Coming Out to Friend

[vetusvates]

Hi there. I'd never want to do that. For one, I've had the experience of coming out as gay. I've come "out of the broom closet" as Pagan, too. I'm a gay witch that keeps snakes.

My passion for snakes is a big part of my life, as are my other passions and interests, but I would never elevate them to the emotional and visceral day-to-day struggle we face to survive and thrive in a society that often values "tradition" and false notions of "morality" over living beings. Maybe that's part of why I see the snake as such a great animal, because they too are hated and misunderstood.

Don't meant to ramble; Just wanted to clarify.

DYK, antiochian, thank you for sharing. So many people on the forum lead fascinating 3D lives, you included, and 'time' transpiring makes things 4D. Thank you for sharing beyond just the original post. I think I can safely say you have rambled far less that many of us...lol.

You have received a spectrum of input. From members old and new, all with great points and a variety of wisdoms.
So now you're going to have to keep us informed on how things go.

I think you should congratulate yourself for starting a thread that stimulates thought, the use of language, the sharing of a variety of experiences, and a spirit of fraternity and cohesion, in the midst of immense and healthy diversity, that makes the whole forum 3D, nay, 4-dimensional.

 

[antiochian]

Thanks for the snake advice. There are a multitude of opinions, so I'm going to mull it over and make what decision is best for me. Yes, he's *terrified* of snakes. I've posted FB pics of the snakes, so that should signify something. But I may just let him know, and if he's totally adverse to being near them I'll keep them at a friend's house for the duration. I would never go to these lengths for most people, but this is a good friend of almost a decade.

 

[Michael823]

This was a great discussion. In a round about way, I think the conversation came full circle. Gay, straight, or in-between, we all have barriers that we face, and hills that we have to climb, in order to live a meaningful life of free self-expression. It takes a ridonk amount of courage to say how it is that you feel, and who it is that you are. I give my salutes.

And thank you, OP (antiochian), for allowing the topic to diverge. Another good reminder of why I come to this site (other than the snakes.. cuz that's a gimme).

 

[The Cat]

Having a religious party (and it is not only Christians, but Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.) invading your space by placing flyers on your car, forcing unwanted literature on you or publicly protesting their beliefs is not the same thing at all. Gays "come out" simply to make their sexuality known and to (hopefully) unburden themselves of what had been a secret, not to push it on to others. Religious fanatics DO try to push their beliefs on to others and "save" these "sinners".

I have NEVER encountered a gay person trying to make me gay, but there are thousands (if not millions) of religious people trying to turn gay people into what they are not.

As a Christian you, like everyone else, have every right to your opinion, but you are also making a choice to accept that someone is homosexual and move on, or "bully" gays with words or written material (and, in the extreme, physical abuse) into trying to make them feel ashamed by what is not even their choice.

I respect your opinion, Cat, I am not at all offended by your beliefs or lifestyle, but I hope you aren't offended by others' beliefs or lifestyle. You don't have to like it or accept it, just know that it is what it is.

A Christian's goal shouldn't be to force Chritianity on others, but to offer it. Sadly, some still try to use force, which of course would just push others away.

I hate it when gays are bullied by Christians. It's just rude. We have a right to disagree, but not abuse, verbally or physically.


"Finding a pamphlet on my car's windshield with a load of hogwash about how evil and nasty gay people are and how they are going to burn in hell is offensive (yes, I got one of those pieces of trash stuck to my car a few years ago). Admitting that my family would in fact try to "save me" I cannot fathom how that is offensive. "

Pamphlets like that should never be handed out. Once again, they are rude and push people away. I am very sorry you got something that rude.

 

[Nanci]

I'm Christian. Three of my best gay friends are very devout Christians. I don't know about the others- it doesn't come up much. (I guess I don't know every single one of my straight friends' religious beliefs, either!) As a Christian, I don't give a flying flip about who does what with whom as long as they are consenting adults, and I don't really believe God does, either. It makes me sad that my religion is so stereotyped as narrow-minded. I think the extremists make the rest of us look bad, and we aren't really like that. I bet Muslims say the same thing.

On religion- I'm interested in other religions- I love hearing about different people's beliefs. I think that humankind's belief in some sort of higher power, throughout the centuries, across the world, even in the most primitive of peoples, is pretty much proof that _someone_ had a hand in getting life started here on earth. We all call it someone different, according to how we were raised, or what we felt fit us later in life.

Also- I get tired of Christianity being thought of as unequivocally anti-science. For me- evolution is a fact, not a theory.

But- I don't like arguing about religion. Or defending mine. We all don't believe the same thing- so who cares? Just like our sexuality, it shouldn't matter to anyone else. It's interesting to explore differences in a respectful manner, but not nice to say "I'm right, you're wrong."

 

[vetusvates]

On religion- I'm interested in other religions- I love hearing about different people's beliefs.

Also- I get tired of Christianity being thought of as unequivocally anti-science. For me- evolution is a fact, not a theory.

Ditto...and...ditto.

 

[vetusvates]

I really do wish I'd worded the thread title better. Sorry for that. I know that pain, believe me. I have a sister who since I came out to her (as gay) in 1999 as a teen, has refused to accept me. Last year, an uncle who was visiting confronted me about my "sinful" lifestyle...

The priests of the Greek Orthodox church told me I had two choices--chastity (basically lifelong loneliness) or hell.

I'm better these days, and I've found some amazing friends of all sexual orientations and gender identities that are a bulwark of support. They've helped me heal a lot. Still, I have incredible anger at the church, and at my uncle, and at others who have been quick to point a finger of condemnation when they haven't the fuzziest blessed clue what hell I've been through.

Hope it's okay I shared that. I will say I am so happy that my home state of MN legalized marriage equality. As a scared, lonely teenager in the 90s, I could have never imagined how far we'd come.

Very interesting. I have read about Greek Orthodox, have friends that are, and have even gone to services (after much reading so I wouldn't feel foolish or disrespectful like a tourist). I never got to the subject of sexuality in my reading.

As I began reading your above post, I was going to ask what was the predominant religion in your region of SD (I've been to SD, too, yay!). I might have tried to guess--stiff formal protestantism.

I am in deep south bible belt territory. Definitely have to sift through the horror humans have injected into the philosophies of theism over the centuries.
In fact, Jimmy Swaggart and his dynasty reside and do what they do in my city. Smaller scale than _before_ the scandals, though. This is his house.
Much of his bible college/living-community is vacant/neglected/unfinished.

 

[Nanci]

The priests of the Greek Orthodox church told me I had two choices--chastity (basically lifelong loneliness) or hell. It would be enough to make most anyone fall to pieces inside.

Or recognize that it's just some BS dogma, and find a church where you are welcome. Churches need to get with the times. I think the new pope is extremely cognizant and supportive of that.

 

[smigon]

A débutante and her début.

A big party with pretty girls in fancy dresses. Now that is great marketing for the snake hobby. LOL.

V, if I still had that horrendous 80's wedding gown I would put it on (gloves and all), drape the creatures across me and take a picture just for you. I believe you could write the script for the campaign.

 

[smigon]

Hi there. I'd never want to do that. For one, I've had the experience of coming out as gay. I've come "out of the broom closet" as Pagan, too. I'm a gay witch that keeps snakes.

Will you marry me? I know I am already married, and I have NO idea what sex you are, but being a Pagan is the closest thing to religion that resonates with me. "a gay witch that keeps snakes". LOVE IT.

 

[smigon]

A Christian's goal shouldn't be to force Chritianity on others, but to offer it. Sadly, some still try to use force, which of course would just push others away.

I hate it when gays are bullied by Christians. It's just rude. We have a right to disagree, but not abuse, verbally or physically.

"Finding a pamphlet on my car's windshield with a load of hogwash about how evil and nasty gay people are and how they are going to burn in hell is offensive (yes, I got one of those pieces of trash stuck to my car a few years ago). Admitting that my family would in fact try to "save me" I cannot fathom how that is offensive. "

Pamphlets like that should never be handed out. Once again, they are rude and push people away. I am very sorry you got something that rude.

Cat, YOU have no reason to apologize. You aren't the fanatic plastering these pamphlets everywhere and arguing with others how we are going to hell for not being Christian. You may share the beliefs, but on how they are brought to attention to others can get rude.

 

[smigon]

Okay, one last question. You don't have to admit it yourself, but what percentage of people do you think are "bi-curious"? You know that I didn't have that "drunken college girl hookup" that is normal today, and I have never had sex with a woman, but I am definitely bi-curious and I think there are more of us out there than not.

I was at work the other night and these college kids were at one of my blackjack tables and this one guy (22, 23 maybe) overheard the conversation between me, another pit boss and two dealers. He chimed in and we all got into the conversation with all his friends. EVERY one of them (6-7) said they were bi-curious, and the first guy said he wouldn't believe most people if they said they weren't. They may deny it because of the stigma that is attached, but I actually think that most of the people in the world would be lying if they said they would never consider it. Not ACT on it, just consider it.

One of the pit bosses, Kari, has a daughter who has had sex with both men and women, and still doesn't know which she likes better! Imagine a world like that, where you weren't told what you do and don't and what you can and can't like.

 

[smigon]

Or recognize that it's just some BS dogma, and find a church where you are welcome. Churches need to get with the times. I think the new pope is extremely cognizant and supportive of that.

I LOVE our new pope. I was christened Catholic, but have found no use for the religion. I find my spirituality in living, breathing, tangible things that someone up there knew would put a smile on my face and I can say "thank you".

My hope in my lifetime is that marriage for everyone is welcome, including clergy members. Everyone is a sexual being, and to deny someone that pleasure is forcing them to look elsewhere for it, like priests and the little boys. HOW can you preach to people about the bible and all its good when you find nothing wrong with playing "5 minutes in the confessional" with the child you are supposed to earn trust from to lead them down the righteous path.

Okay, Ambien is starting to kick in, off to dream of a better world with all you in it.

 

[antiochian]

Very interesting. I have read about Greek Orthodox, have friends that are, and have even gone to services (after much reading so I wouldn't feel foolish or disrespectful like a tourist). I never got to the subject of sexuality in my reading.

As I began reading your above post, I was going to ask what was the predominant religion in your region of SD (I've been to SD, too, yay!). I might have tried to guess--stiff formal protestantism.

I am in deep south bible belt territory. Definitely have to sift through the horror humans have injected into the philosophies of theism over the centuries.
In fact, Jimmy Swaggart and his dynasty reside and do what they do in my city. Smaller scale than _before_ the scandals, though. This is his house.
Much of his bible college/living-community is vacant/neglected/unfinished.

I grew up in southwest MN near the SD and IA borders. In this area there were lots of German, Scandinavian, and Dutch immigrants. Thus, Lutherans are by far the major religion (ranging from the fairly liberal ELCA to the uber conservative Missouri Synod & Wisconsin Synod Lutherans). Many Dutch Reformed people here as well, with a smaller number of Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, and a light sprinkling of less common groups like Eastern Orthodox (mainly in the larger cities of Sioux Falls and Sioux City), Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons.

If you want to know what the Eastern Orthodox think of gays (this includes all the national churches: Greek, Ukrainian, Serbian, Polish, etc.), just take a look at Russia, which is home to most of the world's Orthodox Christians. Viciously anti-gay country. This all came to a head recently during the Olympics. (This is not saying all Russians are bad or bigoted, lest I offend someone... just stating the obvious facts.)

 

[Nanci]

I grew up in a St. Paul suburb. Raised Episcopalian. Never felt a need to change. Churches in the south give me the creeps, sort of. All that waving and holding your hands up and falling out of your seat and speaking in tongues- yeah, right. I guess I prefer a more traditional church service, not that I ever go.

 

[antiochian]

Will you marry me? I know I am already married, and I have NO idea what sex you are, but being a Pagan is the closest thing to religion that resonates with me. "a gay witch that keeps snakes". LOVE IT.

Thank you and although my driver's license says "Male" I've been known to don a gown and feather boa from time to time. :dancer:

I find modern-day paganism in its various forms (Druid Reconstructionists, Wiccans, Heathens, goddess worshipers and dirt adorers of every stripe) is beautiful for its simplicity and openness. No scripture, no holy book to rely on to tell you what to do, just the stars, the trees and the rain and your heart to guide you. I do go to church sometimes, I love to pray the rosary, I do enjoy reading the Psalms, but I have a huge problem when people use epistles written millennia ago to justify throwing a lesbian daughter out on the street, or denying me the rights that come with civil marriage. The problem with scripture is its meaning has to be interpreted/decoded, and given that so many human beings are dimwits, well that's a bit of a problem.

 

[antiochian]

I agree that Pope Francis is a HUGE improvement of Pope Emeritus B16. I don't know that he's totally on the same page with marriage and adoption rights, but it's a step forward.

Like so many others, I find it very frustrating that the Catholic Church would even think of claiming the moral high ground, which it so clearly lost in centuries of bloodshed, and the sex abuse crisis, which so many would prefer to sweep under the rug rather than claim, confess, and act on.

It's not the Fred Phelpses of the world that bother me so much as the people who smile, embrace me, say they love me and Christ loves me, but then proceed to explain how I'm out to recruit children, take away religious liberty, and destroy the family and the planet as we know it.

 

[antiochian]

Okay, one last question. You don't have to admit it yourself, but what percentage of people do you think are "bi-curious"? You know that I didn't have that "drunken college girl hookup" that is normal today, and I have never had sex with a woman, but I am definitely bi-curious and I think there are more of us out there than not.

I was at work the other night and these college kids were at one of my blackjack tables and this one guy (22, 23 maybe) overheard the conversation between me, another pit boss and two dealers. He chimed in and we all got into the conversation with all his friends. EVERY one of them (6-7) said they were bi-curious, and the first guy said he wouldn't believe most people if they said they weren't. They may deny it because of the stigma that is attached, but I actually think that most of the people in the world would be lying if they said they would never consider it. Not ACT on it, just consider it.

One of the pit bosses, Kari, has a daughter who has had sex with both men and women, and still doesn't know which she likes better! Imagine a world like that, where you weren't told what you do and don't and what you can and can't like.

I've heard it said before. We're all bi and need to accept it and quit pretending. I don't believe that exactly, but I do think there are plenty that are who will never admit it. I've certainly been attracted to a woman here and there, but it's men I'm truly drawn to physically and emotionally. I like cuddling with a muscular body with just a dabble of fur. I think the world needs more love, period. Pansexual. Bisexual. Whatever.

 

[HVani]

I can agree with that, the world does need more love.

Not sure on the bi curious thing. While I do find myself attracted to some women, it's more I want to be around them. These type of women are usually warm and friendly, and seem to always smell good. Anyway if I let my mind wonder and imagine things going further, it just doesn't do it for me. I'm just not interested.

 

[Chip]

I've heard it said before. We're all bi and need to accept it and quit pretending. I don't believe that exactly, but I do think there are plenty that are who will never admit it.

Agreed. It's easy to say everyone else must be the way you are (directed at whomever authored that statement, not you), but that doesn't make it so. I have no doubts a lot of people live miserable lives denying their own nature, but I know myself, and know that statement to be false. I also tend to believe friends gay and straight who tell me they feel no spectrum, they are simply attracted to one gender. I would guess more people are either gay or straight than bi, actually. To find people attractive is not necessarily the same as being sexually attracted to them, although I do wonder how things would be if society was more accepting of non-traditional coupling. But as a guy who was in high school in the 80's, I can tell you that we've come a long way.

I think the world needs more love, period. Pansexual. Bisexual. Whatever.

Amen. And I'd add that love doesn't even have to be sexual at all.

But oh yeah, corn snakes...