Are we killing the future market?

[Vinman]

We're in total agreement regarding ending the life of any animal humanely as possible.

I agree total suffering sucks

 

[KJUN]

On Mice or snakes? On mice (not counting pinks), it looks painful (i.e., agonal death), but they have shut down by time you see all of the jumping. They aren't registering anything by then. The death throes come too late for them to interpret that they are in pain...they just LOOK horrid.
KJ

 

[Vinman]

But if that's what the downfall is to a morph, why did you bother with morphs that are crashing?

A) Vin says that if you sell hets instead of cull them you ruin the market.

B) Vin says he'll gladly invest in cheap hets from Rich Z because he actually ends up with animals the market does want.

Are you honesty saying you don't see how A and B can not live in the same reality?

I was just bulding back up my stock crashing no the prices were riseing . Hell I got 4 way hets fof 150 a pair the first year I got them I bred them and produced the first amber motley in the hobby.

dont take what I say out of context I mean the het from a new gene. Stop picking bits and peaces of what I post to make your own story. Now you know I said may trimes I'm talking about a total new gene.

Because A&B are being interuped in your words not mine .

 

[Snyderman]

Best $25.00 I've ever spent.

A big thank you for one of the most entertaining threads of all time. :cheers:
This thread alone is worth the cost of a supporting membership.

For those who haven't read the whole post, you don't know what you have missed -- finance, mystery, drama and debate.

My hat is off to all of the participants for the level of civility maintained despite the intensity of the discussion. No one took their ball and went home. Perhaps it's the intelligence of the members( your understanding of genetics is impressive) that allows them to see beyond the printed word and take it with a grain of salt understanding the idiosyncracies of each poster. It is much easier to have an intense discussion in person where you can see facial expressions, and there is more opportunity for natural give and take.

This thread has been more instructive than some college courses that I have taken. Whatever you level of breeding(no pun intended), I hope everyone makes it through these rough times.

Grateful new member, Tim

 

[Vinman]

Vin, if I understand correctly you neuted the males? How did you go about neutering them?

That is a whole nother thread I promis to answer that if you send me a email I have said that answer many times inother threads [email protected]

 

[Vinman]

Jen Pagram I have pulled some of the road in theOkeetee as Chip B. will tell you how many are dead each night on the okeetee roads and in the burns. I have saved a few that were on the road.

 

[carol]

So you'd never buy animals that were het for a new morph?

 

[KJUN]

A big thank you for one of the most entertaining threads of all time. :cheers:

Many of us disagree, a lot of us seem to dislike each other, and there is even some actual dislike....but we are still like one big, happy, partically dysfunctional, family. Welcome, Cousin Tim!
KJ

 

[Vinman]

So you'd never buy animals that were het for a new morph?

Carol I'm poor . 08 killed me I lost about 30 grand between the snakes and the dragons . back then the 90's most I spent was 1600 for a pr of anery hondurans. When the cinder droped in price I saked rich if he would sell me the Het key female that started the whole thing. It was after the cinder droped below a 1000. If I was to buy into a cutting edge project I would buy a het male the second year they were offered for sale and breed it into some other morphs and back breed. by that time I make some higfh dollor on a multi morph useing that gene.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Jen Pagram I have pulled some of the road in theOkeetee as Chip B. will tell you how many are dead each night on the okeetee roads and in the burns. I have saved a few that were on the road.

Yup, I have done the same for gopher snakes where I used to live and have also had a couple I chose to crush their head with my heel because they were too far gone to save
FWIW right from the start I think I have understood your point of view in this whole argument and just happen to disagree on whether it can work that way in the real world.

Snyderman I am glad someone is feeling like they are getting their moneys worth!! Considering we keep going off topic and all over the map.

 

[Vinman]

Yup, I have done the same for gopher snakes where I used to live and have also had a couple I chose to crush their head with my heel because they were too far gone to save
FWIW right from the start I think I have understood your point of view in this whole argument and just happen to disagree on whether it can work that way in the real world.

Snyderman I am glad someone is feeling like they are getting their moneys worth!! Considering we keep going off topic and all over the map.

All I'm saying is cant we try. it is better than doing nothing at all. I'm glad you are cutting back. I'm going to try to produce the most I can since last year blew chuncks.

 

[carol]

Carol I'm poor . 08 killed me I lost about 30 grand between the snakes and the dragons . back then the 90's most I spent was 1600 for a pr of anery hondurans. When the cinder droped in price I saked rich if he would sell me the Het key female that started the whole thing. It was after the cinder droped below a 1000. If I was to buy into a cutting edge project I would buy a het male the second year they were offered for sale and breed it into some other morphs and back breed. by that time I make some higfh dollor on a multi morph useing that gene.

Yep, so am I and a lot of other people. There are only so many people who can afford to buy a $1,000 snake, let alone a snake that is more than that.
In fact the number of people willing to spend that kind of money for a new morph will run out REGARDLESS of whether or not you've culled all your hets. ESPECIALLY if you black list people and are choosy about who you sell too.
You can cull all your hets but after a couple of years you will run out of high dollar buyers and you will have to drop your prices anyway. Just about then the people you did sell homos to will be your competition in a year and so and the price can only go down. Those homo buyers will also be in a great position to create morph combos using that new gene.

OR you can sell your hets for a price that is still very profitable to the "poor people" (there is a lot more of us around). I bet you those buyers are going to keep most of the homo animals out of the first clutch. That means they won't be your competition for at least three or four years and they'll only be producing a handfull of animals. By the time they have an adult homo animal, about 5 years later, the market for that morph would have dropped whether you sold those hets or culled them. By that time you would have already crossd your orginal homo animal a hundred ways to Sunday for new morph combos. And you would have made more money, saved lives, and occupied other breeders with trying to reproduce that morph instead of outright buying a homo in the beginning. If they had done that they'd be hot on my heels on crossing it into other morphs.

So I actually believe that selling hets is a better gig than selling homos. But if you don't buy it, that's fine with me. I'll keep it to myself. :eats02:

 

[Vinman]

Yep, so am I and a lot of other people. There are only so many people who can afford to buy a $1,000 snake, let alone a snake that is more than that.
In fact the number of people willing to spend that kind of money for a new morph will run out REGARDLESS of whether or not you've culled all your hets. ESPECIALLY if you black list people and are choosy about who you sell too.
You can cull all your hets but after a couple of years you will run out of high dollar buyers and you will have to drop your prices anyway. Just about then the people you did sell homos to will be your competition in a year and so and the price can only go down. Those homo buyers will also be in a great position to create morph combos using that new gene.

OR you can sell your hets for a price that is still very profitable to the "poor people" (there is a lot more of us around). I bet you those buyers are going to keep most of the homo animals out of the first clutch. That means they won't be your competition for at least three or four years and they'll only be producing a handfull of animals. By the time they have an adult homo animal, about 5 years later, the market for that morph would have dropped whether you sold those hets or culled them. By that time you would have already crossd your orginal homo animal a hundred ways to Sunday for new morph combos. And you would have made more money, saved lives, and occupied other breeders with trying to reproduce that morph instead of outright buying a homo in the beginning. If they had done that they'd be hot on my heels on crossing it into other morphs.

So I actually believe that selling hets is a better gig than selling homos. But if you don't buy it, that's fine with me. I'll keep it to myself. :eats02:

For all the years that you know me about 4 at the most. you know I have a hard time explaing my self on the computer. I'm not talking about culling hets all the time. Untill you set the strain then you can sell hets . I would be tossed if I had the gene morph for sale would I also have hets avabile. I've tossed this aroung for years and I know some people have sold het before they sold the morph. I think I would not . I think the only way would sell hets the first year is to friends and only one or two of them. Yes I would out cross it But unlike most big breeders I dont have the room to do it to everything I would like so I would do one or two multi hets with the most genes in it as possibile.

08 for me was a flop I only produced 25 to 30 babies and about 100 dragons. Everything went wrong I had 3 customers from eroupe. I would have sold more than 1/2 of my stock over seas. I have reduced the collections to the bare minimum. I had to go back to suplementing my animals diet with store bought meat and rodents. 2 to 1 ratio. My animals went all down south as far breeding, reabsorbed eggs, clutches died, unfertile clutches, females did not breed in both dragons and snakes the fish did great???????

 

[carol]

Carol I'm poor . 08 killed me I lost about 30 grand between the snakes and the dragons . .

That sucks.

2008 was my best year ever, it exceeded all expectations and I did it all with a morph that you say is crashed. :shrugs:

I've had horrendous years too. We are all due one sooner or later, one more reason I don't worry about competition as much.

 

[Vinman]

I will oly have 10 to 20 females this year producing for me. I only hope it is at the latter end of the scale. I dont expect to have big clutches . I have not pumped the females to the weight I like. Good enuogh to breed but not as thick as I normaly would. Last year the female that threw me pied sideds re absorbed her clutches. She is the first to breed this year. She is nice and thick she got extra food

 

[Susan]

I've stayed out of this until now, but just have to make one comment concerning these "high-end" new genes. Not every new gene is commanding a $1000 price tag. In fact, the first price tag I recall seeing for a particular newly accepted gene was $150. And that was for a morph that was not only homozygous for the new gene, but also for 2 other genes as well. A triple homozygous corn morph that contained a new gene for a mere $150. I don't think Rob raked in the dough on that one. (I have no idea what Rob was selling blue motleys for before they were accepted as anything other than selectively bred anery motleys or hybrids, but from what I recall, I doubt too many members of this forum bought them.) And by the time that gene was accepted by this corn snake community, it was found in multiple collections all over the world. So those of you who are commenting about the drop in price from $1000 to $500 to $300 for new gene morphs, it doesn't always happen that way.

 

[Chip]

Vinman... you really lost thirty f-ing grand!?!

 

[Vinman]

yep mystery project. My HLB was bred to to HLB hetfemales. carmal motley het hypo PH albino would not breed. Pied project reabsorbed both clutches. striped blood red projects bla. hypo miami project floped go 1 ok looking animal. . Hy hybrids screw up to . Corduran X jungle . 2 unfertile clutches. Hypo publanX corn F2 produced 2 clutches that did nit go full term. Jungels would not breed, then the lizards trans projects the hypo projects yes from 20 to 30 grand down the tubes.

 

[ForkedTung]

I'm going to try to produce the most I can since last year blew chuncks.

How is flooding a dead market good economics?
Oh yeah, they'll all be going to the European market? Is that correct Vin? What's going on across the pond there anyway? Does anyone know how badly their economies are faring since ours took a drop?
What's the reptile (cornsnake as well) market like over there?

 

[Vinman]

How is flooding a dead market good economics?
Oh yeah, they'll all be going to the European market? Is that correct Vin? What's going on across the pond there anyway? Does anyone know how badly their economies are faring since ours took a drop?
What's the reptile (cornsnake as well) market like over there?

I sold a lot of animals off last year to make some money. I dont have many breeders anymore. 10 to 20 females and not as fat as I like . no saying they are skinny but they are not where I like them to be so I think I will be getting small clutches. My pied project are only het to het blood. I will selling a lot of males wholesale. I will see how the market is over there in eroupe when The time comes. If I produce more that I can use the I will cull some of the higher end animals if I have to. I need the multi homo animals that I'm working on.