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Homo Motley With Belly Checkers??? HOW??

TandJ said:
Homo or not homo, if there is a chance of some doubt by a customer, its not worth any value to me to argue with them about belly checks or not.. I can't ever see myself willing to put my neck on the line regardless of what the homozygous genetics should predict.. My butt is worth more than the mud my name could get dragged through, and besides, I know people well enough, that they are likely to forget about what I may have been up front about earlier on...

Regards.. Tim of T and J
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Tim,

I can very much appreciate and understand that. I decided to not sell the two in the clutch with the belly checks, because I don't know. I'm not sure what I am going to do with them at all.

This whole clutch has been a pain in the keester and I haven't decided on anything.

Thanks a bunch for the input!

Wayne
 
Tara80 said:
CYA can be done in a straight up and honest fashion though - meaning displaying the parentage and explaining the results from the breeding. Personally, all I would do is just mark them as a 'poor quality motley' (unless there is a chance of retained sperm) and sell them for extremely low prices.
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Who is to say that they are quality or poor motleys? That would require that you judge them against some standard, which as far as I know, doesn't necessarily exist. It may in one form of another, but I think that the "standard" of one breeder may be different than another. Who is to say who is right or wrong?

I believe Rich said it best.
Rich Z said:
Well, the problem appears to be that it is us HUMANS that are trying to make standards and definitions that we expect nature to comply with. Basically trying to force a digital template on an analog world for OUR own convenience and compulsion to label and cubbyhole things. Unfortunately, nature really doesn't give a flip about what we want and will invariably *break* any rules we try to make her comply with.
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I really don't know what to do with all of this.

Wayne
 
FireDrake said:
Wayne, I didnt hatch that snake, Kat from Corn Quest did, and I bred her to a bloodred het amel and charcoal last year.

I got normals, one amel and four ultramels and some of them had decreased belly checkers, so maybe there is some strange belly checker gene in her. I only have photos of two hatchling bellies, both ultramels.... but I remember others having strange bellies as well, but none looked even remotely like motlies. Also, two DIE babies had very odd stripe marking and as far as I know neither parent had any striping in their backgrounds

Sarah
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Yep, I knew about Kat. I have actually conversed with her about this subject and some of the other stuff that appeared in the clutch. She has helped me out a bunch!

I apologize for messing up with what you paired her with last year. I don't know where I came up with that the Bloodred male was homo Motley. My bad!

Regardless, this is a very interesting add to the conversation.

Wayne
 
medusacoils said:
Who is to say that they are quality or poor motleys? That would require that you judge them against some standard, which as far as I know, doesn't necessarily exist. It may in one form of another, but I think that the "standard" of one breeder may be different than another. Who is to say who is right or wrong?

Wayne
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I do agree with you Wayne in the fact that they may very well NOT be poor quality at all but may be something genetically that we do not yet understand. I am just looking at it from our humanly defined 'standard' of what is acceptable for a motley. They could very well be perfectly colored, healthy and eat like a horse! Where's the line in the sand?
 
I guess by that standard, the tessera I hatched this season with the clear belly hould just go in the freezer, since he doesn't comply with our predefined definition of the tessera morph? I think not.

Look at bloodreds! They run the gamut from dark cherry bloods to snakes that essentially look like a redder normal with a clear belly...:shrugs:
 
TandJ said:
Its always wise to err on the side of the customer.. I would rather give it away than have it bite me in the ass, regardless of what the known genetics the parents carried.. Its called CYA.. Thats not being stupid in business, thats being intelligent and being there for your customer rather than being there for your wallet. Of course I know I would be called out on a suspicious looking animal right off the bat, so I can't even be bothered to play that game...
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medusacoils said:
I agree!! CYA is a "motto" of mine. Really!!

The question is; Would I errr on the side of caution and call the animal a het, when in all likely its a homo? ~OR~ Would I errr on the side of caution and be up front with any potential customers about the belly checks?

I think the latter is the better choice, but that's just me. :shrugs:

I don't think there is a wrong answer. Either would work.

Wayne
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Exactly Wayne, both those choices leave you open for being dishonest. So each one of these have go to thier new home with the whole story.
 
I believe I have a few sunkissed motleys from this year with clear no checkers....I'll go check and report back.
 
Exactly Wayne, both those choices leave you open for being dishonest. So each one of these have go to thier new home with the whole story.
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Are you seriously calling me dishonest Carol? Seriously?
 
Might be that I read the post wrong... If so I apologize, if I didn't misread, all be it, I understand where I stand..

There are times when this hobby becomes very frustrating to me, and seeing some recent threads posted, this one included, makes me wonder why I bother doing this anymore.. I might not be old school like some members, but I think I have been around long enough to take personal notes and compare things and remember what others have been slammed and chastised for in the past because of this and that.. The hobby remains fun, just slowly turning into a reclusive breeder who wants to remain as honest as he can..
 
TandJ said:
Might be that I read the post wrong... If so I apologize, if I didn't misread, all be it, I understand where I stand..

There are times when this hobby becomes very frustrating to me, and seeing some recent threads posted, this one included, makes me wonder why I bother doing this anymore.. I might not be old school like some members, but I think I have been around long enough to take personal notes and compare things and remember what others have been slammed and chastised for in the past because of this and that.. The hobby remains fun, just slowly turning into a reclusive breeder who wants to remain as honest as he can..
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I don't slight you for feeling this way. I'm just wondering what is so wrong with this thread? I can understand what your saying about so many other ones, but not this one. I think it's been one of the more civilized discussions on this forum.

I truly feel that threads like this one help keep people honest. Honest because it brings "things" to the forefront for discussion. To help people learn by reading opinions and make decisions for them selves. Is it perfect? NO! Not in the slightest, but it's better then remaining ignorant to the possibilities.

I would rather see a small civilized debate over belly checks on a Motley corn snake, then a one sided rant over politics, any day. And thats saying a lot, because I find politics fascinating.

Wayne

Wayne
 
TandJ said:
Are you seriously calling me dishonest Carol? Seriously?
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No, not at all. I'm really sorry you thought that. I'm saying that the below option posted by Wayne, and suggested by you is not really sufficient in "CYA" although I know the intentions are good.

Would I errr on the side of caution and call the animal a het, when in all likely its a homo?

To call what very well might genetically be a Motley a non-Motley just because a couple checks showed up might come back to bite you. I'm saying that unfortunaltey no matter what any of us label these guys as we might be wrong. So dishonest in the way of being incorrect, not in the way of trying to deceive anyone, really bad choice of words on my part. I think it woud be better to CYA by giving the whole background to the new owner instead of calling it something it might not be (non homo Motley). I will often take non-Motley prices for checked Mots, but the customer will definitely know that it is possibly homo Motley and I'd never just stick it on the table as a normal.

I'm not sure what's so offensive about this thread either. :shrugs:
 
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Kind of an example here of what I was trying to get at before, check out this thread....

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74553&highlight=paradox

Lets just say for the sake of discussion, both parents of the animal in the link were Amels. Do we say this animal is NOT an Amel because we've been told for years that there is NO black on an Amel and it obviously does not fit the standard? After all, no black pigment is THE marker for an Amel.

If you hatched the above animal would you label it a normal? :shrugs:
 
Well Carol this is a very good point and I have the answer. Yes Amel as we know it is lacking dark pigment. So when a amel appears with dark pigment what did we do? We gave it another name "Paradox".

Plus look at the different names and variations of some morphs. Take Amel again for example: we have Amels, Candy Cane, Reverse Okeetee and what ever other names people want to give one morph.

So maybe that is what should be done with the few motleys with belly checkers hatched out. Maybe they should be called something different all together. We have motley, hurricane motley, striped, cubed, sunspot, vanishing stripe, banded and then there is how Sunkissed interacts with motley and stripe. So this may just be a new version of a pattern morph.

Testing needs to be done and maybe a new name could come out of these guys. I dont know something simple like "checkered motley".
 
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Is it worth testing? Is anyone really interested in Motleys with belly checks?

I really like the suggestion. It might be something I would be interested in doing "if" I had space. It's pretty tight in here already.

Wayne
 
Well, who really cares about the motleys' clear bellies? Isn't the dorsal pattern altering effect and the hypo-like effect the big deal? Like stripe?? The clear belly is just something that goes with the real visual action of the gene. The clear belly is more of a "negative" or "anti" effect- it takes something away, rather than adds it.
 
I don't know, I tried to call mine a Paradox motley when I hatched one and I got a less than enthusiastic response for using that name from people :shrugs:
Anyway here is the thread if anybody wants to look. It was about a year ago. Paradox Anery motley
Basically the parents were both motley het stripe, I got all motleys and stripes except that one anery motley had seven belly checkers or so. I sold it at a wholesale lot level, so I really did not put a lot of thought into letting the buyer know the genetics. But if it had gone to a buyer who cared about genetics I would not have sold it as a het motley if I knew it to be genetically a motley in spite of a few belly checks. If both parents are motleys how can it just be het?
 
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