A Conversation about Libertarianism

[crotalis40741]

Unfortunately puppy mills are a scurge of the south. So many people seeing a way to make quick easy money selling labramutts, snickerdoodles, and putting the C.K.C. on all the mutts they can to sale them at a premium. I was banned at the local flea market from the dog area for calling the woman here a puppy mill. I bred dogs for years and showed in the U.K.C. all pups should come with a health gurantee, vet records, and a way to show they are not inbred. The thing with puppy mills is that most rural areas will not regulate it because of the "good ole boys" syndrome and covering it up with an agricultural blanket to be able to look the other way. OK sorry for the rant, they really strike a nerve with me.

 

[Nova_C]

These are all libertarian ideals. And I'd be remiss not to point out that the left is FAR worse than the right on freedom of speech currently. 20 years ago, you could clump that part in, not any more.

Man, what? Libertarians get to call "MINE" on whatever issues they want?

Liberals have always include a very progressive social outlook. Unless you contend that the majority of Canadians are Libertarians, since gay marriage, freedom of speech, legal abortion and to some extent decriminalization all enjoy majority support in this country. Along with UHC, welfare and public education.

Anyway, The reason I brought up regulations of the pet trade is because there is no reason why there needs to be a knee jerk response to regulation of anything.

Since Kathy is the only one willing to discuss the particulars of Libertarianism, I guess this thread is more open mic now.

 

[Chip]

Man, what? Libertarians get to call "MINE" on whatever issues they want?

No, just freedoms. And frankly it isn't "calling mine" to have an idea you support. Last time I checked, more than one party or group can share an belief. And the left, in the US anyway, is NOT a supporter of free speech, unless they agree with it and don't find it offensive.

Since Kathy is the only one willing to discuss the particulars of Libertarianism, I guess this thread is more open mic now.

I guess she's the only one who hasn't disagreed with you publicly, so you are minimizing the opinions of everyone else? Might as well not even waste my time then. :wavey:

Unfortunately puppy mills are a scurge of the south.

Historically, they have been in the mid-west. Either that has changed, or it must be REALLY bad out there.

 

[Nova_C]

I guess she's the only one who hasn't disagreed with you publicly, so you are minimizing the opinions of everyone else? Might as well not even waste my time then.

The point of this thread was to discuss particulars of libertarian beliefs, especially the ones that differ from liberal beliefs since there is a lot of crossover, and to discuss how the actual implementation of those beliefs might be done. Kathy is the only one to do more than give sound bites. She has talked about why she thinks the way she does, and the kinds of policies that would implement her ideas. If you've done this, well, I totally missed it and you'll need to point it out to me.

No, just freedoms. And frankly it isn't "calling mine" to have an idea you support. Last time I checked, more than one party or group can share an belief. And the left, in the US anyway, is NOT a supporter of free speech, unless they agree with it and don't find it offensive.

Oh, I thought you were saying that since those ideas were libertarian, then they couldn't be liberal. Since you were replying to me saying that libertarians and liberals share a lot of the same beliefs on social issues. With what sounded like a correction.

As far as the 'left' not supporting free speech, well, the 'left' is not some monolithic group of like-minded individuals any more than the 'right' is. I put that in quotations because this thread is a great example of how such designations are a disservice to any side in a debate. It's pretty ridiculous to try to take a single point of view and force it on a massive segment of the population.

 

[Outcast]

Nova, I am still in the point of my life in which I have to try and figure out what side of the fence I am on, on many of the issues. I consider myself Socially liberal, but Fiscally conservative. And, the only party that I have seen that remotely resembles my beliefs on many of the issues is the Libertarian party.

This is a generalization, from someone who is still relatively new to politics. Personally I think all politicians are crooks, but unfortunately they are a necessity.

 

[Nova_C]

Nova, I am still in the point of my life in which I have to try and figure out what side of the fence I am on, on many of the issues. I consider myself Socially liberal, but Fiscally conservative. And, the only party that I have seen that remotely resembles my beliefs on many of the issues is the Libertarian party.

This is a generalization, from someone who is still relatively new to politics. Personally I think all politicians are crooks, but unfortunately they are a necessity.

Yeah, unfortunately modern politics has left us with a conundrum: The people who most want to be president/prime minister are usually the last people you want to actually take that position. Political campaigns are purely about perception now, and not the reality of what the candidate represents. This is not a failing of the political process, though, at least, not to me it's not. It's a failing of how so many people are not simply paying attention. They give politics the lip service of complaints and whining and then they spend a tiny fraction of a percentage of their time educating themselves about what a candidate believes. When it comes time to vote, all that's in their head is whoever came across as more likable, or pandered to their preconceived notions more.

The thing is, the internet is a great tool to hold politicians accountable. The 24 hour news cycle has become instant information proliferation. There's no excuse for us to not know what it is that our representatives are doing.

 

[tsst]

I really can't speak for tsst, but I believe he means that liberals support only those liberties that is part of the left wing ideology while libertarians support ALL liberties and freedom. People deciding whether or not to buy health insurance and second amendment rights are liberties that tend to be supported by the right and not the left.

Exactly! I think nova knew that.

 

[kathylove]

"Yeah, unfortunately modern politics has left us with a conundrum: The people who most want to be president/prime minister are usually the last people you want to actually take that position. Political campaigns are purely about perception now, and not the reality of what the candidate represents..."

Now THAT is something we can agree on! I do believe it is partly because voters are too apathetic or too lazy. BUT - part of the reason for this (IMO) is the poor choices we have. I haven't gotten very excited about either choice in a LONG time! And it is also because of media, and the fact that we have gotten so used to quickie sound bites, and just information overload in general. On top of this, most families are two income producers (except those out of work); much more so than when I was a child. With both parents working and trying to keep up with busy families, I'm afraid the overload sometimes just numbs them to anything other than keeping up with TODAY.

Although I am a proponent of individual responsibility, I do understand and sympathize with busy parents trying to keep up with everything that is important these days.

 

[Lavender]

Home schooling already has a long tradition in this country. It has become a lot more widespread in recent years. Back when we had Glades Herp in the '90s, we had some home school groups come through for tours, so got to talk to some of the parents. They were so much more involved with their kids and in education. It was so refreshing to talk to them compared to many parents of public school kids.

Charity is great! But it wouldn't really take much, if any, charity for a parent to home school their child. It takes time and effort. If they are really poor, the public libraries have computers available for them. (maybe public libraries will remain public, or maybe they will be replaced by community funded libraries in much the same way that HOAs fund community playgrounds. With more and more books and resources available digitally, a small, community library may not cost nearly as much as traditional libraries do).

Many states already have online, free, public school classes available. Maybe at the beginning, these could remain publicly funded, and eventually figure a way for the private sector to take them over. Same with the libraries. I sure don't advocate just dumping every government service all at once. First, get rid of the services that are the least needed and waste the most money. Once we figure out the most efficient way to privately deliver those services, we can tackle other issues. Some of those may need to remain in the public sector if it turns out that is the most efficient way to accomplish those goals, but most could go private eventually.

BTW, home school parents told me that their kids do have to accomplish certain goals each year, and are tested to be sure they are on target.

Home schooling and private schools are not novel ideas, and their students often excel in college compared to public school grads. Only the scope of replacing ALL public schools with them would be novel, and would have to be worked towards one step at a time.

I home school. My kids don't have to learn the lies of yankee history. They don't have to exposed to immoral sex education. No evolution. Theology is the most important subject. No pier pressure crap no having to buy "instyle" cloths or all the tolietries the my tax money should be paying for. The freedom compared to public school is worth it also. And on top of all that, public school is just another form of gov't welfare. People depend on the gov't to raise their kids where they can be free to put their wives in the work place for the purpose of the brick home new cars etc.. All the while they are dependant on the labor of others to raise their kids.

 

[diamondlil]

I home school. My kids don't have to learn the lies of yankee history. They don't have to exposed to immoral sex education. No evolution. Theology is the most important subject. No pier pressure crap no having to buy "instyle" cloths or all the tolietries the my tax money should be paying for. The freedom compared to public school is worth it also. And on top of all that, public school is just another form of gov't welfare. People depend on the gov't to raise their kids where they can be free to put their wives in the work place for the purpose of the brick home new cars etc.. All the while they are dependant on the labor of others to raise their kids.

'Pier pressure'? Please tell me someone else teaches them spelling and grammar. And no evolution? Truly? Not even as an alternative theory of life on Earth? No exposure to alternative thinking?
As a parent, I disagree with some of the views my now-adult sons have, but they can eloquently support their views with reasoned debate, which makes me far more proud than if they were just parroting my views.

 

[Lavender]

Contrary to popular belief n practice, we're not free to sin. Also God holds the father accountable for what is being taught in the home and that goes for wife and children. So, no my children are not taught sin as an alternative form of learning or practice. Example they're not taught exhaustive details about evolution but are taught how sinful it is

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm sorry for your kids. They deserve better.

 

[Chip]

I must spread more rep around, etc.

 

[Outcast]

Contrary to popular belief n practice, we're not free to sin. Also God holds the father accountable for what is being taught in the home and that goes for wife and children. So, no my children are not taught sin as an alternative form of learning or practice. Example they're not taught exhaustive details about evolution but are taught how sinful it is

I too believe what the bible says, but I believe that there is much the bible does not tell us. God wants us to figure stuff out for ourselves, If not he would have told us everything, exactly the way it happened. I personally believe that Evolution is a tool. If it was not, then it would not be happening today.

Basically Evolution is a series of adaptations that have been passed down from one generation to the next, these can be good mutations or bad mutations, from which new creatures come into existence from the old creatures. We see subspecies being formed all the time, a few more adaptations (mutations) that allow them to survive even better in changing environments, can essentially make them changed enough to no longer be recognizable as their original species.

To say that evolution does not exist, is very shortsighted and close minded. I really hope that your children grow up and get out of that mindset in the future. I know it took me a while, but I have finally become my own person who is no longer bound to the beliefs of my family back home.

 

[starsevol]

I home school. My kids don't have to learn the lies of yankee history. They don't have to exposed to immoral sex education. No evolution. Theology is the most important subject. No pier pressure crap no having to buy "instyle" cloths or all the tolietries the my tax money should be paying for. The freedom compared to public school is worth it also. And on top of all that, public school is just another form of gov't welfare. People depend on the gov't to raise their kids where they can be free to put their wives in the work place for the purpose of the brick home new cars etc.. All the while they are dependant on the labor of others to raise their kids.

'Pier pressure'? Please tell me someone else teaches them spelling and grammar. And no evolution? Truly? Not even as an alternative theory of life on Earth? No exposure to alternative thinking?
As a parent, I disagree with some of the views my now-adult sons have, but they can eloquently support their views with reasoned debate, which makes me far more proud than if they were just parroting my views.

Contrary to popular belief n practice, we're not free to sin. Also God holds the father accountable for what is being taught in the home and that goes for wife and children. So, no my children are not taught sin as an alternative form of learning or practice. Example they're not taught exhaustive details about evolution but are taught how sinful it is

I'm sorry for your kids. They deserve better.

I too believe what the bible says, but I believe that there is much the bible does not tell us. God wants us to figure stuff out for ourselves, If not he would have told us everything, exactly the way it happened. I personally believe that Evolution is a tool. If it was not, then it would not be happening today.

Basically Evolution is a series of adaptations that have been passed down from one generation to the next, these can be good mutations or bad mutations, from which new creatures come into existence from the old creatures. We see subspecies being formed all the time, a few more adaptations (mutations) that allow them to survive even better in changing environments, can essentially make them changed enough to no longer be recognizable as their original species.

To say that evolution does not exist, is very shortsighted and close minded. I really hope that your children grow up and get out of that mindset in the future. I know it took me a while, but I have finally become my own person who is no longer bound to the beliefs of my family back home.

I think the entire theory of evolution can be proven if one just looks around their world a little. Evolution can even be proven by reading this thread! If you read parts of this thread, it is immediately obvious which humans have evolved, and which have not.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I must spread more rep around, etc.

I hooked up a few people for you.

The kids don't have to worry about pier pressure, just fish do. I certainly hope he subcontracts a grammar instructor.

 

[Lavender]

I can understand y people
Believe in evolution. One reason they've been taught it so much that they're starting to look, act, n smell like apes

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I can understand y people
Believe in evolution. One reason they've been taught it so much that they're starting to look, act, n smell like apes

So you believe in evolution? I'm just basing that on the nature of your replies.

 

[Outcast]

I can understand y people
Believe in evolution. One reason they've been taught it so much that they're starting to look, act, n smell like apes

Fortunately Apes can learn. Some people are so stuck in their ideals that theology has all of the answers for every issue that will ever arrise, that they have lost the ability to think for themselves...

I'll stick with the apes. They can be used for something.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Fortunately Apes can learn. Some people are so stuck in their ideals that theology has all of the answers for every issue that will ever arrise, that they have lost the ability to think for themselves...

I'll stick with the apes. They can be used for something.

I agree. Apes can also learn to type and express themselves on a near human level.