stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

DMong said:

That's a fabulous example of why it is a complete waste of time bothering to explain. Thanks for making the great illustration........


~Doug

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That's what some people think of your ideas too, I guess it goes both ways?
I guess God will set us straight one day, but until then we can only agree or disagree, or wait you might have a third option?

Gerards, I envy you, I've never had the chance to do off shore fishing (or any salt water fishing for that matter) let alone catch a monster like that. It gets cold here in the winter but I also fish year round.

Gelshark, that was freakin' sweet!

Ryan Beatty said:

Gerards, I envy you, I've never had the chance to do off shore fishing (or any salt water fishing for that matter) let alone catch a monster like that. It gets cold here in the winter but I also fish year round.

Gelshark, that was freakin' sweet!

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Ryan, it's good to live in south Florida.

Gelshark, you are the kind of person not even worth responding too.

Doug, you know you and I are on the same page. You can't teach them all...

Gerards said:

Ryan, it's good to live in south Florida.

Gelshark, you are the kind of person not even worth responding too.

Doug, you know you and I are on the same page. You can't teach them all...

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We can't all catch big fish, I can only catch trout...

Which one of the scientific facts that I listed is false?

Why is hybridizing wrong ethically and inbreeding not?
I do not know any human beings (although I speculate there are a few that do exist) that think it is okay for a man and an ape to be together (or any other kind of animal), nor do I know any that think it's okay for a man to be with his sister or cousins, mom, aunts or grandmother or daughter even. Yet in the animal world inbreeding is smiled upon, while hybridizing is frowned upon.

While I think that it would be critical to maintain a hybrid free line of animals if you are planning on re-introducing them into nature, I do not think the same standard needs to be upheld with animals that are kept outside of nature. I understand the desire of many to have pure bred lines, and I do not think you are stupid for wanting to have such, but I also understand that others do not share your sentiment, and the fact that there are many keepers out there that can't tell a garter snake from an anaconda, and out of their ignorance create hybrids and label them as non-hybrids. No, that shouldn't be done, but we can't police every tom, dick and harry out there. There are bigger fish to fry (like world peace, hunger, and people that don't have access to big fishing boats). Your opinion might be different than mine, and you are entitled to it, just as I am entitled to mine. But to use your own words ...

Gerards said:

don't get mad when people criticize you for it

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Up until now I have not even stated my true opinions when I have posted, just merely pointing out that many disagree with you for various reasons.

Am I right? Am I wrong? I'm neither, because there is no right or wrong here, just people's opinions. There are no universal truths here, just people's opinions.

And just to let you know the only reason why I hate you (and it's not really hate, it's jealousy) is because you have a big fishing boat and I do not. Hey, one last question, what would you do if you caught a Tiger Muskie?

gelshark said:

We can't all catch big fish, I can only catch trout...

Which one of the scientific facts that I listed is false?

Why is hybridizing wrong ethically and inbreeding not?
I do not know any human beings (although I speculate there are a few that do exist) that think it is okay for a man and an ape to be together (or any other kind of animal), nor do I know any that think it's okay for a man to be with his sister or cousins, mom, aunts or grandmother or daughter even. Yet in the animal world inbreeding is smiled upon, while hybridizing is frowned upon.

While I think that it would be critical to maintain a hybrid free line of animals if you are planning on re-introducing them into nature, I do not think the same standard needs to be upheld with animals that are kept outside of nature. I understand the desire of many to have pure bred lines, and I do not think you are stupid for wanting to have such, but I also understand that others do not share your sentiment, and the fact that there are many keepers out there that can't tell a garter snake from an anaconda, and out of their ignorance create hybrids and label them as non-hybrids. No, that shouldn't be done, but we can't police every tom, dick and harry out there. There are bigger fish to fry (like world peace, hunger, and people that don't have access to big fishing boats). Your opinion might be different than mine, and you are entitled to it, just as I am entitled to mine. But to use your own words ...

Up until now I have not even stated my true opinions when I have posted, just merely pointing out that many disagree with you for various reasons.

Am I right? Am I wrong? I'm neither, because there is no right or wrong here, just people's opinions. There are no universal truths here, just people's opinions.

And just to let you know the only reason why I hate you (and it's not really hate, it's jealousy) is because you have a big fishing boat and I do not. Hey, one last question, what would you do if you caught a Tiger Muskie?

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First, you listed no scientific facts.

Hybridizing and inbreeding is very different. In humans they a both wrong because people think it is, at least I hope they all do. Inbreeding in the animal world(nature) is not frowned upon or uncommon by a lot of species. Hybridizing and natural integration is very different too. Very small portions of species ranges overlap with others to create these zones. Making something up in captivity is not the same thing.

I do not know anyone private that maintains their collection in the hope of releasing those animal to the wild. I'm sorry you have low standards but you can't blame people that don't know. You make the hybrids too, on purpose, and you know the difference. You say, I label mine correctly and register my animals and take every precaution. Then you sell them to people that do not, to people that have no respect. That's ok with you, your making money, having fun, so who cares, right? What bigger fish is there to fry? You justify your actions then put down your costumers, why are they the ignorant ones? Which is worse, not knowing the difference, or knowing and not caring? I am not mad about anyone criticizing me, it's the ignorance and pseudo justification that bothers me. World peace, hunger, me fishing, what are you doing about any of those? What's your big fish?

Are you right? Are you wrong? Yes!

There most defiantly is a right and wrong and you are both. You are entitled to your opinion. You stand back and enjoy your time without thinking past what you need out of it. It good to be free! The problem is there are truths but everyone only cares about their opinions.

FYI, it's cheaper to charter a boat than to own one. It's pretty easy to find one. If I caught one of those fish you mentioned, I would eat it.

I wish I had a Big Truck. To pull a boat. And go herping in. & stuff.

Let me just settle this real quick so we can all be done with it. There's nothing wrong with keeping and breeding hybrids. Sorry it took me so long to set everyone straight-I probably could've saved you all a lot of time if I'd spoken up sooner.

LOL totally off topic. But hubby actually got kicked out of Florida College because he would go fishing in the gulf and not do his homework or come back to the dorm late.

Gerards said:

First, you listed no scientific facts.

Hybridizing and inbreeding is very different. In humans they a both wrong because people think it is, at least I hope they all do. Inbreeding in the animal world(nature) is not frowned upon or uncommon by a lot of species. Hybridizing and natural integration is very different too. Very small portions of species ranges overlap with others to create these zones. Making something up in captivity is not the same thing.

I do not know anyone private that maintains their collection in the hope of releasing those animal to the wild. I'm sorry you have low standards but you can't blame people that don't know. You make the hybrids too, on purpose, and you know the difference. You say, I label mine correctly and register my animals and take every precaution. Then you sell them to people that do not, to people that have no respect. That's ok with you, your making money, having fun, so who cares, right? What bigger fish is there to fry? You justify your actions then put down your costumers, why are they the ignorant ones? Which is worse, not knowing the difference, or knowing and not caring? I am not mad about anyone criticizing me, it's the ignorance and pseudo justification that bothers me. World peace, hunger, me fishing, what are you doing about any of those? What's your big fish?

Are you right? Are you wrong? Yes!

There most defiantly is a right and wrong and you are both. You are entitled to your opinion. You stand back and enjoy your time without thinking past what you need out of it. It good to be free! The problem is there are truths but everyone only cares about their opinions.

FYI, it's cheaper to charter a boat than to own one. It's pretty easy to find one. If I caught one of those fish you mentioned, I would eat it.

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scientific fact number 1 seedless watermelons are hybridized

scientific fact number 2 some breeds of dogs are so inbred that many of those breeds have so little genetic diversity that if they were wild populations they would be considered doomed to extinction by ecologists

The fish I mention is one that is a hybrid, it is specfically bred and released by the division of wildlife (luckily enough as with most hybrids, they are sterile)

And to clear the record, (and although when you say "you" I am assuming you are speaking in general terms and not just singling me out, but correct me if I am wrong) I have yet to make any hybrids, sell any hybrids as far as I know all of my collection is as pure as anyone of Doug's animals.

I notice that you call my standards low, but you do not say that your standards are high. Who is it that decided which are the low standards and which are the high standards?

As far as my big fish... Every month I donate $40.00-$50.00 to help feed those that struggle to put food on their table. It isn't much, (it does make a difference to one or two people maybe) but maybe if I didn't I could save enough to charter a boat once in a while (and I'm not judging you, for all I know you donate an even greater percentage of your income to the same causes and still have plenty of money left over to charter a whole fleet for weeks at a time, I'm not in that type of situation although I would love to be). Heck if these hybrids are such money grabbers then maybe I should make some and put all the proceeds to help those that go hungry. You did get me on the world peace thing though, I am a pot stirrer, I'll get no peace prize soon.

I do not expect anyone to share my ideas.
One new question, if hybridizing animals is wrong, unless it occurs naturally, why then are mules exceptions to that rule?

gelshark said:

scientific fact number 1 seedless watermelons are hybridized

scientific fact number 2 some breeds of dogs are so inbred that many of those breeds have so little genetic diversity that if they were wild populations they would be considered doomed to extinction by ecologists

The fish I mention is one that is a hybrid, it is specfically bred and released by the division of wildlife (luckily enough as with most hybrids, they are sterile)

And to clear the record, (and although when you say "you" I am assuming you are speaking in general terms and not just singling me out, but correct me if I am wrong) I have yet to make any hybrids, sell any hybrids as far as I know all of my collection is as pure as anyone of Doug's animals.

I notice that you call my standards low, but you do not say that your standards are high. Who is it that decided which are the low standards and which are the high standards?

As far as my big fish... Every month I donate $40.00-$50.00 to help feed those that struggle to put food on their table. It isn't much, (it does make a difference to one or two people maybe) but maybe if I didn't I could save enough to charter a boat once in a while (and I'm not judging you, for all I know you donate an even greater percentage of your income to the same causes and still have plenty of money left over to charter a whole fleet for weeks at a time, I'm not in that type of situation although I would love to be). Heck if these hybrids are such money grabbers then maybe I should make some and put all the proceeds to help those that go hungry. You did get me on the world peace thing though, I am a pot stirrer, I'll get no peace prize soon.

I do not expect anyone to share my ideas.
One new question, if hybridizing animals is wrong, unless it occurs naturally, why then are mules exceptions to that rule?

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Scientific facts 1 and 2 have nothing to do with the topic. Neither does the fish but I like that one. Yes, "you" was a general term including you and any one sharing your thoughts. That's very nice that you donate to help starving people. I'm glad you take the time and effort to help folks in need.

Yes, I do not share your ideas.

Yes, doug has some awesome animals.

Your last question again, has nothing to do with the topic. You can't compare what breeding hybrid snakes does to other hybrids that are useful. There are some that serve purpose, the reptiles only serve you. The very thought you had was, I might do it to make money....even though you said you would donate it. It still hurts captive populations of snakes that would be very hard to get back.

Gerards said:

Scientific facts 1 and 2 have nothing to do with the topic. Neither does the fish but I like that one. Yes, "you" was a general term including you and any one sharing your thoughts. That's very nice that you donate to help starving people. I'm glad you take the time and effort to help folks in need.

Yes, I do not share your ideas.

Yes, doug has some awesome animals.

Your last question again, has nothing to do with the topic. You can't compare what breeding hybrid snakes does to other hybrids that are useful. There are some that serve purpose, the reptiles only serve you. The very thought you had was, I might do it to make money....even though you said you would donate it. It still hurts captive populations of snakes that would be very hard to get back.

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Your pictures of the sweet awesome fish that you have caught have nothing to do with the topic either, but I still enjoyed seeing them. Thanks for sharing and illustrating that it is okay for you to be off original topic and not me. I must be some type of hybrid for the rules that you go by not to apply to me?

And sorry that if I were to do that it would be because I value human life more than captive bred populations of snake.

I do love the double standards and the Holier than Thou attitude. Where's the popcorn?

Susan said:

I do love the double standards and the Holier than Thou attitude. Where's the popcorn?

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What double standards? The pics are for entertainment. What picture would you like? I do not keep corms.

gelshark said:

Your pictures of the sweet awesome fish that you have caught have nothing to do with the topic either, but I still enjoyed seeing them. Thanks for sharing and illustrating that it is okay for you to be off original topic and not me. I must be some type of hybrid for the rules that you go by not to apply to me?

And sorry that if I were to do that it would be because I value human life more than captive bred populations of snake.

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Sell crack, you will make and save more.

Gerards said:

I'm just waiting for someone to say something otherwise. I'm not talking about corn snakes only, it's all snakes that I think about. You can repeat the same old over and over but you still sound the same. To think that the majority of people think that way just backs up what I said. You can't make someone stop doing something they want, it's not what I want at all. I agree, things change, there's always going to be the left and the right. You seem to have no problem with it, maybe one day YOU will change your mind. Your also right about me keeping my stuff the way it comes. Just like I will always oppose and you will defend. I have a feeling it would be easier talking politics with each other. Good luck with your animals.
Goodnight

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I am saying otherwise, I am not greedy (I loose money on breeding any of my snakes), lazy (I celan up after my hybrids, I feed them), uneducated (I know about evolution, subspecies, genes, inheritance through generations, probably even more than the average snake keeper) but I do breed some hybrids. What do you have to say about that? And of course I keep repeating my questions if they are not answered. I have a feeling you are the one who is not open to true discussion about the subject, since you do not seem to want to explain why there is a problem to begin with we should all worry about. I am not saying breeding hybrids is better than breeding pure species, I'm just saying I do not see the harm caused by it, except a change in the hobby snake population, which the majority of keepers and breeders care about way less than you do. But you do not seem to understand that there is no right or wrong, there are just several goals to choose if you start breeding snakes. As long as the goal does not endanger the health and well being of the snakes involved, there is no right or wrong.

Still no explanation why exactly I should change my mind.... except just because you think it is the only way to go.

Further, I do not think the only way to breed interesting animals is crossing an hybridization, unlike Gerard and Doug who seem to think that only breeding pure species is interesting and the only good way to exercise this hobby. I do understand that breeding pure, rare species and localities can be a purpose of your hobby, seeing the specific differences, knowing they look exactly the same as their wild cousins (at least as the pure ones in the wild, not like the natural occuring hybdrids). I just did not choose that purpose, like you did not choose to breed hybrids. So, purists provide purists with the same goals as yours with animals, other people provide provide the rest.

To be honest, I started wondering meanwhile if people who are so strongly against mixing subspecies/localities in snakes, what do they think about mixing 'localities' (Asian, African, Caucasian) in people.....? I expect they will deny applying the same values to humankind, but why do they have such strong believes about animals (in a population separated from the wild) than? I have a hard time believing they just would not care about locality people being mixed up, wiping pure specimen from the earth... I am serious about that, not trying to stir the pot.

Why are emotions running so high? Anyone wanting to avoid hybrids will take steps to do so, anyone wanting them will be grateful that some breeders produce 'em. Neither stance is inherently superior, it's a personal choice. Here's the smallest fish I've caught so far.............

There's nothing "natural" or "pure" about a captive bred group of anything, snakes or something else. Raising my locality specific Okeetee corns snakes in plastic boxes on a heated bookshelf wasn't any different than my ultramel based corns. Both are captive bred animals for someones personal enjoyment. I like to go out in Nature with my camera to really enjoy "pure" stuff where they are "naturally"

Gerards said:

Sell crack, you will make and save more.

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Selling crack (both the drug and the body part) are illegal. Last time I checked selling hybrid snakes is not. If you and a few others that think that it should become illegal can get the laws passed, then I will be more than happy to advocate for the punishment of those that do not adhere to that law.

Also, last time I checked selling drugs was not anywhere close to the original topic of this thread, but I am fine that you bring up the comparisons. I bring up comparisons that at least have to do with hybridization and I am told not to do so because they do not relate to the topic being discussed hmm, "Hey kettle, you are looking really black today," said the pot.

I think this debate has gone about as far as it can. Some agree with making hybrids others disagree. We live in a free country and we all have that right.

I think we should all go fishing.

Ryan Beatty said:

I think this debate has gone about as far as it can. Some agree with making hybrids others disagree. We live in a free country and we all have that right.

I think we should all go fishing.

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Agreed, except for the thinking I hate other races part. I hate everyone equally! I said it many times, it's your right. If you can't beat them, wait for them to disappear. You fly down here and I will show you some bass fishing.