Tessera Debate

I know,I know...broken record right? But............don't you really want to know? I know I sure as hell do. I wouldn't mind having one. I am one that can actually afford to get a pair. But,at the same time..i'm holding my breath waiting for one day a sticky will be posted somewhere with actual proof. Until that day comes,well I'll stick to the morphs that been around a lil while. Someone,anyone please give your thoughts. Your thoughts exactly. Well,give your thought when you 1st heard about the tessera and give your thoughts now.

Honestly, if it had been some back woods breeder who introduced these and put them on the market I might have questioned it - but coming from Don, KJ and Graham - three highly respected members of the cornsnake community, I trust and believe that they have done the work and research to advertise these as true cornsnakes and not hybrids. I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure KJ especially has issues with hybrids not being labeled correctly so I would imagine if he had the slightest doubt about these that he would not be working with them or advertising them as pure cornsnakes.

I agree with what Katie stated. There is no big conspiracy going on. All the people involved with the project are exceptionally open about everything they know/believe about the morph. If you have doubts talk to anyone of them and they will happily answer any of your questions. And like anything out there until we can take the animal apart at a genetic level, who is to say what is pure corn snake. And at this point in the game is there really any true example out there of "pure"?
Decide if you want the morph or not and move on from there.
Terri

I'm going with Don Soderberg's statement "Other than appearance, all physiology is classically cornsnake, though the pattern complex resembles that of other species (including pattern mutations in other species). Arguably, no obvious (or cryptic) hybrid markers have been observed."

My first thought was "Wow, that's cool, I don't understand it, looks like a garter snake." My thoughts now are "I wish there would have been a "super" form, and the color morphs are really cool."

Not directed at you, Whotty, but it seems like every time something new appears, people are so quick to credit it to hybridization, with no proof of such. I'll be glad when snake DNA testing is commonplace.

If the original Tesseras had been hybrids, exactly _what_ would have produced them??

What exactly would they be a hybrid of anyway? I have never seen any hybrids bred that give such uniform and expected patterns when bred together or into other Sub/Species. I laughed at the last thread that people were barking about hybrids because they claimed that some how someone bred a NEW WORLD Ratsnake with an OLD WORLD obscure Ratsnake species that shares a similar pattern trait. Not only is it impossible/unproven to cross an old/new world species but one as obscure as they claimed was ridiculous.

Not to be rude but if your worried about murky Corn genetics then you should probably look into another hobby because Emoryi and Obsoleta have been heavily bred into the current genetic stock either by accident or malice. I gave up caring a while ago after seeing how many intergrades were mislabeled and resold. I cringe everytime I see any 'Cream' variety being sold.

I don't really think there is much debate. I trust the breeders who have introduced the tessera. I think they have the background and knowledge to stand behind their observations. I know there are some who are skeptical, that's your right. It's also your choice how long you want to wait before coming to your own conclusions. If there is a debate to be had, I'd like to hear from the OP anything they find contradictory to Don's, KJ's and Graeme's findings.

I am open to the idea that they MAY be hybrids, but so far, I haven't seen any evidence for that theory.

I agree with Vicky, but I highly doubt the breeders originally involved would have intentionally passed off hybrids. If there is some contribution of some species other than guttata, it is entirely UNKNOWN to Don, KJ & Graham. At some point DNA sequencing will be cheap & easy & someone will settle it.

Could care less if they are hybrids.. I still don't know how the heck anyone can test for hybridism... *shrugs* Even if they were, how you going to prove it out??

CrazyCorn said:

What exactly would they be a hybrid of anyway? I have never seen any hybrids bred that give such uniform and expected patterns when bred together or into other Sub/Species. I laughed at the last thread that people were barking about hybrids because they claimed that some how someone bred a NEW WORLD Ratsnake with an OLD WORLD obscure Ratsnake species that shares a similar pattern trait. Not only is it impossible/unproven to cross an old/new world species but one as obscure as they claimed was ridiculous.
...

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Uh yeah, that's not correct. Many crosses have been done between corns and old world rats. The striped Leopard rat was not that uncommon, 7-10 years ago. (I believe that's what some were saying it was crossed with?)
Here is a link ...http://www.herpcenter.com/colubrids-general/18615-lampropeltini-tribe-info-needed.html

Nanci said:

I'm going with Don Soderberg's statement "Other than appearance, all physiology is classically cornsnake, though the pattern complex resembles that of other species (including pattern mutations in other species). Arguably, no obvious (or cryptic) hybrid markers have been observed."...

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If they were not hybrids, then why not openly introduce the original breeder of the original stock?
1. Because this person may ask for a cut of the profits?
2. Because this person could still breed there own?
OR...
3. Because this person could tell the animals actual heritage?
Wouldn't this end any and all debate?

abell82 said:

If they were not hybrids, then why not openly introduce the original breeder of the original stock?
1. Because this person may ask for a cut of the profits?
2. Because this person could still breed there own?
OR...
3. Because this person could tell the animals actual heritage?
Wouldn't this end any and all debate?

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OR
4. The original person sold the animals to Graham and KJ because he was getting out of the hobby. And he thought they were a weird form of the stripe gene.
No conspiracy. Just ask the original people who noticed the oddity and acted on it. Like many people before this have stated it was Graham and KJ who bought the original animals. They then brought Don into the mix and the three of them test bred the animals. All of this info is out in the public forums and any one of those original people will more than happily tell the story of how it was discovered.


Terri

Whoty- see my website for their history: www.scexotics.com Tesseras aren't hybrids.... As stated so many times on this board and others- people will always "trash" a new morph calling it a hybrid...Ask Rich Z- I'm sure it's happened to him many times over the years... Reasons why- who knows...you pick it: jealousy? inexperience in the hobby? trolling? abell82- You'll understand one day IF you ever introduce anything new into the hobby.

The POSITIVE response we've seen for the Tesseras (and now the Tessera morphs) has been amazing and well worth it.

Graham

My take on it (take it for what it's worth)

There are these debates in EVERY species that humans have decided to breed. There are the "elite" that believe themselves to be superior, or wish they were, or want to be, and someone else likes something not "normal" that they have tried to breed out, or that they dismissed that someone else was sucessful with, and all of a sudden people are throwing labels "puppy mill" "crossbreed" "mutt" "Backyard breeder"

These are all common terms used to label people and destroy reputations when really the reality doesn't matter.

Most registries consider an animal "purebred" after five documented generations of verifiable pedigree. After that, they are pretty much genetically unidentifiable from their "purebred" counterparts. In establishing new breed often there are several breeds in the mix, and in SOME breeds, particularly in cats, you are allowed to outcross to other breeds or even use unregistered animals when establishing a new line.

So, my opinion on it, could it have origonated as a hybrid? Possibly
Does it make one darn whit of difference? Hell no, at least, not now, and not anytime soon

I think it is a fascinating gene sequence, and a really COOL addition to the cornsnake genetic pool

(just one newbies opinion, well new to corn snakes, certainly not new to breeding!!)

crackerhead said:

OR
4. The original person sold the animals to Graham and KJ because he was getting out of the hobby. And he thought they were a weird form of the stripe gene.
No conspiracy. Just ask the original people who noticed the oddity and acted on it. Like many people before this have stated it was Graham and KJ who bought the original animals. They then brought Don into the mix and the three of them test bred the animals. All of this info is out in the public forums and any one of those original people will more than happily tell the story of how it was discovered.


Terri

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Thanks Terri! Sorry guys- no conspiracy... I wish I would have kept the breeders contact info BUT I didn't know they were going to be anything special. I have a large collection... it was years ago and I've moved a few times...any reciept is long gone... my bad. Heck, I had them a few years before be figured out they were something new... I just like okeetees and this was my "striped okeetee" project....

StrangeCargo said:

... abell82- You'll understand one day IF you ever introduce anything new into the hobby.

Graham

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Graham, you should do your homework...
I understand, better then you know, evidently. But, I still see NO difference between Tessera's and the scaleless corn's...
( Except that BHB freely admitts to the scaleless corns ancestry) :cheers:

I said my piece in the other thread. I've had the chance to examine Tessera's up close and personal. In my opinion, definitely not hybrids. Again, I think anyone who cries "HYBRID" right off the bat is just jealous they didn't make the discovery. That's really what it seems to boil down to. Can you imagine what must have been thought when the first lavender's appeared on the market?

CrazyCorn said:

Not only is it impossible/unproven to cross an old/new world species but one as obscure as they claimed was ridiculous.

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False. There's a member on here who has a corn x e. climacophora (Japanese rat).

Maybe if you want your opinion on hybrids taken seriously, you should do some research to see what's actually possible. :shrugs:

I've been to the breeding facilities of two of the three (KJ and Graham), I was there and saw them before they were every even introduced and I've seen the original. This was just a freak gene that slipped through in an odd looking corn and popped up while these guys were working on a completely separate project. They held it back to make sure they could reproduce it and that it wasn't just a freak coincidence, and then they came out when they felt secure in the fact that Tessera was in fact a new gene. They're beautiful animals, they're NOT hybrids, and there's a lot of cool stuff coming in the near future because of this gene. I know I'm excited to be a part of it

abell82 said:

I still see NO difference between Tessera's and the scaleless corn's...

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Hmm- I see a BIG difference between them... one is a genetic pattern mutation and the other is missing most of it's scales
On a serious note: We ALL know that Scaless Corns are actually a CREAMSICLE corn... they are a KNOWN hybrid (the orig. scaleless popped out of a clutch between a Corn X Emoryi).

Don't understand the "you should do your homework" comment... :shrugs:

Do you have Tesseras or Scaleless corns? I DO have Scaleless Corn hets directly from BHB...I've invested in the project... I will sell them for what they are: Scaleless Creamsicle Corns and put the entire history/story on my website.

I know I'm beating a dead horse but if I had any evidence- or felt the slightest uneasiness- of the Tesseras purity, I'd be the first to admit it. I'm an honest guy with nothing to hide...

What Whoty is failing to take into consideration is that Tessera is a single genetic mutation. If it was the result of hybridisation, it wouldn't be a dominant trait, and would not pass down steadily and in such an obviously dominant fashion.

RobbiesCornField said:

I said my piece in the other thread. I've had the chance to examine Tessera's up close and personal. In my opinion, definitely not hybrids. Again, I think anyone who cries "HYBRID" right off the bat is just jealous they didn't make the discovery. That's really what it seems to boil down to.

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I said they may be hybrid. But,why would I be jealous,I'm not trying to make any "discovery".