hybrids vs. nonhybrids

[reptile_jones]

As a newbie, why would I ask "what makes it a jungle corn or a cinnamon?"??? Why would I not just consider it another colour when there are sooo many out there? Again, you are assuming that that a brand-new snake owner is going to do indepth research on hybrids.

Heck, I was a corn owner for several years and it wasn't until I found this site that I knew folks were breeding them. I don't recall a single mention of hybrids in Kathy's first book... of course, I probably read the sections on buying and caring for your corn (you know the IMPORTANT ones) a lot closer than the breeding section since at the time I had no intention of breeding.

The very reason you should ask "what makes it that?"

 

[Midnght]

a butter corn is not made from butter, so would that make that name wrong?

If you're talking about the term being accurate yeah.

Even if the initial part of the name Jungle, butter, rootbeer, whatever is just merely descriptive.
Corn generally denotes a corn snake as pure as it can be to the layman.
Which is where it gets deceptive. Not that those using it today are going out of their way to be deceptive. But standards can be changed for the better instead of being stubborn about it.

 

[ForkedTung]

Chris, I'm having a hard time reconciling you as a reptile breeder.
KJUN said it best!

I agree with you that the buyers SHOULD ask those type of questions, but to say the breeder has no responsibility to OFFER up relevant information that the buyer seems to be lacking is incredulous to me. It is delinquent. It embarrasses all responsible breeders

You are actually arguing against the dissemination of information
This is you own post here #34

The improtant part is that you always inform your customers of the lineage, making them aware that they are intergrades, and not "pure". I think that's the best anyone can ask or hope for at this point...

sounds great and then?
psot #85

But if a customer doesn't ask, I certainly can't tell them. I'm sorry, but the term "Jungle Corn" has been being used for long enough, and looks so completely different from any natural, non-hybrid, that it *should* be a no-brainer for a potential customer that is uninformed to simply say, "What is that?"

Huh? what happened to always?
post #91

It's not about difficult. It's about responsibility, and I am of the opinion that it is the buyer's responsibility.

I think your expectations of what a buyer should or shouldn't be or do are grossly out of proportion to reality.
your post # 72

Ultimately...it's labled for saleability, not to satisfy every potential question. *Most* people with even SOME experience in either kings or corns would recognize 99% of Jungle Corns for what they are...inter-genus hybrids.

OK, If it's about saleability then why this?
Then #115

KJun-
It's got nothing to do with trying to make a sale. Personally, I like hybrids, I think they are beautiful animals and I plan to breed them. There is nothing TO hide. Why would I try to hide something about the snake I put that much effort into creating

Placing the word "hybrid" after a commonly KNOWN and ACCEPTED trade name makes you a scholar? Nah...I don't buy that. A bunch of big words that don't amount to a whole lot doesn't make you any better than anyone else either.

You criticize Vetusvates for using " a bunch of big words" but fail to realize that even the word hybrid is a "big word" for newbies ( my show story is a perfect case in point!)

Why not add "hybrid"? WHY add "hybrid"? The name is KNOWN to be a hybrid, is ACCEPTED to be a hybrid, and has ONLY EVER been used to DESCRIBE a hybrid. Why be redundant? Why not simply accept that a "Jungle Corn" is KNOWN to be a hybrid and move on?

Yeah it is KNOWN to people in the know. but how did they get there. Osmosis? Standing next to a breeder unwilling to write the word hybrid on a cup? It is not KNOWN to people that do not know it? What could possibly be wrong with attempting to educate people?
Again: What is so difficult about writing hybrid on a cup?
Oh yeah, You said it's the buyer's responsibility.
Well I'm in the know and I know that I would consider it my responsibility. You can slam me all you want for trying to educate people because I remember when I was new to this and many people helped me to learn, especially on this site, and they didn't expect me to know.

 

[Kokopelli]

I still think it's amusing that some people claim that a JUNGLE CORN is obviously a hybrid while BUTTER CORN, LAVA CORN, AMBER CORN, PLASMA CORN and a deal of other morphs aren't. Why should he -assume- it's a hybrid and ask about it?
Maybe the next demand you'll put is to read a morph guide prior to buying?

Face it, it's a breeders-keepers terminology with close to zero scientific documentation. You can't expect an outsider to immediately know the professional language and terms you use. It's just absurd to expect and demand such a thing.

The term "Jungle" as I have said before is an existing morph in other snakes. If a person breeds BCI's and sees a Jungle Corn- heck, I think the logical thing to think is that's it's a hybrid.

For the past God knows how many pages, some breeders have insisted on not labeling their hybrids as hybrids and made both valid and far fetched excuses as to why they shouldn't- I can't find any good reason for the vehement objection other than the fact that they too believe it may affect their sales. Or else I really can't understand the stubborn, relentless objection.

I think that printing out the word Hybrid on the label is not a task that will kill anyone, and it's definitely not going over the line. You still don't want to label them as such? fine- it simply means that you're either:
1- greedy
2- too stubborn to be persuaded and prefer to continue possibly misleading people only to prove a point
3- very lazy

Sorry if I am being blunt but for the light's of me I can't see how such a step that can only benefit everyone at a minimal expanse of your time constitutes the outbreak of objections that were thrown around here.

 

[Kokopelli]

The term "Jungle" as I have said before is an existing morph in other snakes. If a person breeds BCI's and sees a Jungle Corn- heck, I think the logical thing to think is that's it's a MORPH
.

corrected my point. Sorry

 

[tyflier]

Dude...you took all of my posts out of context, and away from what I was replying to, and expect them to make sense? Read the topic. They make sense.

You are actually arguing against the dissemination of information

No, I am not. I am arguing that not using the word "hybrid" attached to the name " Jungle Corn" does not make me dishonest. Period. I am arguing that it is accurate, and it is. Period. Nothing about preventing the dissemination of information, or trying to breed ignorance.

Yea...tell your customers the lineage if they ask. Heck I will probably have it on my website with the photos. I know I will track it. But I'm not going to put it on every deli cup.

I told KJUN that not using the word "hybrid" wasn't about saleability. The trade name Jungle Corn IS about saleability. Two different conversations. Stop taking things out of context, and trying to make me look contradictory. My posts make sense IN CONTEXT and IN REFERANCE.

As I have said from the beginning...the name Jungle Corn is accurate. Using it does NOT make anyone dishonest or unscrupulous. You cannot blame me for someone else's ignorance.

And Ssssthisto...this is for you:

http://www.brazosvalleyreptiles.com/jungle-corn.html

This is the FIRST LISTING that comes up when you google "jungle corn". Clearly a definition of a hybrid. And it doesn't take a lot of skill to search it.

I'm done with this topic. The name is accurate. Period.

Ya'll can argue whatever you'd like, you can't change that fact. You aren't going to change ALL of the breeders across the world using the name "Jungle Corn". I think all of you need to take a step down off of your high horses and realize that the name is accurate. So get over it, and get over yourselves.

Geeze, you'd think you were gonna save the flippin' world over here. All you guys are doing is giving people that DON'T do their research fodder for their excuses.

 

[Kokopelli]

Tyflier, point of the matter is, you prefer to do the necessary minimum.
You act as though people demanded that you give a free guidbook with every snake and put a video screen that points as says what snakes are hybrids and what aren't.
You keep on insisting on not doing something which is minimal- and by excusing that other breeders do it and that's it's accurate.
So sure, it's not a lie- but it isn't the clear, complete truth either. And for reasons that are beyond me(I would rather not say what I really think) you prefer to stick to the bare minimum.

You are repeating the same phrase over and over again, that's fine, really. I simply completely disagree and feel I have better, more valid arguments than "it's not inaccurate to present the snakes under that label". With that approach you could also put a label that says simply "Snake" on every hatchling- that too isn't inaccurate.

 

[Midnght]

Dude...you took all of my posts out of context, and away from what I was replying to, and expect them to make sense? Read the topic. They make sense.

No, I am not. I am arguing that not using the word "hybrid" attached to the name " Jungle Corn" does not make me dishonest. Period. I am arguing that it is accurate, and it is. Period. Nothing about preventing the dissemination of information, or trying to breed ignorance.

Yea...tell your customers the lineage if they ask. Heck I will probably have it on my website with the photos. I know I will track it. But I'm not going to put it on every deli cup.

I told KJUN that not using the word "hybrid" wasn't about saleability. The trade name Jungle Corn IS about saleability. Two different conversations. Stop taking things out of context, and trying to make me look contradictory. My posts make sense IN CONTEXT and IN REFERANCE.

As I have said from the beginning...the name Jungle Corn is accurate. Using it does NOT make anyone dishonest or unscrupulous. You cannot blame me for someone else's ignorance.

And Ssssthisto...this is for you:

http://www.brazosvalleyreptiles.com/jungle-corn.html

This is the FIRST LISTING that comes up when you google "jungle corn". Clearly a definition of a hybrid. And it doesn't take a lot of skill to search it.

I'm done with this topic. The name is accurate. Period.

Ya'll can argue whatever you'd like, you can't change that fact. You aren't going to change ALL of the breeders across the world using the name "Jungle Corn". I think all of you need to take a step down off of your high horses and realize that the name is accurate. So get over it, and get over yourselves.

Geeze, you'd think you were gonna save the flippin' world over here. All you guys are doing is giving people that DON'T do their research fodder for their excuses.

Here's a simple question for you then.

Why won't you opt to change for the better?

You and others said I should change my substrate for the better. I have not changed yet, but plan to change to astro turf so as to make 100% certain they don't eat any loose substrate.

So again I simply ask you.
Why won't you opt to change for the better?

 

[Roy Munson]

If I have a mule for sale, would I be remiss for failing to explain its heritage to prospective buyers?

(Disclaimer: don't expect me to be too passionate about this topic. I'm just making a point. )

 

[Midnght]

If I have a mule for sale, would I be remiss for failing to explain its heritage to prospective buyers?

(Disclaimer: don't expect me to be too passionate about this topic. I'm just making a point. )

Yeah cause if I didn't know better and was buying 'em for breeding stock. I'd be S.O.L. };>)

 

[ForkedTung]

If I have a mule for sale, would I be remiss for failing to explain its heritage to prospective buyers?

(Disclaimer: don't expect me to be too passionate about this topic. I'm just making a point. )

OK Dean, I'll play:
I'll bet you could find more people that don't know it's a hybrid (and sterile for that matter) than you could that do in fact know.

and to answer your question YES, you would be if there was any indication that the buyer didn't know a horse from a donkey and/or you had it labeled as a Field Donkey or a Tundra Horse. LOL

 

[Weebonilass]

If I have a mule for sale, would I be remiss for failing to explain its heritage to prospective buyers?

(Disclaimer: don't expect me to be too passionate about this topic. I'm just making a point. )

Dean, Dean, Dean...

The difference is that most of the time a hybrid doesn't look that odd to a newcomer to the snakes breeds... heck I'm not and I mistook a leuc. rat for a blizzard :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh: ... on the other hand, the average horse does NOT have ears that stretch to the heavens... and I've never seen a mule that didn't have those ears no matter how much like a horse the body looked.

 

[starsevol]

Here's a simple question for you then.

Why won't you opt to change for the better?

You and others said I should change my substrate for the better. I have not changed yet, but plan to change to astro turf so as to make 100% certain they don't eat any loose substrate.

So again I simply ask you.
Why won't you opt to change for the better?

I've used astroturf. You might not like it. It is a haven for bacteria, and is NASTY to clean. No sharp edges and not injestable, so it's probably an improvement over the walnut. But snake poo is messy and cleaning that stuff is....well it's a MOST unpleasant chore! I just use sheets of newspaper. It is cheap, non injestable, safe, and easily replaced. And the snakes seem to like hiding between the pages and don't use the fancy-schmancy hides I provide. It's just not pretty

 

[Roy Munson]

I guess it depends on what you know. I think mules look more like horses than jungles look like pure corns. But I don't know bleep about equines. Caveat emptor.

 

[tyflier]

If I have a website with photos of hybrids labled as hybrids and in face-to-face conversation, all hybrids are referred to as hybrids...why is it so freakin' important to put the word "hybrid" on a deli cup? To be honest...I probably wouldn't put "Jungle Corn" on the deli cup either. The deli cup is for hatch date, shed date, and feed date...not for the cutomers but for MY records.

I don't care what is on the top of the deli cup. Heck I have bought boas with cornsnake morphs on the top of the deli cup. I don't care, because if I have a question as to the contents of the deli cup...I ask.

You guys aren't getting it. It's not about what I, personally, choose to put on a deli cup lid. It's about accepted trade practices. The bottom line is really quite simple...the hundreds of breeders out there that do NOT put the word "hybrid" in their labels are NOT going to change.

So is it better to sit here and call them "dishonest" and call ME "dishonest", or flippin' educate yourself?

The way I see it, beginners have two choices...go out and take everything at face value, which ALWAYS gets you nowhere when making purchases of ANY product or pet. Or go out there and educate themselves, ask questions, and KNOW for themselves, what they are looking at.

As far as I can see...the trade name is not going to change, and the practice of USING it is not going to change. The only thing that MIGHT change is the education level of beginner keepers. So instead of sitting here telling newbies "It's OK to be ignorant. We'll blame the breeders." I choose to say, "It's NOT OK to be ignorant. Educate yourself so you don't get taken advantage of."

Now...you tell me how that is dishonest or lacking of integrity...

I'm done with this. It's STUPID to argue with ME about what an entire industry accepts as standard practice...:bang::wavey:

 

[reptile_jones]

If I have a mule for sale, would I be remiss for failing to explain its heritage to prospective buyers?

(Disclaimer: don't expect me to be too passionate about this topic. I'm just making a point. )

No, the prospective buyer should have done their home work on the animal. The buyer has the responsibility to educate themselves.

 

[Weebonilass]

I guess it depends on what you know. I think mules look more like horses than jungles look like pure corns. But I don't know bleep about equines. Caveat emptor.

Yup and going out to buy a horse even as a newby, I know long ears are not normal in a horse. And yet with 8 yrs of experience with corns I mistook a leu rat for a blizzard... a white ball of hatchling mixed in with other corns, an assumption on my part until I asked about the parentage on the said white thing. I did recognize the gopher snake that was in the same display case.

Now, telling the difference between a QH & a Thoroughbred might be a little bit harder, but through in the hybrid donkey... and there are very definite signs that it's a hybrid, something that you don't necessarily see with hybrid snakes, esp. if it's a 2nd or 3 generation.

Also, a mule won't even consider eating your other horses if you decide to co-habit them

 

[RavenSpirit360]

I agree that buyers SHOULD do their homework, but a lot don't. That is why I will always make sure I educate people as to what they are buying. I think we also should shoulder some responsibility as breeders to educate the people buying the snakes also. It is both the buyer and the sellers responsibility I believe, to some extent
I also believe there will always be two sides to this arguement/discussion, so there is no sense in beating a dead horse, we will all keep on doing what we want to do in the end.. But it is nice to have the info out there for newbies.

 

[ForkedTung]

No, the prospective buyer should have done their home work on the animal. The buyer has the responsibility to educate themselves.

I hate to beat a dead Tundra Donkey...
so.....
I promise this is the last time I quote KJUN, but here it is, true, sound, amicable and based upon reality, not our perceptions of what buyers should be.

I agree with you that the buyers SHOULD ask those type of questions, but to say the breeder has no responsibility to OFFER up relevant information that the buyer seems to be lacking is incredulous to me. It is delinquent. It embarrasses all responsible breeders

It would be nice if the communications were 50/50, but that just is NOT the case, especially if the (hopefully more knowledgeable) breeder won't even agree to that!

 

[tyflier]

Yeah cause if I didn't know better and was buying 'em for breeding stock. I'd be S.O.L. };>)

Yes...you WOULD be S.O.L....because YOU chose to buy a STERILE animal for breeding purposes. Seems to me that anyone interested in purchasing horse breeding stock *should* know enough to realize that not only are ALL mules STERILE...they are HYBRIDS.

That's where research comes into play.

Mules have been around for hundreds of years, and are bought and sold for their reliability, sure-footedness, and trail worthiness...not breeding stock.

If you bought one to breed...YOU messed up...not the person that sold it to you...

Same is true of ANY animal you purchase. If I go to a dog breeder, looking to buy breeding stock for dog shows, and I walk out with a Cockapoo...who is at fault? Certainly not the breeder. If I buy a Cockapoo, it is MY responsibility to know what a Cockapoo is, and whether or not it is useful to me for MY intentions...