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Just what we need.....
- Thread starter Walter Smith
- Start date
Camby
He will join us or die
Yeah, I chuckle when I see that posted over and over by so many people. NIMBY at its finest.Sure, I agree with the sentiment, but that does NOT mean I want my foreign customers and friends hurt instead of me. One would hope their importers bump the prices up to help out their business people over there. Of course, that hurts the average buyer, but I gues SOMEONE has to get the short end of the stick.
Not sure why it was worth a laugh, but agreed, I do not want to see anyone "hurt" with price slashing period. However, after the high cost associated with snakes being imported into europe or wherever and with their being alot less morphs in other countries, the prices aren't "cut" as bad there...YET.
Yeah, but I am not retiring so I don't want to drop the prices now to hurt my friends and my potential sales down the road. Conversly, if others care so much about them going into the freezer, then why not send me the money to buy them. Maybe you and others aren't offended, but it offends me when someone sees my amel stripes and offer me $15 for them. They are worth more than that and I refuse to sell them for ridiculous prices. Breeding them isn't counter productive. I created several of my "over the counter" animals this year as by-products of projects I am working towards. I am not putting amels together in the hopes of producing 50 more regular amels just to sell for $10-$15 each, that would be a waste of time.
The recession is somewhat a factor, but I don't really believe it is the biggest factor, I think it is mainly due to the fact that the market is saturated. The ball python markets started crashing prior to the recession. The corns are just coincidental to the recession (for the most part I think).
PS. Interesting addendum to your latest post about not liking Lavenders.
Was that in regards to my post? If so I am confused, I do like lavenders and haven't mentioned them, I did mention Lavasbut I was just making a riduculous comparison. Point was, retiring or not, I didn't agree with Rich selling his animals so cheaply prior to Daytona and at Daytona, but hey, there his he can do what he likes, nothing I can do or say to stop it.
dc
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Sorry, yes, I mistyped. It should have read:
PS. Interesting addendum to your latest post about not liking Sunkisseds.
I had Lavender stuck in my head since much of the discussion centered on the price of Sunkissed Lavenders. Either way.
The offhanded point I wanted to make was that you don't like Sunkisseds hence, any price put on them would realistically be "too high" for your personal interest and taste. That's part of my problem with Platinums. For whatever reason the "drab" gray morphs aren't as spectacular to other people's tastes as they are to mine. :shrugs: That's part of my burden in deciding to breed and produce them. Lucky for me (maybe) I breed for my tastes and accept the lumps that come along with it.
Granted, I'd love to sell every corn I have for top notch dollar (who wouldn't), but that's not the reality. The reality is we're selling snakes. Cornsnakes. They all eat the same meal (pinky mouse) and take up the same amount of space (delicup, sandwich box, pick your hatchling cage) and use the same amount of heat (83*F here) regardless of whether the snake is $15 or $1500 or is Normal colored or Fuschia. :shrugs: Some live, some die. Some are a combination of multiple genes, some are a combination of one gene. Either way, they're snakes. They are not a true necessity to anyone's life. (Arguable for those that do this as a living, but Rich found out what the banks think of that when potential buyers couldn't secure loans . . .) Which leads me to the question that never has really gotten answered either . . . what makes a *insert morph here* ball python worth $10,000?
D80
Pruddock
Gig 'Em Ags!! Whoop!!
Lol Love the snake czar idea. I was thinking it the entire time I was reading the thread and everybody was asking about who should be in charge of prices. With regards to the whole Rich and Rich sell-off thing. I would bet that the majority of the hep community did not attend Daytona and normally doesn't. I know I'm just a college kid and I don't have the money nor the time to take off and drive or fly over to Florida. And if I did, I wouldn't have any money to spend when I got there. So, as a consumer I'd have to say that somebody taking Rich's prices and snakes and bumping them up a couple bucks and selling them online at STILL low prices is a great way for me to grab a couple of morphs I've been wanting for a few years now. It's a free market economy and people are going to do what they want and sell where they want. The only thing you can do is try and make it at the prices you think are fair for the time and effort you put into the snakes, or try and compete with the other guy. Either way, the competition is still going to be there because its their decision to sell at whatever price they want. You can't control it, you can either deal with it or get out. It's not JUST this industry and its not JUST you that's being effected. It's every industry in the US and it happens to everybody. So sell something of a higher quality at a higher price, or compete. Whatever you decide that worst thing you can do is sit around and complain about it because 1) you're letting people know that there are better prices out there and 2) you're coming across as a whiner and nobody likes a whiner...
I'm out.
I'm out.
Roy Munson
New member
Oh, and PS. This is a topic that has been discussed and debated and pondered and shared and ruminated and etc. etc. etc. well before the current recession hit.
D80
I'm not even a REAL old-timer here, but it's funny how cyclical these discussions are. I'm guilty myself! Regards, Brent.
Michael823
New member
This reminds me of Michael Crabtree's mentality. For those who don't know, he is an NFL rookie who was drafted 10th overall by the 49ers, and is holding out from accepting his rookie contract in because he feels that he is better than the player drafted earlier, and feels he should be paid more. If he doesn't get paid what he feels is reasonable, than he will re-enter the draft next season.
So he missing out on this seasons pay, but he is banking on a better contract offer next time around. He'll have to be drafted higher than he was this year just to make more, which is unlikely seeing he has a clear ego that no one wants to overpay, and he will have missed a full years pay.
These are the times when you adapt or die, and there really is no sure bet in waiting to make money later. Plain and simple I find this ridiculous, and your business will not last with that mentality. I sure know I won't pay high end value for someone who just decides to freeze snakes that won't sell at their desired price, and I'm sure I'm not alone. "If others care so much about them going into the freezer, then why not send me the money to buy them", seriously, this is the type of statement that will cut off all potential transactions from me.
People offer what they can, get over it. I really don't care if it offends you because you may have expected a more fair price, maybe that's all they can afford. Clearly they're not selling at your definition of market value, so lower the price, or don't get paid, plain and simple.
If you can sell 50 more Amels at $10-$15 a piece, and you call that a waste of time, then your expectations are rather spoiled, especially in these times.
It's the ONLY factor!
Well business was still good for him correct? You don't see him complaining correct? So maybe he is the one who understands the art of making money, and if you don't than you have no right to be offended. To me it sounds like if your goal is money making, than you are expecting too much, and will get nothing until you adapt. And I would assume your goal isn't just to hatch wonderful pets, and make a return investment, as this would exclude freezing them if you don't get paid enough.
KJUN
Well-known member
Obviously this must be a joke if you think that the number of new morphs that look JUST like the old morphs, the sheer quantity of more and more new morphs being created each year, the increased quantity of breeders/competitors, saturation of the demand (these things do live many years!), price dropping that was occurring prior to the "crash," etc have nothing to do with the prices on cornsnakes right not. You must have meant that as sarcasm, and I just missed it.
I don't agree with DC that the economy isn't the biggest factor, but I certainly agree with him that there are other GIANT factors. To see what was happening before the crash, you really would have to go back at least 12 months. Them price dropping was still going on; however, there were still some high end snakes being sold. The difference was that the number of high end purchases was getting divided among a NUMBER of new morphs - not just one every couple of years like it was 12 years ago. Plus, why would the average person spend $1,000 for the golddust stripe (not a breeder) when they could get an Amber stripe for $250. Face it - those look too darn similar to justify that amount of price difference for the average pet keeper - even a well off one. (That is ignoring the fact that anything with ultramel in it has seemed to tank faster than any other gene out there for one reason or another.)
Additionally, the world has changed. Some people are doing better in the new world. Some breeders have gotten left behind. The ones left behind think it is due to this or that.....but they just aren't as competitive as they used to be. Old techniques MAY just not work to get your product out there and purchased. It may be time for new techniques. Notice I keep saying "may." This is nothing more than a conclusion, untestable, on what I've seen over the past 12-15 years or so.
Finally, maybe (like parakeets), you can no longer make a living breeding cornsnakes unless you are GIANT and small profits on each baby adds up to enough. This means workers, buildings, wholesalers all over the country, etc. We may be talking a minimum of 5,000 adult females or something. Economy of Scale applies to snakes, too, and we may just be seeing a massive increase in minimum sustainable breeding pool size due to decreased profit per hatched baby cornsnake. I can't say I LIKE this, but this MAY be what is happening. Someone yelling, "I SHOULD be able to make a living at this because I WANT/NEED to make a living at it!" is like a kid crying because he can't bring the hole inside even after he spent all day outside digging that hole. It just doesn't make sense.
whippet
Tara
Prices drop.
Fancy new morphs become old hat.
A butter stripe was worth 300 last year sure...but for example...its only worth 100 now. Why?
Not because one person lowered the price. Because 50 more breeders produced them. For gods sake they have one at my local pet store now! It's amazing how fast big morphs go from being rare to everywhere.
The Terressas are a great example. Sure they are getting a grand now. But if they are co-dom then in 3/4 years the market will flood with them and they will probably only get 300. 2 more years and you can pick up one for 100 bucks (I am so getting one).
It's the same thing will ball pythons or anything else in this world.
Supply and Demand. More supply of high end morphs...less demand because people have them or don't have the money yet. So you sell cheaper to raise demand. This is like 8th grade studies.
I collected My Little Pony toys for years. I have watched the market go up and down over and over. It's all the same.
Fancy new morphs become old hat.
A butter stripe was worth 300 last year sure...but for example...its only worth 100 now. Why?
Not because one person lowered the price. Because 50 more breeders produced them. For gods sake they have one at my local pet store now! It's amazing how fast big morphs go from being rare to everywhere.
The Terressas are a great example. Sure they are getting a grand now. But if they are co-dom then in 3/4 years the market will flood with them and they will probably only get 300. 2 more years and you can pick up one for 100 bucks (I am so getting one).
It's the same thing will ball pythons or anything else in this world.
Supply and Demand. More supply of high end morphs...less demand because people have them or don't have the money yet. So you sell cheaper to raise demand. This is like 8th grade studies.
I collected My Little Pony toys for years. I have watched the market go up and down over and over. It's all the same.
KJUN
Well-known member
Well said. The one thing I wanted to add, however, is that snake markets don't generally go up (plastic pony markets may). I can't think of any recessive mutations that have increased in price if you exclude the accidents like the first ultras and lavas being considered hypoA and such. I mean average prices, of course. Granted, the bottom end prices might bump up a little with inflation, but that isn't really a price increase.
The only morphs that repeatedly HAVE increased are selectively bred ones. They have never been REAL expensive, but they have made some headway: bloods are more than they used to me, GOOD Okeetees have definitely increased in price, candycanes have seen no real decrease, etc. WHY? Because these are harder to make. They take more time and dedication. You need 2 from the same lineage or you produce inferior babies or unpredictable babies. The easier it is to produce, the faster the price will drop. Here is the kicker: the first ones in the door STILL are the ones to make the most money! The idea isn't to buy a snake expecting it to be worth the same amount in 5 years - the idea is to make a profit and move on to the NEXT morph in today's marketplace. If you guess right, you make money. If you guess wrong, you lose money. ...wait...that sounds like any other enterprise.....lol.
The only place the Pony example falls down is that they don't breed and they aren't making any more 1984 examples....lol. In snakes, the better your sales are today, the more competitors you have in 2 years! You customers are your best competitors, and they often end up with better quality than you have unless you always aggressively hold back the best keepers year after year! Once you sell a plastic pony, you don't have it so you aren't competing with a sale of THAT pony. You make more baby snakes the next year, though. Maybe this means I was wrong earlier. Maybe a breeder with 700 females CAN stay in business...as long as they have a complete rollover of their stock every 4 years or something and almost always guess right on the next morph that will make them money. Maybe.
CrazyCorn
D'oh
KJUN you just made the most sense I have seen in this whole thread in regards to the market structure. I beleive this is how things have been in pretty much any Herp morph market but people seemed to have forgotten that. New morphs can only hold their prices for so long I have seen a $1000 snake drop down to $200 in just 2-3 years, hell Rich used create something from his back room projects or maybe something new would pop up but I could almost guarantee the next year after introduction at $1000-1500 that morph would be listed half off or close to it. That is part of the reason breeders for years have hunted for that new gene or tryed to create that new morph nobody had done yet. I believe to really be competitive in any herp morph market you have to try and stay ahead by creating that new combo that catches peoples eyes and will sell for a decent price for the next 4-5 years or maybe more, and in that time slot is when you work on your other projects to bring them to fruition. IMHO from what I have seen the breeders that do the best are the ones that stay on the cutting edge and gamble on the industry future or take the Walmart route and rule by numbers.
Camby
He will join us or die
No they don't, I am as guilty as the next person, by human nature, the most of us offer what we think is the lowest amount possible to still get the animal we want. Maybe you walk right up to the tables or email the breeders on every purchase and just say "here is my (insert amount) for the snake, you will notice sir, it is the exact asking price, pleasure doing buisness with you". If so, kudoz, I wish you could rub off on everyone, me included, I am just not that saintly.
Uhhhh, have you even done the math on the projected 50 animals? Lets use an average of your pricesso say I sell 50 animals at $12.50 each, that is $625for our base, now here are the cost and time associated. This is an average, maybe sometimes it is a little more, sometimes a little less, but his is approximately what it takes to hatch and get these snakes out the door with local taxes on materials purchased (I rounded up or down). I will say that the rack cost is debatable to some, but I don't like having stacked delis around so I have (3) racks that hold 25 shoe boxes just for the hatclings. Sometimes they are full, sometimes not, so I have figured the cost of one for this example.
Vermiculite $5.00
Orchid Moss $7.00
50 Shoe box Containers $65.00
Hatchling Rack $150.00
25 Shipping Boxes (assume pairs) $95.00
Fuel for all activities (this is a low) $25.00
Power Bill $5.00
Rodents (average of 3 per) $31.00
that is $383.00 in costs. Take that from the $625.00 I just made and I have $242.00 left for my time. FedEx is 35 minutes away (one way), so let's say I manage to sell them so that I only have to make 10 trips (probably way low but...). That would be 6 hours of driving. I will spend aproximately 8 hours a week watering, cleaning and feeding these guys for 5 weeks so that is 40 hours for that activity and we are done. Now, let's see how much I am making per hour on $12.50 per animal. That leaves a grand total of $5.26 per hour. Sounds great huh????? Take out the rack and I am still only making $8.17 per hour. Remind me not to hire you as my companies CFO.
Explain how it is the only factor. Everytime a snake is sold no matter who the breeder is, then you are selling a competitor for 2 years down the road. Say you buy a high end pair from SMR or RichZ for $1,000. Two years later you are ready to sell 15 babies. Problem is, no one really knows who the hell you are so you can't sell yours for $500 each, BUT, if you advertise them for $250, you will get buyers and now SMR and Serpenco has just lost the potential of 15 sales. Make sense? So don't tell me the economy is the only reason slaes are suffering. Truth is, no one really knows me wither and I couldn't sell stripes or motley albinos for $15 each. People are offering $50 for a pair shipped, thats about $7.50 per snake for a striped or motley albino het caramel and other traits. You can like it or not, I really do not care, but that IS a waste of my time. That money would be gone after buying a box, spending time to get to FedEx, matter of fact, it would COST me money to "sell" them at that price. You want to do it, be my guest, it is a hobby to me, but I am not in the hobby to loose my money. Obviously you aren't married with kids or you would not have ever suggested I loose money. I am sure my wife can explain this better if you like.
KJ is right, people have to re-think how they market and sell animals, but that doesn't mean that I am going to give my animals away at the expense of hurting my friends who are into this more than I am.
INCORRECT...Rich is retiring, he may not be complaining, but I would be willing to bet that slouching sales over the last 4-5 years has something to do with it. If he was making money hand over fist and it wassn't an issue, then he could go out and hire trust worthy employees and pay them good saleries to okeep the buisness going and he and his wife sit back and rack in the profits left. Search through his retirement post. He has said his health and not being able to find decent help is causing the retirement. Again, read KJ's post, he says pretty much the same thing. To really make alot of money you have to have good employees, larger buildings and large amounts of animals to sell enough $15 animals to make a good profit.
I am not sure you understand supply and demand and other basic economical principals. Oh, and for the record, you can assume what you want, I really don't care what you think of me. BUT, tell you what, since you are so concerned about animals, why don't you just buy all my animals for $10 each and then you can sell them all for $15 and make a good profit. Sound good to you? I may not be a big name and likely never will, but I have been in this industry for 15 years now, I have a good idea of how it trends.
I am done with this thread, it really concerns me that people like you vote in our elections. Sorry for any grammatical or spelling errors but I am not proofing this one.
dc
Michael823
New member
I see all of your points, and as far as price drops I understand. But as his analogy of someone offering $15 for an amel stripe, and he finds it offensive compared to the value he sees fit, than yeah, I would say it's soley due to the economy. Most people at shows have no clue what most morphs run, they just have a budget, and will try to fit it as closely as they can. Most likely if someone is offering $15 for an amel stripe, than it's because that's all they can afford, not because their predicting price drops in particular morphs.
I think the morph industry was bound to decrease at some point, but the rapid acceleration is in my opinion due to the economy. It's not just the Corn snakes that are being sold cheaply on line and at shows, it's every snake.
I occasionally watch my grandmothers table at art shows, and it sounds exactly the same as with snake breeders. People are now more vocal about seeing things they want, and having it priced too high to afford, so they make relatively low ball offers to fit their budget. I have no place in changing the prices for my grandmother, but when she's there there at the table she'll sometimes take offers.
It's understanding that money has to come from somewhere, and sitting on a golden egg to hatch will most likely not pan out. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, and you make perfect sense in your other factors. Perhaps "the ONLY factor" was a bold statement, but reading that entire post kind of felt like listening to someone who wants an oompa loompa now, and in this economy you'd be better served evolving with it.
Silvergrin
New member
I think my only huge concern is if there will ever be a point when more corns are simply... not wanted. Where there are so many being produced that there are more available than can find homes. Because while I don't necessarily care so much about the prices (as long as I can afford them! On both ends) I do care that I'm not producing outright unwanted animals. But breeding is a lot of the fun of corns for me - I love the genetics and variation and doing shows - and without that aspect I would probably only have two or three, not 20 XD
Personally I would prefer to see the market shift towards small hobbiest breeders and away from huge producers. And I'm NOT thinking of anyone here (especially not Rich!), but rather the people I hear about who just produce thousands of snakes for the big pet companies. IDK what those places are like but I think pets ought to be produced by critters that are at least somewhat considered pets by their breeders. The idea of mass produced pets just rubs me wrong :/
On the pricing note, I don't get insulted by low offers, unless the person then turns around and gives me a PREMIUM quote if I inquire on something. Be generous with me, I will be generous with you. Try to take me for a ride, no dice. It's all in the attitude, really. Only once has someone rankled me, dude offered to buy any snakes I was willing to sell for $8/each (this was 5 years ago, so, fairly low-end wholesale for started animals) I said I'd keep it in mind. Then he offered me a VIRGIN 300g butter female for $300 - he kept stressing VIRGIN as a good thing. Well $300 was not a ridiculous sum for an adult butter female at that time, but between his lowball offer and the way he was stressing VIRGIN as a selling point (yes, really) I got a bit cheeky in my response. Didn't hear back from him, and I'm not sorry to this day!
Personally I would prefer to see the market shift towards small hobbiest breeders and away from huge producers. And I'm NOT thinking of anyone here (especially not Rich!), but rather the people I hear about who just produce thousands of snakes for the big pet companies. IDK what those places are like but I think pets ought to be produced by critters that are at least somewhat considered pets by their breeders. The idea of mass produced pets just rubs me wrong :/
On the pricing note, I don't get insulted by low offers, unless the person then turns around and gives me a PREMIUM quote if I inquire on something.
Be generous with me, I will be generous with you. Try to take me for a ride, no dice. It's all in the attitude, really. Only once has someone rankled me, dude offered to buy any snakes I was willing to sell for $8/each (this was 5 years ago, so, fairly low-end wholesale for started animals) I said I'd keep it in mind. Then he offered me a VIRGIN 300g butter female for $300 - he kept stressing VIRGIN as a good thing. Well $300 was not a ridiculous sum for an adult butter female at that time, but between his lowball offer and the way he was stressing VIRGIN as a selling point (yes, really) I got a bit cheeky in my response. Didn't hear back from him, and I'm not sorry to this day!
Camby
He will join us or die
I said I was through with this post but I forgot to reply to this one. You are right, I am wrong for not caring about all morphs just because I do not like them. Thanks for changing my prospective. Dang you for making me a better person, lol....
And for the record, I like gray snakes also. Sunkissed for the most part do nothing for me, but I really like the sunkissed anery ALOT and I like the "gray" bloodred and ultramel morphs. Plus I can't wait to prove out if my "Keys" female is het charcoal or not. That Charcoal Terrazzo Don produced a few years ago is freaking awesome. So I share your pain, no love for the gray snakes from the masses.
thanks again.
dc