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Do Motleys ever have belly checkers?

starsevol

starsevol

Cohabbing is cruelty...
I am having a small disagreement with someone who I am sure is a nice guy but is a tad stubborn it seems.
He says that motleys can have belly checkers, as long as they don't have too many. He actually has some really nice ghosts for sale as motleys, but he states that they have about a dozen belly checks on them. I told him that they don't look like motleys to me, and motleys never ever have belly checkers, unless they are sunkissed motleys, and in the case of sunkissed the dorsal pattern is not a typical motley pattern either.

So, do motleys have belly checkers?
Please, as many people answer this as possible.
Thank you :)
 
I have seen a few reputable breeders post a few motleys over the years that had a "few" belly checkers. And by a few - I mean maybe 3 or 4 at most - but they were definately motleys.
 
ArpeggioAngel said:
I have seen a few reputable breeders post a few motleys over the years that had a "few" belly checkers. And by a few - I mean maybe 3 or 4 at most - but they were definately motleys.
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Thank you Katie, I did not know that. Would you say a dozen checkers is a motley though, with a regular saddled dorsal pattern?
 
They don't have to be Sunkissed, just Sunkissed in the mix. Possible het marker?

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I don't think any one can say for 100% certainty that a motley can't have some checks. This year I bred a Caramel Stripe to an Ultramel Mot het caramel stripe. Now, with both parents being homo stripe and mot all babies will be mot/stripes of some form or another. But I did wind up with 2 that had very pronounced belly checks. Not a full belly like a normal but at least 15-20 each. It was really interesting. Wish I would have kept those guys.
 
What does the back of that snake look like, Joe? Not that I'm not sure you're positive it's a motley, if you say it is.
 
Straight out of the Cornsnake Morph Guide:
"The motley trait clears the belly of checkers. Some motleys will have a handful of checkers and many will have black freckles on the belly"

It does also state that sunkissed motley morphs are more known that others to show signs of checkers.

Would you say a dozen checkers is a motley though, with a regular saddled dorsal pattern?
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Honestly, I would say the only way to know for sure would be the parentage. If both parents are homo motley - then the offspring would have to be motley as well. If they are just het - then it gets a little tricky. We all know that motley shows up on the dorsal in varying degrees. If the snake has more than a handful of belly checkers and a normal looking dorsal pattern I would lean towards it not being homo motley....
 
I had a pair of homozygous motleys throw a couple of babies that had a few belly checks. And by a few, I mean maybe 2 or 3 snakes out of a clutch of 15 had at most 2 or 3 checks.

So it's possible. But outside sunkissed, where I believe there are motleys that can be quite heavily checkered, motleys have clear bellies.

I have an anery het lavender motley pair that I've bred several years now, and many of the anery lavenders are "notleys". They have a very motley like dorsal pattern, and only have maybe 10-15 belly checks (>95% clear bellies), but they're not motleys (I'm not sure if its them being het or just something else; ratio of notleys does line up with the 66% poss het but I haven't held any back to test). I get true anery lavender motleys in that clutch and they all have 100% clear bellies.

So, outside of sunkissed lines, if there's more than a check or two, not a motley IMO. Though with everything in life, including corns, there are exceptions. But I know the ad you're referring two, and I tend to agree with you Beth.
 
It is possible for them to have very few belly checkers. Though very uncommon. If there is a lot, I suspect the snake won't have any strong motley markings on the back.
 
I believe, the more we outcross the more we will start witnessing numerous anomalies like belly checkers on mots. This applies to most, if not all genes. Many sunkisseds do not look like the original sunkisseds due to outcrossing. I see plenty of ‘blood reds’ that you couldn’t really call a …. Well, blood red anymore.
I think our research on genes like motley are limited at best right now and we can only speculate at how the gene actually functions. Same with diffusion. Many of the traits we see are not only products of specific genes but are also results of line breeding for a certain visual appearance. How many generations does it take where a blood red isn’t going to look like a blood red anymore? How many until motleys start exhibiting belly checkers and elongated saddles?
 
I have no practical experience, but I would tend to agree with the notion that no one can say with 100% certainty just what any gene can or can not do. The morph guide does say it's possible, for one. That doesn't make his motleys motleys though. (Just saying, as I don't know who you're talking about.)
 
Tara80 said:
I believe, the more we outcross the more we will start witnessing numerous anomalies like belly checkers on mots. This applies to most, if not all genes. Many sunkisseds do not look like the original sunkisseds due to outcrossing. I see plenty of ‘blood reds’ that you couldn’t really call a …. Well, blood red anymore.
I think our research on genes like motley are limited at best right now and we can only speculate at how the gene actually functions. Same with diffusion. Many of the traits we see are not only products of specific genes but are also results of line breeding for a certain visual appearance. How many generations does it take where a blood red isn’t going to look like a blood red anymore? How many until motleys start exhibiting belly checkers and elongated saddles?
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Thank you Tara. You put a really good scientific spin on this. The Blood Red part is so true. I can not tell you how many Bloods I have seen that Just are not Bloods.


ghosthousecorns said:
Here's pics of one I hatched... I don't have him anymore, but he was 100% motley. He had 6 or 7 checks on his belly.
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This is exactly how my Ghost Motleys look. The babies and the mother. The father does not have any checkers thou.


Sweetseraph said:
I have no practical experience, but I would tend to agree with the notion that no one can say with 100% certainty just what any gene can or can not do. The morph guide does say it's possible, for one. That doesn't make his motleys motleys though. (Just saying, as I don't know who you're talking about.)
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I am the one she was talking about. We were talking about my Ghost Motleys. Here is a link to my ad if you would like to see what heated debate we had. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101642
 
Motley's can even have full checkered belly's.
A few years ago I had a Snow Motley female. Came from a Snow Motley x Anery Motley het . Amel.
She had a full checkered belly so I was reluctant to call her a motley even though she had to be due to her parentage. I bred her to my proven Amel Motley male and got all Amel Motley babies with no belly checkers. I bred her about 5 times during those years and all came out as Motley's. So she had to be a homo Motley.
 
Some lines of Motleys can have a few belly checks, much like the one's Joe posted. For years and years I've had those pop up in Banded lines, and now in Sunkissed lines.
 
I've seen checkers on some bellies of some motleys...not many, but I have seen a few checks a few times. I've also seen bald normals from bloodred clutches and patterned heads from those same clutches. I've seen sunkissed without the tell-tale sunkissed markings and amels with some black. It can happen. IN GENERAL, however, the normal look (clear belly motleys, bald head bloods, etc.) is what you most commonly see.
 
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