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hybrids vs. nonhybrids

If I have a mule for sale, would I be remiss for failing to explain its heritage to prospective buyers?

(Disclaimer: don't expect me to be too passionate about this topic. I'm just making a point. ;) )

Excellent! I’m afraid Deano just ended this lengthy discussion. I do live in horse country and many of my friends think that having green stuff on your shoes is a fashion statement. I have never seen a mule labeled as a hybrid. I have never seen a disclaimer that this animal may not make your best breeding stock.

As the pedantic jerk said so well, Buyer Beware. If you bought a mule with the expectations of breeding horses, I doubt very much anyone would point out the errors of you ways. But oh Lord, they would laugh and talk about you for years.

Mule is an excepted trade name for a hybrid. It is assumed that you know that. That is the way it is in the real world.
 
I'm done with this. It's STUPID to argue with ME about what an entire industry accepts as standard practice...:bang::wavey:

you aren't the entire industry though, and more than one breeder here actually agrees that your angle is minimalistic at best.
No it's not okay to be ignorant- but to cross your hands and blame the whole world for not seeing things your way is childish and a bit arrogant. To demand that everyone live up to the standards -you- imposed and than acting as if everything you think is or at the very least should be the absolute truth is... unrealistic at best.

A lot of the new snake keepers are ignorant at first. That's a reality we live in.
Many of them buy their first snake on impulse- is it the ideal situation? nope. But if you preach about raising the bar for new keepers- how'bout you not sell snakes to people who haven't made the effort to learn before buying?

I somehow doubt you will turn down a buyer. So you lecture about raising the bar for all keepers as long as it benefits you and helps you to minimize your responsibility. I doubt you will actually actively do anything to advance the much needed "change" you preach about.

You're trying to force new keepers to learn about snakes before buying, but only because it's easier for you. This isn't about your ideal or a concept you're passionate about. It's just better buisness.

And from a purely buisness point of view- I am more than positive that should the impulsive first purchases will cease, a large amount of the sales you make on a yearly basis will cease to exist.

Snakes currently suffer from a lot of prejudice, demonetization and falsified publicity. It should be within our best interest to -allow- new keepers to enter the community without them getting screwed over not being aware of what is a hybrid and what isn't. That's the only way you're going to see any progress within herp community.
 
Excellent! I’m afraid Deano just ended this lengthy discussion. I do live in horse country and many of my friends think that having green stuff on your shoes is a fashion statement. I have never seen a mule labeled as a hybrid. I have never seen a disclaimer that this animal may not make your best breeding stock.

As the pedantic jerk said so well, Buyer Beware. If you bought a mule with the expectations of breeding horses, I doubt very much anyone would point out the errors of you ways. But oh Lord, they would laugh and talk about you for years.

Mule is an excepted trade name for a hybrid. It is assumed that you know that. That is the way it is in the real world.
I don't believe for one second that if some big city type came to buy a mule from a horse country type and the seller knew that the buyer intended to breed it they would say nothing?
I guess if that were the case the ONLY reason would be that the sale takes precedence over integrity!
The reality is that this world is filled with people that are ignorant of many things, even things that they have a newfound interest in, especially newfound interests!
Some people would: ( please forgive me my complete ignorance in the following statement) consider a breeder to be a source of information, yeah they might actually expect a breeder to share some of their knowledge instead of having a RTF(field)M attitude.
 
Excellent! I’m afraid Deano just ended this lengthy discussion. I do live in horse country and many of my friends think that having green stuff on your shoes is a fashion statement. I have never seen a mule labeled as a hybrid. I have never seen a disclaimer that this animal may not make your best breeding stock.

As the pedantic jerk said so well, Buyer Beware. If you bought a mule with the expectations of breeding horses, I doubt very much anyone would point out the errors of you ways. But oh Lord, they would laugh and talk about you for years.

Mule is an excepted trade name for a hybrid. It is assumed that you know that. That is the way it is in the real world.

mmyeah, and you actually believe that snake hybrid names are common knowledge as the term "mule"? pray tell me where this reality applies. Certainly not where I live, and I imagine many others will say the same.
Also, do you see mules labled as mule horses? nope.
 
...Also, a mule won't even consider eating your other horses if you decide to co-habit them...

That may be true...but they are likely to kick the crap out of your champion mare if you have them in the same pen. It would suck to have a prize birthing mare with a twisted stomach from a kick by an irate mule, now, wouldn't it?

And whose fault would that be???

See...I'm all for education. But contrary to what some people seem to think...education does NOT come in the form of a deli cup. It comes through asking questions and seeking out answers. Nobody is advocating lying about lineage, and nobody is advocating selling animals under false pretenses.

What people are arguing about is whether or not accepted industry standards are enough. Some say no. I say...doesn't matter what my opinion is because the accepted standard won't change.

I have had Creamsicles and Jungle Corns for sale in my shop. I have had people come in and ID them straight away for what they are. I have also had people come in and ASK what they are. If I have a creamsicle or a rootbeer labled simply as that...it sparks the question, "Is that a cornsnake?" And the answer is always, "No. It's a hybrid."...which leads to a conversation about the lineage, the species used, and all kinds of interesting tidbits of exchanged information.

Even if someone says, "Oooh, that's a pretty cornsnake!" the conversation STILL takes place because an erroneous statement is just as good as a question.

THAT is education. NOT a label on a friggin' deli cup....

Blame breeders that lie. Blame breeders that breed without knowing. Blame pet shops that sell whatever to whomever without caring. Blame people that buy whatever FROM whomever without caring. But don't blame the people that use PROPER labels (like creamsicle, rootbeer, and jungle corn), and conversation for education and enlightenment.

Using a KNOWN hybrid name for a hybrid animal is NOT dishonest. If someone wanted to be dishonest, they would knowingly and willfully label a creamsicle as an amel corn. THAT would be dishonest. But if it has the creamsicle label...it's honest.

All of the add-ons, addendums, and fine print that people want to see on the labels is NOT going to stop ignorant people from making ignorant purchases or ignorant sales. Asking and answering questions *might* slow it down, but...there are ALWAYS going to be ignorant sods that simply don't care...regardless of the labels that are used.

I can sell a pair of creamsicles clearly labled as "Creamsicle: P. guttata X P. emoryi" to a guy, and that person can STILL go home, breed them, and sell baby "albino cornsnakes". My labels have done NOTHING to prevent his ignorant and/or dishonest practices. And frankly...there isn't squat I, or anyone else can do about it.
 
Tyflier, no one said it will remedy the world. But it's a step, a step you're unwilling to make.
The fact that there's a current reality doesn't mean you should just accept it for what it is and not try to change things. You are blaming everyone around you -including- future clients and keepers for hypothetical wrong-doing somewhere down the line but you absolutely refuse to take even the slightest hint of responsibility on your shoulders.

Many people who make a mistake are still wrong, even if many of them did it.
 
you aren't the entire industry though, and more than one breeder here actually agrees that your angle is minimalistic at best.
No it's not okay to be ignorant- but to cross your hands and blame the whole world for not seeing things your way is childish and a bit arrogant. To demand that everyone live up to the standards -you- imposed and than acting as if everything you think is or at the very least should be the absolute truth is... unrealistic at best...
I know I'm not the entire industry. The proof is in the pudding. The conversation is taking place not because Midnight bought a hybrid from ME, but from someone else.

The term "jungle corn" is used ALL OVER the place in regards to hybrid snakes. That's not me making stuff up...that's a fact. It's not about seeing things MY way, it's about me seeing things the way they REALLY ARE.

You said that paragraph as if I am the one with my arms folded pounding my chest to change the world but the fact is...it's EXACTLY the opposite!

This topic exists BECAUSE the "industry" uses the term "jungle corn". The topic exists SOLELY because "my reality" is the way it is. The topic exists because the few other breeders here arguing with me want this to change, not because I want this to change.

I DON'T want things to change. Why SHOULD they change? YOU guys want things to change. So who is standing there beating there drum to change the world? Not me.

The only thing I want changed is the level of education of new and prospective buyers.

My "angle" may be minimalistic, but...that's the way the majority of breeders do it. There is a reason why only 3 or 4 breeders were pointed out as using the term hybrid on every label for every deli cup of every hybrid they sell. It's because that is not how MOST people do it.

I don't want the world to "see things my way". Most of it already does...that's why we are having this conversation. It would be nice if every breeder was honest. Sadly...they aren't. It would be nice if every buyer was educated. Sadly...they aren't. NOBODY can change those facts.

Quite simply...if I was arguing for change...we wouldn't be having this conversation, because the majority of breeders would already be labeling everything as "hybrid" instead of using trade names, and there wouldn't BE any confusion or ignorance. Quite obvisouly...this is simply not the case.

Take a look around. Re-read the topic. Than try again. I';m not the one beating my chest to change the common practice. I'm the one that's saying, "This isn't going to change anything, so why bother arguing about it?" I'm the one saying, "People do what they want to do, so buyer's should educate themselves in order to protect themselves."

IMO...that is the ONLY answer to the question...

Nice try, though...:eats02:
 
Which is where it gets deceptive.
There is ZERO deception with the use of the term Jungle Corn.

The very reason you should ask "what makes it that?"
Bingo!

I still think it's amusing that some people claim that a JUNGLE CORN is obviously a hybrid while BUTTER CORN, LAVA CORN, AMBER CORN, PLASMA CORN and a deal of other morphs aren't. Why should he -assume- it's a hybrid and ask about it?
Actually, I don't label anything XXX Corn. All my hatchlings are labeled Bloodred, Lavender, Lava, etc. So IF I were selling Jungle Corn, the nomenclature is immediately different from "normal". Rich has XXX Corns listed at his site, but if memory serves, the label on his deli's was just the morph name without Corn. Kathy Love's website also lists her snakes without the name Corn on the end, while Don at SMR does have the name Corns with his listing. What's that mean? It's all a hodgepodge and the responsibility still rests with the person handing over the cash.

No, the prospective buyer should have done their home work on the animal. The buyer has the responsibility to educate themselves.
At least someone gets it. (I know there's more of you!!)

I agree that buyers SHOULD do their homework, but a lot don't. That is why I will always make sure I educate people as to what they are buying.
I have enough on my plate educating MYSELF and keeping MYSELF up to speed . . . I can't be held responsible for educating everyone else at the same time. If I'm asked a question I will answer it directly and honestly. I cannot anticipate, nor understand, each customers current knowledge base. I am also not going to offend them by speaking down to them. To blame me, the breeder, for not educating you when you don't ask the question . . . that's just lazy, and we already have too many lazy people in today's world.

That is the way it is in the real world.
But Wade, this is corn and kingsnakes. You can't expect us to be responsible here?!?!?

D80
 
Tyflier, no one said it will remedy the world. But it's a step, a step you're unwilling to make.
The fact that there's a current reality doesn't mean you should just accept it for what it is and not try to change things. You are blaming everyone around you -including- future clients and keepers for hypothetical wrong-doing somewhere down the line but you absolutely refuse to take even the slightest hint of responsibility on your shoulders.

Many people who make a mistake are still wrong, even if many of them did it.
I am not blaming anyone for anything. My "blaming" examples happen...everyday...already...all over. No matter what I, or anyone else do...it's going to continue to happen.

Pounding YOUR chest to make changes isn't going to work. Accept that. It's the way it is. People are inherantly lazy. Breeders will continue to use "jungle corn". That is not my fault. I didn't coin the phrase. I don't even like the term, but my opinion has no bearing on the reality. It is used...all over the place.

It's not about me being unwilling to do anything. It's about responsibility. Education comes through conversation and research, not labels. Ask and ye shall recieve. I am willing to give any person any answer I have at my disposal about any question they ask. That is the best that I can do.

No matter what labels are used...people are still going to make ignorant sales and ignorant purchases. It is up to the people who are educated and who DO have the right answers to provide them to those that care. When someone posts a picture of their new creamsicle and says, "What do I get if I breed my creamsicle to a lavander?" the answer is "Hybrids". That is education.

It's really very simple...people do whatever they want to do. Always have...always will. I do my absolute best to make certain that every customer that buys a snake from me at a show, off my site, or out of my shop knows precisely what they are buying...genetically and taxonomically.

If it were up to me...I would label all of my snakes with the taxonomical Latin. Problem is...it's not up to me. I have to sell my animals, so I use English, and I use trade names and morph names. *MOST* people ask questions about things they don't understand...and I answer them.

What more do you want? You want to have a boycott, and insist the world of breeders conform to YOUR ideals? Go for it. It isn't going to work but...give it a try.

I choose to accept what the industry does, and improve upon it on a person-by-person basis. That's really the only way that I can make a difference.
 
VERY well stated, Brent. I guess I need to spread some more reputation around, because I can't give you any more, yet...

Look at my website. I have a "Cornsnake Photo Gallery". NONE of my morphs are labled "Diffused Corn" or "Lavendar Corn". They are Butter Motley, Anery Motley, Normal, Lavendar, Diffused...etc,etc,etc. I don't attach the word "corn" to ANY of my morph labels.

Some people do, some people don't. So...where is your implication of purity?

But WHEN I have hybrids...if the word "corn" is attached...it *should* spark a question in people's mind. ESPECIALLY since it will be ion the "Hybrid Photo Gallery"...

By MY practices(and apparently a few others, as well...), Creamsicle is worse than Jungle Corn because it DOESN'T use the word "corn" as an attachment. (not to mention it is WAY more difficult to visually discern as a hybrid than a jungle corn...)
 
you aren't the entire industry though, and more than one breeder here actually agrees that your angle is minimalistic at best.
No it's not okay to be ignorant- but to cross your hands and blame the whole world for not seeing things your way is childish and a bit arrogant. To demand that everyone live up to the standards -you- imposed and than acting as if everything you think is or at the very least should be the absolute truth is... unrealistic at best.

Well to be fair the minimalists didn't create the standard, it happened long ago.

Though there is no good reason to not try to correct it (even if it may never take over ultimately) for the betterment of all.

Like anything what was standard 10, 20, 50, 100 years ago. Has room to become a better standard.
Think seatbelts.
 
...You can't expect an outsider to immediately know the professional language and terms you use. It's just absurd to expect and demand such a thing.

No, I don't expect an outsider to know the professional language and terms and I certainly don't demand it. I do, however, expect them to acknowledge to themselves that they don't know everything and to therefore do everything they can to learn it, which means, they ask questions.

If I were in a new restaurant and was looking at the menu, I sure would ask what Toad-in-a-Hole, Beef Cecils, Clapshot, Cullen Skink, Dean’s Cream, Fitless Cock, Flummery, Girdle Sponges, Huffkins, Hunter’s Buns, Love in Disguise, Inky Pinky, and Spotted Dick were before I ordered! I'm sure there are some of you out there that know exactly what all of that is, but I'll admit that I do not and will now look it all up!
 
I can sell a pair of creamsicles clearly labled as "Creamsicle: P. guttata X P. emoryi" to a guy, and that person can STILL go home, breed them, and sell baby "albino cornsnakes". My labels have done NOTHING to prevent his ignorant and/or dishonest practices. And frankly...there isn't squat I, or anyone else can do about it.

Now this I find a bit different.

One could in the case you use here rather than add hybrid. Drop the term corn.

Which will lead the horse to drink of the fountain of knowledge and ask is that a corn snake.

Dropping corn form hybrids in and of itself is a worthy endeavour in the right direction.

Jungle blah blah blah

Hmm what's a jungle is that a corn snake?
That's less work same results.
It'd work for me anyway.
 
Chris, If you don't want the world to see it your way why do you continue to argue any other way is wrong so vehemently, and is it really necessary to do so by using all those caps and phrases like "WTF" to address those of us who don't accept that your way is necessarily the right way for us? And saying we are all on a high horse because we disagree with you? Your way is right for you, My way is for me. That is my choice, but the fact I am willing to go the extra step to help a newby learn doesn't make me this pompous person with a holier than thou attitude, it doesn't make what I believe all a bunch of BS just because you see it differently than I do. And that works both ways. Noticed Brent, Wade, Susan a couple of other people have agreed how Jungle Corn should be sufficient but you don't see them getting so angry! Why get so frustrated that some people see things differently than you do? Why keep getting more and more worked up about it?
I have even stated that when I searched Kingsnake MOST creamsicles were not described as hybrids. But a couple of them were, and the fact that a couple of breeders out there are willing to make a little effort to include this info in the ad does give me heart.
It's not that I think Jungle Corn is wrong. It's that I think Jungle Corn Hybrid is better.
Yes a lot of people know a jungle corn is not really a corn. It's not them I am worried about and in many cases it is not them I am selling snakes to.
I don't care what the majority of people do. I care about what I do, and that doesn't make me wrong, high horse rider, stupid or any of these other things.
 
I have enough on my plate educating MYSELF and keeping MYSELF up to speed . . . I can't be held responsible for educating everyone else at the same time. If I'm asked a question I will answer it directly and honestly. I cannot anticipate, nor understand, each customers current knowledge base. I am also not going to offend them by speaking down to them. To blame me, the breeder, for not educating you when you don't ask the question . . . that's just lazy, and we already have too many lazy people in today's world.


I agree :) The way I will educate buyers as to what they are getting is by labeling my hybrids as Bairds ratsnake x Cornsnake, or Jungle Corn (king X corn hybrid). Thats why I say its both the breeders and buyers responsibility to an extent. Buyers should educate themselves before buying a snake, and breeders should have the knowledge available if questions are asked. As long as the breeder has the knowledge to answer the questions asked and does not falsify the truth, then the breeder has covered their end. The main responsibility yes lies upon the buyer who should find out all the info first before buying. But the truth is most first corn purchases are done on impulse at a petstore or etc.
I know your a good well educated breeder Drizzt ;) Your one of my faves :)
Srry, thats off topic
 
And Ssssthisto...this is for you:
http://www.brazosvalleyreptiles.com/jungle-corn.html
This is the FIRST LISTING that comes up when you google "jungle corn". Clearly a definition of a hybrid. And it doesn't take a lot of skill to search it.
I don't know about you, but I must admit I don't take my laptop and a broadband dongle everywhere I go... is this a common thing for newbie potential snake owners to do, so that they can Google up information about the pretty snake morph they're looking at while they're at a shop or a show? Or are they honestly more likely to think "it says it's a corn so it is a corn".

How many "Please identify this corn morph" posts are there on here every week? I know I answer at least three a week on another forum. Obviously they've BOUGHT the pretty corn snake at that point and NOW want to know exactly what it is. Wouldn't it be sad if they asked and found out their corn was a Jungle hybrid - and their very next post is "my jungle not-a-corn ate my caramel corn before I could separate them, gee I wish the shop had told me it was a kingsnake cross when I bought it... gee I wish the shop had KNOWN it was a kingsnake cross too."

And please, it's double-S-this-to. Pronounced "this-TOE" with an inhaled breath at the start.

I guess it depends on what you know. I think mules look more like horses than jungles look like pure corns. But I don't know bleep about equines. Caveat emptor.

But you are more familiar with snakes than you are with horses :) Someone who knows every breed of horse and what colours they can come in but doesn't know anything about snakes would say the opposite - that mules and horses are as different as night and day, and that snakes look all the same to them ;)

To someone who doesn't know, say, Blue-tongued skinks, a pure Indonesian is going to look a lot like a pure Irian Jaya is going to look a lot like a Northern Australian. They haven't learned the "keys" to look for. I sure didn't when we bought Bartleby - we bought him as Tiliqua scincoides (the Australian species). Turns out, on checking out pictures on the web (and seeing "this Aussie photo doesn't look much like Bartleby at all...") he's actually Tiliqua gigas and almost certainly specifically an Indonesian based on comparisions of dozens of photos to our actual skink. But I did that comparison work because I'm a librarian at heart, anal-retentive about accurate and correct labelling and because I'd rather know NOW that Bartleby may well top out at thirty inches instead of expecting half to two thirds that!

To our favourite local shop's credit, when we went back and said "it's not a scincoides, it's a gigas" he said "Sorry about that, it's what was on the wholesaler's sheet, I'll make sure the person who bought the other one knows." He knew full well we didn't want to return Bartleby because we already loved the little bugger to death - but he wanted to make sure the OTHER buyer was happy with that too.
 
Jen...it's not "my way". It's "the way". It's the way it is done. It's the way it has been done. It's the way it will continue to be done, regardless of how you, myself, or anyone else in this topic feels about it.

Again...I am not the one arguing for change. I am not the one saying that anyone doing it differently than myself is dishonest, has ulterior motives, or lacks integrity. These accusations are coming from the other side of the argument...not me.

Please...in the immortal words of Eric Clapton..."Before you 'cuse me, take a look at yourself." I am NOT the one fighting for change...YOU are. It's not about seeing things "my way". It's about seeing the reality of the way things are, and you do NOT see the way it is.

"My way" is not my way...it's the way it is. YOUR way is the "new way"...the changes YOU want to see are the changes to the "standards". The arguments YOU are making are the ones that are trying to "buck the system"...not mine.

Don't get confused on the issue. I don't want anything to change...YOU do. Try to remember that...
 
But you are more familiar with snakes than you are with horses :) Someone who knows every breed of horse and what colours they can come in but doesn't know anything about snakes would say the opposite - that mules and horses are as different as night and day, and that snakes look all the same to them ;)

Absolutely! :) That's why if I'm ever in the market for a horse, I'm going to do some serious research prior to purchasing one. Heck, I'm going to bring my buddy Deb with me, because she's a horse expert. Of course, I'll do my best to find a reputable horse breeder, but I'm not going to consider that to be the end of my responsibility as a buyer...
 
I know your a good well educated breeder Drizzt ;) Your one of my faves :)
Srry, thats off topic
Thanks, you're making me blush. For the record, I think adding the word hybrid to a label isn't all that much to ask . . . BUT, I have a huge problem with the REASON that single word has to be added. Laziness.

How many "Please identify this corn morph" posts are there on here every week? I know I answer at least three a week on another forum. Obviously they've BOUGHT the pretty corn snake at that point and NOW want to know exactly what it is.
Depressing to me that it's so darned important AFTER the fact, but not BEFORE handing over their cash . . . :shrugs: And they're asking about regular old corn snakes more times than not!! That's funny right thar.

Wouldn't it be sad if they asked and found out their corn was a Jungle hybrid - and their very next post is "my jungle not-a-corn ate my caramel corn before I could separate them, gee I wish the shop had told me it was a kingsnake cross when I bought it... gee I wish the shop had KNOWN it was a kingsnake cross too."
Uh-hmm, that's exactly the impetus for the current discussion . . . ;)

But you are more familiar with snakes than you are with horses :)
Because HE made HIMSELF that way, NOT because someone else began imparting information upon him.

:shrugs:
D80
 
Absolutely! :) That's why if I'm ever in the market for a horse, I'm going to do some serious research prior to purchasing one. Heck, I'm going to bring my buddy Deb with me, because she's a horse expert. Of course, I'll do my best to find a reputable horse breeder, but I'm not going to consider that to be the end of my responsibility as a buyer...

Sadly a lot of frist time buyers don't have friends to rely on. Or if they do they don't know corns. }:>/
N they usually figure those at shows are reputible or they wouldn't be allowe din.
 
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