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Testing for Stargazing

I would love to have a test by means of shed for SG. No matter what the cost was it would be a great tool and would be the only sure fire way that this gene could be culled from the corn snake world. On top of that if it could test for any gene/morph then that would be really sweet. Just think no more guessing your snake is het this or even Homo that because it is just to hard to tell with some morphs.

Test breeding trials to destroy 1000's of clutches and poss killing females in the process because of egg binding and such is just inhumane. As I stated before if someone out there that is fighting us even owning reptiles finds out that this is what we are doing would really hurt us as a nation.

Great record keeping people. If it shows up in your collection you know where those babies grand parents are and so on so you can remove that line from your breeding collection.
 
I have read this whole thead front to back. I have a few sunkisseds, but except for a loan with another breeder have never bred one. I plan to in the future though. I am not opposed to testing at all, but I do have a problem with hatching out babies that will be euthanized right after hatching out. I just don't know if I can do it. Not if it eats and is able to have a full life.

Right now the plan is to just breed only for certain projects, and if heaven forbid gazer pops up, retire every snake involved and keep the gimpy kids as pets. If testing was something that could be done in a year conclusively, I would do whatever was needed but creating life just to end it with no certain result is just something I am not prepared to do. At least not right now. I have to give it alot of thought, and still have a little time before my sunkissed kids are ready.
 
Catching some with the breeding tests is better than attempting to just spread the gene thinner!

Or should Russel have not tested.... because the stargazers he hatched out, might not have hatched out? Every single animal that is proven as het, and removed from breeding, helps to stem the tide.
 
My point is, how many breeders are going to test breed 3-4 years consecutively each breeder using the current form of testing? How many will test one clutch & then say those parents are tested?
 
My point is, how many breeders are going to test breed 3-4 years consecutively each breeder using the current form of testing? How many will test one clutch & then say those parents are tested?

As some are quick to say "If you don't test, it will come back and haunt you and show up in your sunkissed project," the reverse can be said, "If you test for a year...or even 4 years, it can still come back and haunt you and show up in your sunkissed project." All you are doing is playing with the probability of it showing up later down the road. The fact of the matter is, the chance of it being there will ALWAYS be there.
 
How about keep good records of your breeding projects, and if it ever shows up in a project, retire the project and contact the people who you might have sold project hatchlings to, so they know that it could show up in their project if they ever choose to breed one day. Think of how many lives would be saved!
 
As some are quick to say "If you don't test, it will come back and haunt you and show up in your sunkissed project," the reverse can be said, "If you test for a year...or even 4 years, it can still come back and haunt you and show up in your sunkissed project." All you are doing is playing with the probability of it showing up later down the road. The fact of the matter is, the chance of it being there will ALWAYS be there.

And they are very studiously ignoring the FACT that the SG gene is NOT limited to only Sunkisseds. To claim that by ONLY testing Sunkisseds with even 100 percent compliant testing of all Sunkisseds and Sunkissed carriers, and culling out ALL such Sunkissed stock carrying the SG gene will completely eliminate it from the gene pool of corn snakes is incredibly foolish and myopic. Listen up: That regimen will make absolutely NO difference whatsoever. The barn door has been open for years. The horses have fled, been running full tilt to the four corners of the earth, and been gone long enough that you might as well just burn down the barn. They are NEVER coming back now. Not unless you are perfectly willing to completely kill off a substantial portion of the population of corn snakes (meaning currently existing animals and a BOATLOAD of future born babies) in the process.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is just sticking their head in the sand.

So, get REAL, please. Use REAL facts along with some logical extrapolation of what those facts are showing you to come to a sound well reasoned TRUTHFUL and ACCURATE image of the situation. The INSTANT the first animal in Kathy's collection became a heterozygous carrier of this mutated gene, and that animal was bred to others and those animals sold (some of which were carrying the gene heterozygously, and therefore hidden, since certainly Kathy would never have sold any animals visibly exhibiting the symptoms of SG), it was very quickly spread around enough that there is NO chance now of eliminating it completely. The population carrying SG increased EXPONENTIALLY from that moment on.

I have sold MANY, MANY animals that were carriers of Caramel, Lavender, Ashy/Cinder, etc., as the original source of those genes, into the market before I ever even realized I had such genes in my stock. Unless you get an animal that spontaneously mutates to be homozygous for a new genetic trait, that gene will be hidden and quite likely spread around YEARS before you ever even realize that you have a new gene that cropped up. So Kathy was very likely unknowingly selling SG carriers long before she ever saw it exhibit itself in any of her own animals.

So you CAN'T get rid of SG now, nor EVER. Not without taking extremely drastic measures that most people will not have the stomach for. The solution would HAVE to be: KILL THEM ALL. And unless you have absolutely 100 percent compliance with this draconian testing methodology, the testing net will NEVER catch them all, and all of those dead corn snakes will be absolutely for nothing. All it would take is one carrier surviving and producing offspring that get sold into the marketplace, and you are right back to where this all started. So DILUTE it by strict outcrossing to where it becomes rare and irrelevant. Don't breed siblings together. Try to get stock from several different sources. Create parallel lines for any project you work with. Make a sensible plan to deal with this problem and then stick to it.

Seriously, there really is NO other rational way to deal with this.
 
Just to serve as emphasis for Rich's words.
There are NO Sunkissed Corns in Israel... none, not even hets as far as I know.
Guess what we do have though? that's right, Stargazers! Popped in a Ghost project.

So... yup.
 
Man I just love reading anything Rich writes. I wish I was as good with words as you. I guess the point here is each of us have to agree to disagree. Some will do there part by test trials and others will do there part by out crossing. Either was you decide to protect your stock will be up to you. I for one will not be breeding to kill. That is not why I got into breeding. I did it to create life not destroy it and maybe the hopes of producing the next great new morph.

If you are one that feels you should test by breeding trials know this A. you will have to test every animal not just Sunkissed and B. You will have to test for many seasons just to even think you dont have SG in your lines. I can only hope that one day there will be a real test for SG. I hope that this will be found before 100's, 1000's, tens of 1000's even millions of helpless corns are destroyed for NOTHING that THEY did wrong.
 
Speaking of testing for several seasons, I don't know how common this knowledge is, but a long while back I was talking to Doug Moody about his amelanistic Nelson's milk snakes, and asked how they came about. He told me that it was a real puzzler, because he had long term adults that he had been breeding together for seven (7) years, getting all normal colored animals, and then suddenly two (2) amelanistics hatched out of a clutch from those same animals. So that was seven (7) YEARS of breeding before luck rolled the dice to have that gene show up.

Never underestimate the power of Murphy's Law and Lady Luck.
 
As some are quick to say "If you don't test, it will come back and haunt you and show up in your sunkissed project," the reverse can be said, "If you test for a year...or even 4 years, it can still come back and haunt you and show up in your sunkissed project." All you are doing is playing with the probability of it showing up later down the road. The fact of the matter is, the chance of it being there will ALWAYS be there.

Is it necessarily simple recessive, or might it be a little more complicated then that? After reading through all of this, there seem to be persons breeding homoz to unknown, for a few seasons, before getting 99% conclusive results. One way or the other. Of course breeding a het to a homoz will usually produce the desired target.
I also wonder, with the large number of recessive genes out there, if some recessive gene combinations are more or less dominant over other recessive gene combinations.

When homo SG is bred to homo SG, is the phenotype inventory 100% Homo stargazer? Does the target phenotype inventory increase increase in the f2, and increase more in the f3? (Just as it would with any other geno or pheno line bred trait)?
 
Is it necessarily simple recessive, or might it be a little more complicated then that? After reading through all of this, there seem to be persons breeding homoz to unknown, for a few seasons, before getting 99% conclusive results. One way or the other. Of course breeding a het to a homoz will usually produce the desired target.
I also wonder, with the large number of recessive genes out there, if some recessive gene combinations are more or less dominant over other recessive gene combinations.

When homo SG is bred to homo SG, is the phenotype inventory 100% Homo stargazer? Does the target phenotype inventory increase increase in the f2, and increase more in the f3? (Just as it would with any other geno or pheno line bred trait)?

I'm not sure if anyone has ever successfully bred a stargazer to another stargazer. I'm interested in what it produced as well. As far as stargazer being simple recessive, I think it is more tricky. What if it is due to a weak line of genetics from the start? Maybe too much inbreeding early on?
 
If you do a search of Posts
containing the words: Lava Stargazer
it would seem that breeding unknown X het SG yields no SG.

Unknown x 100% het stargazer *should* yield all normals 50% possible het stargazer (if the unknown is not het stargazer). If it is het stargazer, anything that did not come up as a homo stargazer, would be normals 66% possible het stargazer. Working with "het" stargazers for testing would take MULTIPLE seasons of testing because of the greater odds of never reaching your target of producing a stargazer. You could test for the life of the animal and never reach your result. Creating a whole bunch of "het" stargazers for testing seems like it would be making more of a mess than what is already out there.
 
I don't get the "justification" for using het SG, even if it's 100% het, for the reason you mention, Troy.
For testing, using a homo SG would make more sense.
Even then, if a snake is het for something, it doesn't always show up in breeding. You may not get that gene one year, but then it pops up the next year.
 
Is it necessarily simple recessive, or might it be a little more complicated then that? After reading through all of this, there seem to be persons breeding homoz to unknown, for a few seasons, before getting 99% conclusive results. One way or the other. Of course breeding a het to a homoz will usually produce the desired target.
I also wonder, with the large number of recessive genes out there, if some recessive gene combinations are more or less dominant over other recessive gene combinations.

When homo SG is bred to homo SG, is the phenotype inventory 100% Homo stargazer? Does the target phenotype inventory increase increase in the f2, and increase more in the f3? (Just as it would with any other geno or pheno line bred trait)?

Yes does someone have the answer to this question.
 
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