concerned than I was. I palpated her as best as I could (she was squirmy and in a bit of a mood when I took her off the eggs) and didn't feel anything and also she just looks skinny now, so pretty confident that she got them all out no problem. Now she can have a well deserved rest.

Here are some pics of the new clutch, and also of the happy couple, cuz I don't think I ever posted any. I didn't think to upload pics of the original clutch, so you all don't get to see that. I will say those eggs were prettier (less splotchy) than this clutch.

20140616_2ndClutch3.jpg

20140616_2ndClutch1.jpg

20140318_Mating.jpg

20140314_Tails.jpg
 
So... it's been a week and that little egg hasn't rotted yet. How quickly do they usually start to mold or show other obvious signs of going bad if they aren't good? I still can't see obvious veins in it when I candle it, but there is one little area where it seems like maybe something is going on. It doesn't look at white as the rest of the eggs, but the shell feels about the same. Slugs usually feel different, right?

I'm getting anxious about the first clutch. Not that I think anything is wrong, but just impatient for them to hatch! 61 days and counting... I expect they may still be a while yet, because I decided to incubate them a little on the cool side (80/81) due to the fact that the a/c in this house really sucks and I was afraid of them getting cooked if we got a heat wave. I don't have one of those nifty incubators like Nanci that both heats & cools... Any guesses how long it'll take?
 
My eggs, in the range of 82-83 are at day 60- they might be softening a little. or maybe I'm just getting impatient!

Your clutch looks nice. The lone egg looks sluggy- but you never know. I have a few infertile eggs in a clutch that is at 54 days; I don't think they started to look bad till a couple weeks ago. Now they are completely molded and collapsed to nothing. Once they go, they go fast. The good eggs, which are attached, are unaffected.
 
I kind of think the eggs from the first clutch are feeling like the shell is thinner... but I'm really not sure it isn't just in my head/wishful thinking.

When I checked them, one of the eggs fell apart from the rest. Of course, it didn't really fall anywhere cuz the whole thing is cradled in the egg box...but I wondered if that meant anything? Why would an egg that had been securely stuck to the rest of the clutch separate now at day 63?
 
I've got pippers! 2 have pipped so far. When I first peeked, there was one little nose sticking out, but of course it disappeared instantly. I'll start a new thread and post pics when I've got something worth posting.

So... apparently day 64 is about right when incubating at about 80/81. At least this time around. And I wasn't imagining the shell feeling thinner. Curiously, the eggs didn't dent at all. Aren't they supposed to? Or have I gotten that confused with BP eggs? (I know BP eggs usually dent before hatching.)
 
Congrats on the pippies! I thought the eggs were supposed to dent in too and a few of my clutch did within a few days of hatching but most did not and the ones that did dent were some of the later ones to hatch.
 
Sometimes they dent, and sometimes they don't. I _think_ they always thin, but you have to develop the touch to feel it.
 
OK. I'm going crazy! I've been so good and not disturbed the momma too much when she was due to lay and not gone crazy during over 2 months of waiting for the eggs to hatch.... but now I've got pippers and I am just about to go berserk!

I can't help checking for progress...and I see none, which is frustrating to say the least! I also haven't seen a nose since that first moment. Don't they need to stick their noses out to breathe?

So, I decided at least for the moment I'm putting the egg box on my desk so I can see without having to touch the box and disturb them by wiggling it as I pick them up. My husband teasingly asks how we are supposed to keep them warm while we hover over them (and thus have the egg box out of the incubator)? Probably a good thing my first clutch was corns and not BPs where I'd be more worried about room temp being a problem...

I want babies! I at least want a nose to stick out so I can take a pic!
 
kc261 said:
OK. I'm going crazy! I've been so good and not disturbed the momma too much when she was due to lay and not gone crazy during over 2 months of waiting for the eggs to hatch.... but now I've got pippers and I am just about to go berserk!

I can't help checking for progress...and I see none, which is frustrating to say the least! I also haven't seen a nose since that first moment. Don't they need to stick their noses out to breathe?

So, I decided at least for the moment I'm putting the egg box on my desk so I can see without having to touch the box and disturb them by wiggling it as I pick them up. My husband teasingly asks how we are supposed to keep them warm while we hover over them (and thus have the egg box out of the incubator)? Probably a good thing my first clutch was corns and not BPs where I'd be more worried about room temp being a problem...

I want babies! I at least want a nose to stick out so I can take a pic!
Click to expand...

Ha! I know the feeling!
It's frustrating when you go to take a pic aand the retreat back in the egg. LOL
 
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