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Are we killing the future market?

That just prove my point. I got most of my high end morphs for pennys on the dollor . Just like you got your cinder. I bought so many animals off rich adult and sub adult that had genes I nevered pay for the HLB I bought as het for hypo charcoal and blood, The lavender was a fluke . RZ subadult stock was so good fom my projects . I got some by total accedent. I always called RZ stock guss a het because 9 times out of 10 you got more than what you paied for. I got this stuff right before all the prices went high for corn snake morphs. Now my stock is a guess a het stock. But it for this and get a free bee or two
 
To me that just proves that you are willing to get good deals and new genes through the generosity and willingness to share of another breeder passed on to you and yet you would rather kill the snakes and give them a horrible death (feeding LIVE cornsnake culls to your dragons is very cruel) than do the same for other people because all you care about is the money it makes you.
 
carol said:
Ya too bad they are worthless because Rich sold to them you instead of culling them.
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Live and learn. It is what I'm saying. I'm sure you got your fair share of flukes. The cinder was a good suprise, better than anything I got. Like i said when I bought my bluk off rich nothing was worth more than 300 bucks
 
ghosthousecorns said:
To me that just proves that you are willing to get good deals and new genes through the generosity and willingness to share of another breeder passed on to you and yet you would rather kill the snakes and give them a horrible death (feeding LIVE cornsnake culls to your dragons is very cruel) than do the same for other people because all you care about is the money it makes you.
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no I sold pleanty of animals Ph for other genes. Now the whole thing I'm getting at is How do you stop the prices from droping down fast is to limit production of cirten morphs. and if you got something new like KJ has then you are going have to take some precaution to where the off spring go.
 
Vin's right - limiting production is the best way to keep prices sustained. Diamonds are worth money because they don't dig them all out of the ground "at once" even though they could if they tried hard enough. There is lots of oil in the group, but OPEC doesn't pull all of it out as fast as possible, because they'd make less money that way.

I don't believe in selling multi-het morphs cheap. If someone wants them (new projects - not old stuff), then they'll be happy to pay the big bucks to be one of the only ones with them. The extra? Split them up and send to pets stores. Whatever. What people ignore is that keeping your prices up ALSO helps YOUR CUSTOMERS. This results in trust between you and your buyers when it comes to future purchases. It just makes sense.

Remember, even if a morph goes down from $2k to $500 in two years, the first round buyers still get a lot of selling potential. They may make MORE, actually, since they will sell more than they would at $2k. It's the ones that dawdle until they see there IS a market and then buy them at $400, but in finally, and then they drop to $100 and lots have them. The point is, buyers need to know WHEN to buy in - remember the basic definition on an euntrapanuer that we all learned in basic college economics! - ane buy in early. It's the middle comers that historically lose their butts. The late comers have too little to lose to matter, and the first ones have to sell their babies for less but for still a lot of money as a group.

That's OK. Real investors understand this. THAT IS THE POINT OF MIKE"S POST. That's normal depreciation. HOWEVER, the knee jerk paranoia that is happening is making them drop from $2k ro $100 in one year. That loses buyer confidence and devalues the morphs. It basically can make everyone lose money. If that is the case, sure, you may be able to get a newer morph cheap....but the major drivers of morph creation will be out of business....and the number of new morphs each year will decrease to a smaller and smaller trickle. That hurts us all.
KJ
 
snakewispera snr said:
Mice forums probably hate us for feeding their POTM.
My mate breeds snakes to feed to some King cobras that are his real babies...... It all depends on which side of the fence you view it from.....
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There's a big difference between breeding animals for food- that were destined to be feeders in the first place- mice, fish, worms, cows, whatever, and breeding a high-end morph and killing the babies (when you could easily just hold them over, increasing their value!!!) JUST to prevent the price (that they aren't selling for) from dropping.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
To me that just proves that you are willing to get good deals and new genes through the generosity and willingness to share of another breeder passed on to you and yet you would rather kill the snakes and give them a horrible death (feeding LIVE cornsnake culls to your dragons is very cruel)....
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Really? Is feeding off to dragons less humane than feeding off to kings or black milks? I do that every year. And not only "unsaleable" stuff such as kinked, extra males, and common morphs, either. I also feed off non-feeding or poor-feeding gray bands, pyros, and such. It seems as humane as freezing to me. It's *literally* the circle of life and the way most hatchlings meet their end in the wild. Healthy feeding hatchlings I can always at least give away as pets, problem feeders and the occasional hyper-aggressive snakes are another matter. I do take the extra step to cool them (hatchlings to be fed off) first, but I really can't see jumping anyone for feeding a reptile off when they feed much more intelligent and aware rodents off without a thought. Just my two cents.
 
Nanci said:
There's a big difference between breeding animals for food- that were destined to be feeders in the first place- mice, fish, worms, cows, whatever, and breeding a high-end morph and killing the babies (when you could easily just hold them over, increasing their value!!!) JUST to prevent the price (that they aren't selling for) from dropping.
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I've been joking a lot because most of this is funny, but this is a serious question: what if the cornsnakes were intentionally bred for food. What about people that breed normal or amel corns to feed their adult corals, hatchling kings, etc. If they breed the corns FOR FOOD, is this OK? Like with mice? I say this because I see nothing wrong with it. i know it bothers some people, but it is hypocritical for me to feed mice to snakes but not snakes to snakes. Lots of people think of mice like we think of snakes.

Now, if it is OK to breed a normal to a coral because it was bred for food, then it would be OK to breed the extra high ends to corals if you only breed them for your keepers and the rest food, right? Take it the next step. If it is OK to feed any healthy snake (or mouse!) to a snake, why is it wrong to feed another one? I'm not poking to bother - this is a serious question for everyone who thinks it is OK to feed mice to snakes but NOT OK to feed snakes to snakes. Shrug?

For the record, I'm not saying "feed live" - whether it is snakes ro mice! I don't support painful deaths if it is at all avoidable!
KJ
 
Nanci said:
There's a big difference between breeding animals for food- that were destined to be feeders in the first place- mice, fish, worms, cows, whatever, and breeding a high-end morph and killing the babies (when you could easily just hold them over, increasing their value!!!) JUST to prevent the price (that they aren't selling for) from dropping.
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Nanci You know we are cool you have been a good friend so dont tske uit the wrong way . Who are we to say one organism has the right to be used as food and one should not. Now it takes a lot of time and money and space to care for all the surpluse of a new gene morph
 
The circle of life and mother nature...that's life in the wild. This is animals in captivity we are talking about. At the moment we make them our captive property is to me when the necessity of humane treatment steps in. Even a feeder mouse at a huge facility usually at least gets a humane death by co2.
I'm not condemning the fact a corn snake is being used as food or judging using them as feeder animals. It's the unnecessary suffering. If that's the only thing the Bearded Dragon would ever eat and it would otherwise starve, I can see why it would be necessary to feed it live. The same as a snake that absolutely will not eat F/T. But in this case it sounds as if it's something thoughtlessly being done just as a way to quickly dispose of an animal.
 
Vinman said:
That just prove my point. I got most of my high end morphs for pennys on the dollor .
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But if that's what the downfall is to a morph, why did you bother with morphs that are crashing?

A) Vin says that if you sell hets instead of cull them you ruin the market.

B) Vin says he'll gladly invest in cheap hets from Rich Z because he actually ends up with animals the market does want.

Are you honesty saying you don't see how A and B can not live in the same reality?
 
ghosthousecorns said:
The circle of life and mother nature...that's life in the wild. This is animals in captivity we are talking about. At the moment we make them our captive property is to me when the necessity of humane treatment steps in. Even a feeder mouse at a huge facility usually at least gets a humane death by co2.
I'm not condemning the fact a corn snake is being used as food or judging using them as feeder animals. It's the unnecessary suffering. If that's the only thing the Bearded Dragon would ever eat and it would otherwise starve, I can see why it would be necessary to feed it live. The same as a snake that absolutely will not eat F/T. But in this case it sounds as if it's something thoughtlessly being done just as a way to quickly dispose of an animal.
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I agree with ending the life of any animal humanely as possible. Vin said most won't eat live. Dragons make do make pretty quick work of their prey, they don't wound it and wait for it to die. Would it be better for Vin to cull them with co2 and throw them in the trash or have them suffer a fairly quick death and go to use? Please don't take the question as an attack, I only asking because I want to know your opinion. :)
 
I have a lot of dragons. It's never occurred to me to feed them a hatchling snake. But from the way they feed, I would suspect it would be a fairly quick end. But dragons eat veggies -I'm certain they'd eat a f/t snake if offered by hand... probably if simply put in their bowl.
 
Vinman said:
Very well put . I have given some snakes to people as pets that were big bucks.they were multi hets. Some I did neuter,I cant do it to the female snakes.
I'n talking about a new gene mutation that no one else has. You have to protect you investment of time and money. I'm not talking about a hobbiest point of view it is a professional business point of view. You have to make sure you are the only one with the morph if you want to make money
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Vin, if I understand correctly you neuted the males? How did you go about neutering them?
 
I didn't want to ask... my guess is snipping the hemipenes?
 
Eli173 said:
I agree with ending the life of any animal humanely as possible. Vin said most won't eat live. Dragons make do make pretty quick work of their prey, they don't wound it and wait for it to die. Would it be better for Vin to cull them with co2 and throw them in the trash or have them suffer a fairly quick death and go to use? Please don't take the question as an attack, I only asking because I want to know your opinion. :)
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I have not seen them in action, it might not be as bad as it sounds. So my opinion might not be the most informed one out there, but I think Chip might have found some sort of middle ground by cooling them first?

FWIW I did keep king snakes for a while before and tried to feed them a frozen thawed cull and none of them would ever eat one. So maybe it has to be alive. I just don't have the answer to this.. I have 3 baby corns that were culls in my freezer right now. I put them in a fridge for a while and then the freezer, and I have seen arguments on this site before that that is also inhumane. But less than letting it starve to death because the suffering was over quicker.

kind of :-offtopic... but if you have ever seen a snake that is run over by a car or something, a lot of the time they are still alive and it's an injury that any mammal would be dead if it had happened to one. Their nervous system or something is different so I think it might take a snake longer to die than a mouse if being eaten by another snake?
 
ghosthousecorns said:
kind of :-offtopic... but if you have ever seen a snake that is run over by a car or something, a lot of the time they are still alive and it's an injury that any mammal would be dead if it had happened to one. Their nervous system or something is different so I think it might take a snake longer to die than a mouse if being eaten by another snake?
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Plain and simple: if the brain is destroyed, the animal is dead no matter how much the body moves. If the brain is not destroyed, then it may still be alive. Even cervical separation, as I learned watching some catfish experiements, may mean a long period of active brain activity in some ectotherms before brain activity ceases. Bouble pithing (or something that does the same thing) is the way to go if you can't drug them. Cooling then freezing probably "aint that bad."

elrojo said:
I didn't want to ask... my guess is snipping the hemipenes?
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I've had to do it on a few snakes, and the wife has done it on many more. Various reasons why, but it can be done relatively humanely....and not as bad as most people would think. I've never done it to one that didn't need it, but I could if there was a REASON for it.

crackerhead said:
Mike made a post? I think I missed it. What was it about exactly?:crazy02:
Terri
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Mike who???? Is there a Mike around???
KJ
 
I'm glad you are seeing some of the points made. Another horid lie in the business , not say you lied . just sayit is a myth : humane death by co2. Have you ever seen this I have . as a vollenter at the BX zoo reptile house. It is not preety they struggle of a breath of air maybe some of you dont know what it is like but I have esthama. I know what goes through your mind when you cant breath. I say a good slam over the head and neck is more humane
 
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