Controversial topic?

[Tula_Montage]

Was having an interesting conversation with a snakie pal the other night, and realised I had been meaning to post a topic like this for a while.

The question is, would you own ALL the animals you currently do if you couldn't share them with others and show them off on the likes of internet forums? It seems that unfortunatley there are some keepers out there who only buy new snakes to impress OTHER people and not actually buying the animals they personally want. I have seen this result in the individual constantly buying and selling snakes to "show off". If forums didn't exist would you still take the same pride in your animals and still want to own every single one you currently do?

I personally believe in buying what you desire without giving a crap about what anyone else will say or think. Heck, you need to look at that animal for the next 15-20 years so why not enjoy what you buy right?

The same goes for corn morphs. Sorry I'm not interested in drab morphs (amels, normals, caramels etc) with the most fantastical glitterystripeybumfluff hets in the world. I'd rather wait and just get the one morph I wanted.

WHY oh why are people so highly influenced by what other people have?! Forums to me, sometimes seem like a big ole mass of snakie peer pressure!

 

[Eriathiel]

Well I'm with you Elle. I own the snakes I own because I think they are beautiful. I'm VERY picky. I've gone to show after show and not gotten a single thing because it wasn't just what I wanted. I get my pets for me, not for others!

Of course that being said, I love sharing pictures of my babies with everyone on the forums! If it wasn't the forums I'm sure I'd find other people to show my pictures too!

 

[Tula_Montage]

Well I'm with you Elle. I own the snakes I own because I think they are beautiful. I'm VERY picky. I've gone to show after show and not gotten a single thing because it wasn't just what I wanted. I get my pets for me, not for others!

Of course that being said, I love sharing pictures of my babies with everyone on the forums! If it wasn't the forums I'm sure I'd find other people to show my pictures too!

Exactly! I am horribly picky about snakes. Perhaps you could call me a snake snob?!

I think you guys know I LOVE sharing pictures, but more so for the photography aspect and the fact I love being behind a camera. If I didn't have snakes I would still bore you all with other pictures LOL.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I do agree with you to an extent. I have what I want, and everything on my want list is something that I really do want.
Although I do admit, if you had never shown me pictures of your candoia's, I probably wouldn't have gotten them. I was up to... 6 snakes, I believe before I found the forums. So would I still have them if I was never on the forums? Yes. I love my snakies so very dearly, and it really is more about them. Yes, they're pretty to look at, and it is fun to show them off when you get a new one. I really don't see why people take in animals they don't want just to impress others. If that were the case, I'd have 20+ retics and 20+ burms already. I would be well over 100 snakes (possibly 200), and not have just the 37 I have now.
I do understand breeders, however, getting the "garden variety corns" with tons of hets. For the business, it's better to buy a snake that can produce $500 morphs than it is to go out and spend $1000 buying a pair of the morphs themselves. For hobbyists who have the kind of money to spend on the high-dollar morphs, more power to 'em.

 

[Tula_Montage]

I do agree with you to an extent. I have what I want, and everything on my want list is something that I really do want.
Although I do admit, if you had never shown me pictures of your candoia's, I probably wouldn't have gotten them.

I do understand breeders, however, getting the "garden variety corns" with tons of hets. For the business, it's better to buy a snake that can produce $500 morphs than it is to go out and spend $1000 buying a pair of the morphs themselves. For hobbyists who have the kind of money to spend on the high-dollar morphs, more power to 'em.

Ah but it is my wicked wish for everyone to own candoia, I will admit to trying to get people to realise just how fantastic they are!

I understand these kinds of questions aren't really aimed at large scale breeders, because like you say hets are simply the only way to make new morphs etc etc etc. And they don't have the same amount of time to dedicate to each individual snake like us soppy pet owners do. I have always wondered though, what makes people go from hobbyist to full scale HUGE breeders? Does something just click or is it a gradual accumulation of animals? And what posesses someone to have thousands of animals? I guess I will never understand and every breeder will have his or her own personal reasons...

 

[Toshiro]

Personally I keep pets because I love animals and love taking care of them.
I sometimes feel sad if I look at site where you can sell stuff.
So many reptiles (and others) that are being sold,
just because people don't have the time to take care of them.
Maybe some people should think before they buy.
Or be a bit more like Elle. Picky.
I'm not saying everybody who sells their pets due to lack of time
should've thought better before they bought them.
But I don't think I'm wrong when I say, many people should think more.

But to answer your question:
I don't buy pets to show them off.
I would've bought them even if I had nobody to show them to.

 

[tricksterpup]

Elle,
Very good post and a very good question and topic.

I have to say I agree with you but I believe it tends to happen with younger people than us older herpers.
I have a huge variety here and there are some snakes here that I do not show pictures of.
But i am one of the first people to share my snakes with others. But I do educational shows with my animals part time. My main goal is to teach others and second to breed.
But over the years , I have seen so many young people on so many different forums buy animals that they do not have a clue on care. I have seen animals in horrible shape from rescues or brought into a petshop for them to "fix" their status symbol pet.
Heck, there is a list of people even here at CS of people with "Status" Symbol pets. Just to impress us older herpers or other newbs. They may deny it and I may ruffle a few feathers with that comment but its true.

 

[tsst]

I got mine because they are what I wanted. I am not a breeder so hets mean very little to me.

My corn is a normal. He is not impressive by breeder/collector standards but I like his pattern and deep colors and borders. I got him because I liked him. Though I do like adult bloodreds.

 

[Marcel Poots]

I have had snakes longer than I have been connected to internet I got internet in 1993 and yes keeping snakes became a lot more fun. I own snakes only for my own pleasure. For example, I do have an Amel and Snow and a Normal I think some people go a bit too far by owning hundreds of snakes. It becomes an addiction. No addiction is good for you.

 

[Tula_Montage]

Personally I keep pets because I love animals and love taking care of them.
I sometimes feel sad if I look at site where you can sell stuff.
So many reptiles (and others) that are being sold,
just because people don't have the time to take care of them.
Maybe some people should think before they buy.
Or be a bit more like Elle. Picky.
I'm not saying everybody who sells their pets due to lack of time
should've thought better before they bought them.
But I don't think I'm wrong when I say, many people should think more.

But to answer your question:
I don't buy pets to show them off.
I would've bought them even if I had nobody to show them to.

Fantastic post Toshie. I have been guilty of buying an animals and selling it at a later date. Take petal pie for example. I bought her because I wanted to try lizards. We didn't get on... I just didn't understand the needs and wants and behaviour of a gecko, so I sold her to someone who did. I miss her, but it was the best decision for both of us. That I would say was a responsible decision and I don't regret it at all. I sometimes wish I had never bought her, but at least now I know I won't make the legged creature mistake ever again. And I did enjoy the short time I had with her

Elle,
Very good post and a very good question and topic.

I have to say I agree with you but I believe it tends to happen with younger people than us older herpers.
I have a huge variety here and there are some snakes here that I do not show pictures of.
But i am one of the first people to share my snakes with others. But I do educational shows with my animals part time. My main goal is to teach others and second to breed.
But over the years , I have seen so many young people on so many different forums buy animals that they do not have a clue on care. I have seen animals in horrible shape from rescues or brought into a petshop for them to "fix" their status symbol pet.
Heck, there is a list of people even here at CS of people with "Status" Symbol pets. Just to impress us older herpers or other newbs. They may deny it and I may ruffle a few feathers with that comment but its true.

I absolutely agree. The younger and less experienced herpers tend to power through so many snakes in their first few years. I did....guilty as charged. Buying new snakes is like an addiction HOWEVER I found exactly what tickles my fancy quite quickly. I wanted snakes that interested me, challenged me and are just pain easy on the eye So now I have my "standards" and it's proving rather difficult to meet them. Ahhhh!

I got mine because they are what I wanted. I am not a breeder so hets mean very little to me.

My corn is a normal. He is not impressive by breeder/collector standards but I like his pattern and deep colors and borders. I got him because I liked him. Though I do like adult bloodreds.

The fact he is perfect to you is all that should ever matter!

I have had snakes longer than I have been connected to Internet I got Internet in 1993 and yes keeping snakes became a lot more fun. I own snakes only for my own pleasure. For example, I do have an Amel and Snow and a Normal I think some people go a bit too far by owning hundreds of snakes. It becomes an addiction. No addiction is good for you.

Nicely said dude. Although I am perfectly happy with my many many addictions including snakes, nicotine, shiney things and frozen yogurt!

 

[Toshiro]

Fantastic post Toshie. I have been guilty of buying an animals and selling it at a later date. Take petal pie for example. I bought her because I wanted to try lizards. We didn't get on... I just didn't understand the needs and wants and behaviour of a gecko, so I sold her to someone who did. I miss her, but it was the best decision for both of us. That I would say was a responsible decision and I don't regret it at all. I sometimes wish I had never bought her, but at least now I know I won't make the legged creature mistake ever again. And I did enjoy the short time I had with her

Things like that happen. And you made a responsible decision
by doing what was best for Petal Pie.
I don't see you as a bad owner, by far.
We all have to learn lessons in life, I guess

 

[kathylove]

I had lots of corns and other herps long before there was an Internet, lol! But, even back in the "old days", I always considered the camaraderie of like minded people to be ALMOST as important as the animals themselves. Not so much the showing of each others' animals (although that can be nice if somebody has something new), but just the sharing of a hobby, new ideas on keeping, or other associated, shared news, such as new products, and concerns, such as commiserating together about new laws and what to do, etc. I have traveled to other parts of the U.S. and the world, and enjoy the fact that it seems like we have "instant friends" around the world because of our shared interest. I assume the "instant friends" would be true for passionate aficionados of all kinds of interests, or "subcultures". I REALLY like that part of it!

But I have always had a desire to be in a business related to my interests. So that means I do have to keep some types that I probably would not keep as just pets. However, I have whittled it down over the years, and am avoiding types that I really don't care for, because it is much easier to sell something I am really excited about. I hope to tailor my colony to fit both my taste, and my customers' tastes, even more in the future. It is not a static ideal - although I still like much of what I did many years ago, my favorites keep evolving over time, and I will try to keep my collection evolving as well.

So, after all of this meandering around, here is the short answer to the question: No, the Internet doesn't make any difference to me in what I keep (except that it helps advertise whatever is for sale). However, because I do have to pay the mortgage, electricity, etc., each month, I do keep SOME herps that I would not keep strictly for my pets, in addition to also keeping them for my business.

Great topic for discussion!

 

[Tula_Montage]

Perfect post as usual Kathy. You hit the nail on the head in regards to how nice it is to share your animals/interested with people who are just as excited about them as you. Thats the nice side to it, however I was refering to the "show off" side more than anything.

It's great to see someone of your reputation and staus in this hobby posting about your collection, and the fact you have worked hard to produce snakes you are excited about! I think thats the key to success. There is just absolutly no point in doing something you are not passionate about. If you're gonnae do it, do it right I say!

 

[kathylove]

I don't believe it is irresponsible for keepers to try out a new species and sometimes find out it just isn't a good fit. Then they find a new owner who is a better fit. I see that as very responsible, AS LONG AS the species and its care was researched before purchase. That way, obvious problems (such as an animal that will get WAY bigger than you can deal with, or has a dietary need you can't provide, etc.) will be discovered before purchase. But there are LOTS of more subtle needs and behaviors that can only be discovered through keeping and caring for an animal. So how will you ever know unless you try it (unless you are lucky enough to be able to care for an animal - for an extended time - that belongs to somebody else)?

Hubby always likes to say that some people live and learn, and others just live. That (and taking responsibility for your mistakes) is the difference between maturity and immaturity, at least to me.

 

[LBoz]

I am guilty of "new owner syndrome." I found my first because I really really wanted one, and THEN I found cs.com. The pics and posts and excitement of the breeding and new pips and different morphs were like a hypnotic drug to me. I had to have more. Fortunately, I'm also an old lady, so I'm aware of my limitations. I have the six now, but I've bonded and love them and yes, four of them are pets and will be nothing more. I have a favorite morph and got a pair from Terri last november, and I'll patiently grow them up and try breeding them once. Now there are several snakes that I'd love to have, but only one or two that I WILL have. It's hard to resist the temptation to indulge my collectoritis urges, especially when I see such gorgeous animals you all post here. I'm learning to just live vicariously through all of you and enjoy your photos, so thanks to all of you for sharing them.

Great post, Elle. I just got out of bed, so this was a good jump-start for my brain!

 

[Tula_Montage]

I don't believe it is irresponsible for keepers to try out a new species and sometimes find out it just isn't a good fit. Then they find a new owner who is a better fit. I see that as very responsible, AS LONG AS the species and its care was researched before purchase. That way, obvious problems (such as an animal that will get WAY bigger than you can deal with, or has a dietary need you can't provide, etc.) will be discovered before purchase. But there are LOTS of more subtle needs and behaviors that can only be discovered through keeping and caring for an animal. So how will you ever know unless you try it (unless you are lucky enough to be able to care for an animal - for an extended time - that belongs to somebody else)?

Hubby always likes to say that some people live and learn, and others just live. That (and taking responsibility for your mistakes) is the difference between maturity and immaturity, at least to me.

Agree 100%. I have kept a couple of species of snakes I just didn't get on with either (hoggies are a good example). I knew how to care for them perfectly, I just didn't like their behaviours. I have most definitely found my perfect genus (candoia) now, but it took a while to get there. There is absolutely nothing I don't like about them. Absolutely fascinating little snakes, and with so little really known about them it makes everything just so much more exciting. Sharing my experiences with other keepers and people who potentially want to buy them but just don't know enough is a great feeling.

Bill is right, and that regrets are just mistakes you don't learn from.

 

[jenneses]

Elle,
Very good post and a very good question and topic.

I have to say I agree with you but I believe it tends to happen with younger people than us older herpers.
I have a huge variety here and there are some snakes here that I do not show pictures of.
But i am one of the first people to share my snakes with others. But I do educational shows with my animals part time. My main goal is to teach others and second to breed.
But over the years , I have seen so many young people on so many different forums buy animals that they do not have a clue on care. I have seen animals in horrible shape from rescues or brought into a petshop for them to "fix" their status symbol pet.
Heck, there is a list of people even here at CS of people with "Status" Symbol pets. Just to impress us older herpers or other newbs. They may deny it and I may ruffle a few feathers with that comment but its true.

Jim, I may be a little guilty of this. I did my research and settled on corns as a great first snake. But as I frequented the forum and chat, I saw a lot of different snakes I hadn't considered, or had dismissed for one reason or another. Some of it had to with size, or attitude.

As I became more comfortable with the snakes I had, and realized being bitten wasn't such a big deal, I felt more comfortable to expand my collection. I've tried to be smart about it, choosing only animals that I really, really like and ones that I can see fitting into my one bedroom apt (even as adults).

After doing much measuring of inside walls, it's become apparent, I can fit 8 adult bci, 18 corns (corn sized snakes), and perhaps 4 or more larger than corns, but not as big as bci.

But I admit, the forum has been influential in my expansion. Not because I want to take pretty pics to share, but because everyone else took pretty pics and introduced me to a snake I didn't know anything about. That caused me to do more research on that species. Once I'd done my research, asked some questions of those who had one, I was able to determine if that animal was one I could "handle" for lack of a better word.

I have to admit, there are some reptiles, I'd love to have, but for various reasons have to hold off on, or just forget about.

 

[starsevol]

Kathy nailed it twice, I think.
I had snakes before I was hooked up to the 'net, because I enjoy them. But now that I'm on the net, I have MORE snakes! I did try a few species before I settled on corns, I still have 6 rosy boas to this day and found great homes (mostly through my now-defunct herp club) for the rest.

My animals delight me and dazzle my eyes on a daily basis....but I do admit it is awfully nice to post "show-off" pics from time to time and get some satisfaction when they delight and dazzle others. I mean, I love them ALL, but is it any wonder why Vidalia is one of my very favorites?

 

[Hypancistrus]

Good topic, Elle!

Personally I keep pets because I love animals and love taking care of them....But to answer your question: I don't buy pets to show them off. I would've bought them even if I had nobody to show them to.

Toshiro hit the nail on the head for me. I've been keeping pets since I was a small child. My mother's parents were (are-- grandma still lives) great animal lovers, and they passed it to her, and she passed it to me and I grew up hearing stories of their busy "animal house" in the 60's... it has always been a dream of mine, a goal even, to live surrounded by animals. I love caring for them, meeting their needs, and watching them grow strong and healthy. They ARE my children-- at this point I really feel no need to have the human variety because my critters do it for me. To ask if I would still have these animals if there was no internet would be like asking people on a parenting board if they'd still have had kids if there was no parenting board.

CS.com, FishGeeks.com, and my other forums are like a parenting board-- a fun place to hang out and share stories, pictures, husbandry techniques and more.

But i am one of the first people to share my snakes with others. But I do educational shows with my animals part time. My main goal is to teach others and second to breed.

I also enjoy sharing my pets with others. Forums make a convenient place, but my favorite way to share my pets is in my classroom. There is NOTHING better than having one of my 14 year olds come into class scared of snakes and walk out having held one and enjoyed the experience-- and I've seen it happen again and again. I wish I could do more shows for elementary school kids, but I have a limited number of days off during the year, and am at work at the HS most of the time that ES is in session.

I had lots of corns and other herps long before there was an Internet, lol! But, even back in the "old days", I always considered the camaraderie of like minded people to be ALMOST as important as the animals themselves. Not so much the showing of each others' animals (although that can be nice if somebody has something new), but just the sharing of a hobby, new ideas on keeping, or other associated, shared news, such as new products, and concerns, such as commiserating together about new laws and what to do, etc. I have traveled to other parts of the U.S. and the world, and enjoy the fact that it seems like we have "instant friends" around the world because of our shared interest. I assume the "instant friends" would be true for passionate aficionados of all kinds of interests, or "subcultures". I REALLY like that part of it!

This is completely awesome. I met Tara on this forum, and there's just no words for what that has meant in every aspect of my life. I have spoken with others who have met their significant others on a pet forum. It just makes good sense to hang out with like-minded people. The vast majority of people I truly consider friends I have met via internet pet forums. Some of them I see in real life, others I just talk to on the 'net. But we share a bond that my non-pet corworkers and real life acquaintances sometimes cannot understand. Case in point... I could share my snake photos with people at work, sure... but I'd have to corner them first!

Jim, I may be a little guilty of this. I did my research and settled on corns as a great first snake. But as I frequented the forum and chat, I saw a lot of different snakes I hadn't considered, or had dismissed for one reason or another. Some of it had to with size, or attitude.

As I became more comfortable with the snakes I had, and realized being bitten wasn't such a big deal, I felt more comfortable to expand my collection. I've tried to be smart about it, choosing only animals that I really, really like and ones that I can see fitting into my one bedroom apt (even as adults).

This is another good point-- I see snakes that are beautiful on CS.com, and this leads me to want to try them. I research them before buying, and am not influenced by "cool factor," but CS.com provides a spring board into seeing and buying types I may never have found had I not been a part of the community.

Again, great topic Elle!

 

[ZoologyGirl]

I personally believe in buying what you desire without giving a crap about what anyone else will say or think. Heck, you need to look at that animal for the next 15-20 years so why not enjoy what you buy right?

Completely Agree!

Heck I agree with most peoples responses...good thread!