Considering branching out

[gsdbecca]

BTS don't need live food.

 

[Nanci]

Silkworms are really a great insect to feed. But they take twice-daily care themselves!

 

[HerpsOfNM]

You can work with mealworms/superwroms... but you will need to "branch out" with another type of insect, since mealworms stop being relevant once Leopard geckos gain a bit of size(let alone Beardies!) ... so if not roaches, you'll need crickets, at least... which are even more of a pain to be perfectly honest.

If I remember mealworm (Tenebrio molitor) nutritional analysis correctly they are higher in fat, lower in protein and moisture, and not as easy to get to the proper 2:1 cahos ratio as crickets. Comparably to superworms (Zoophobas sp.) they (mealworms) are still higher in fat pound for pound even though they are significantly smaller than superworms. Additionally, I recall mealworms have a super dense chitinous exoskeleton compared to superworms, crickets, etc.

Interestingly enough, apparently leopard geckos raised on mealworms, when young, grow larger (not just fatter, but larger) than when raised on straight crickets or a mix of crickets and mealworms per this paper...(sorry for caps, I copied/pasted tital from the pdf)

GROWTH RATE VARIATION IN CAPTIVE SPECIES: THE CASE OF
LEOPARD GECKOS, EUBLEPHARIS MACULARIUS

I personally only use mealworms and superworms as treats or to get weight back on breeding females, otherwise I feed crickets exclusively. I prefer lean, muscular geckos over obese waddling leos that have been fed nothing but mealies. Kind of like this picture....

9 times out of 10, the leos/beardies/etc that I see fed nothing but mealies fall under the heavy to grossly obese look of the lab above. My personal geckos fall more along the lines of ideal to heavy from being fed almost solely crickets.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

tital...lol?! ie 10 autocorrected title to tital? weird

 

[Zombiegirl]

Have you guys heard of (probably), or fed Phoenix worms to your reptile? My beardies LOVE them!! Good quality product and not bad on price either

http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/StoreFront

 

[Kokopelli]

If you take a look at Ron Tremper's manual, he states that he kept all of his Leo's on a staple diet of mealworms(not superworms) for years and years with no ill effect(aside from it being kind of annoying for adult Leos).

I know a local breeder who tries to feed baby Leos mainly on crickets... for 2 years now he gets malnourished babies which don't grow well(and with problems). Some geckos get stressed out, and even bit by crickets- they are becoming less and less common ever since the introduction of Dubia roaches as feeders.

Mealworms are relatively balanced. Superworms are not, true- but they also can be used as a main feeder insect, at least for breeders... since adult Leos spend almost half of the year in breeding/laying eggs rather than really eating.

So... to each his own I guess... it boils down to just learning every specific gecko's behavior, their preferences(not all are willing to eat worms, or crickets, or roaches), their feeding routine, and fit the best options to them.

Personally, I find that superworms are a very solid choice for my breeding adults... they need the fat since they spend tremendous amounts of energy and resources during breeding. They also are not so keen on feeding during this time, so whatever I can get into them, the better

Having said that, roaches still are a very important part of my gecko's diet.

 

[Kokopelli]

Have you guys heard of (probably), or fed Phoenix worms to your reptile? My beardies LOVE them!! Good quality product and not bad on price either

http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/StoreFront

An amazing option for those who have access to it.
When you keep a group of lizards though, you will need large amounts... so you either spend allot of money or breed them.

Breeding Phoenix worms is a bit of a pain since you need to keep flies.

 

[kathylove]

It is too bad you are so against keeping roaches. The dubias are so easy that I kept them even when I had no insect eaters! I had gotten a colony going, and they were really great for recycling food scraps from the kitchen. So I kept them, ever expanding the colony, giving some away to friends, etc, with the plan that I would be getting some lizards. Now I do have a couple of day geckos, and am thinking about beardies again.

Because adult beardies eat a lot of plant matter, they are easier to keep than leos, IMO. I have friends who kept beardies totally on commercial diets without any insects, and bred them successfully on that diet. I don't really like the idea, but it does show how adaptable they are. If I get beardies again, I will probably keep them outside, feed a variety of plants, roaches, some commercial diet, and just an occasional treat of various other insects. But if I breed them, I will have to buy more insects for the babies for a while, since I don't plan to breed crickets.

One tip that we used to do back in our Glades Herp days, was that we would set up our extra weekly order of adult crickets in tall Rubbermaid containers with potting soil in it. They would lay lots of eggs before we fed them off. Then we would hatch them for a lot of "free" baby crickets, even though we weren't breeding colonies ourselves.

 

[Kokopelli]

You really compare Leos with Beardies food-wise?
I have friends who keep Beardies and they devour tons of insects... Leos are a poultry when compared to Beardies 1 VS 1...

This isn't a challenge, I'm just surprised cause I never heard anyone comparing the two in that manner.

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

When Ramsay (leatherback beardie) was four months old, he was eating around 80-120 small dubia a day. They are garbage disposals! Marvin the leo is eating mostly Phoenix worms right now, with some silkies thrown in. He still refuses to eat dubias.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

If you take a look at Ron Tremper's manual, he states that he kept all of his Leo's on a staple diet of mealworms(not superworms) for years and years with no ill effect(aside from it being kind of annoying for adult Leos).

I have multiple versions of the leopard gecko manual, dating back to before even Ron was a co-author. I take his word with a grain of salt as the man leaves quite to be desired in my opinion, but that's from personal experiences, like when he lied on me back in 1999 on his line of albinos not turning brown and wouldn't refund my money, or more recently when he and Nigel Marvin just flat out interrupted me at the 2010 NARBC show in Arlington, TX and carried on a 10 minute conversation with Ron just walking away afterwards. Myself and a friend were going to purchase animals, but when Ron walked, we walked. Not very professional, but this is not the place to discuss that matter nor do I care to.

I know a local breeder who tries to feed baby Leos mainly on crickets... for 2 years now he gets malnourished babies which don't grow well(and with problems). Some geckos get stressed out, and even bit by crickets- they are becoming less and less common ever since the introduction of Dubia roaches as feeders.

No disrespect, but he's doing something terribly wrong. Either not gutloading the crickets properly, flat out just not feeding the crickets, or not supplementing properly. I've been keeping leos since 1996 and I've yet to have any that are malnourished, I've not had any get stressed out either, rather all my leos from hatchlings to adults go absolutely nuts for crickets and other fast-moving prey.

Mealworms are relatively balanced. Superworms are not, true- but they also can be used as a main feeder insect, at least for breeders... since adult Leos spend almost half of the year in breeding/laying eggs rather than really eating.

So... to each his own I guess... it boils down to just learning every specific gecko's behavior, their preferences(not all are willing to eat worms, or crickets, or roaches), their feeding routine, and fit the best options to them.

Quite the contrary, mealworms are not that balanced, and their are numerous scientific articles and insect company analysis that will show this, including the PDF file I linked to that shows the nutritional analysis of crickets versus mealworms.

Personally, I find that superworms are a very solid choice for my breeding adults... they need the fat since they spend tremendous amounts of energy and resources during breeding. They also are not so keen on feeding during this time, so whatever I can get into them, the better

Having said that, roaches still are a very important part of my gecko's diet.

I'd love to do roaches, but the wife has shot that idea down. They are a far superior option to mealworms, superworms, and crickets.

 

[kathylove]

"You really compare Leos with Beardies food-wise?
I have friends who keep Beardies and they devour tons of insects... Leos are a poultry when compared to Beardies 1 VS 1... "

What I meant is that beardies CAN eat a lot more insects than leos - but they don't HAVE to. If you run out of insects for your leos, they are going to be very hungry! But if you have a "dry spell" of insects for beardies, at least they will have something else to eat.

If you don't breed your own insects, it seems that you can expect occasional lapses in supply when your supplier is out of the right size, or the post office loses or kills your shipment - something will go wrong now and then. When that happens, your adult beardies can eat more plants, some commercial diet, or even some pink mice if you have them. Because of their varied diet, I consider them easier to feed than leos, even though they need more food because of their larger size.

 

[Kokopelli]

As I said, I think it's a personal choice- there's more than one way to properly keep them... and I think that variety is key.
It's really easy to see if you're doing something wrong... and naturally, I agree that something's amiss with how he brings his young up.

I tend to disagree with the mealworms statement... since there's more to it than just numeric value... we don't know if Leos can digest some types of insects better than others. I also am not hasty in disproving Tremper since allot of people practice the same husbandry with great results.

Eventually, as you "mature" as a keeper, you will start having your own opinions- which is awesome, but it doesn't lessen the value of those I learned from on the way...

I know no Leopard gecko that did poorly only because of mealworms being a main diet... which is why I do my own thing without criticizing the people who still keep to that approach.

Usually, an attentive keeper will strive to do what's best for his/her animals... it's the other type of keeper I don't like, and no number of discussions will change the fact that they will do whatever is comfortable and cheap.

 

[Kokopelli]

"You really compare Leos with Beardies food-wise?
I have friends who keep Beardies and they devour tons of insects... Leos are a poultry when compared to Beardies 1 VS 1... "

What I meant is that beardies CAN eat a lot more insects than leos - but they don't HAVE to. If you run out of insects for your leos, they are going to be very hungry! But if you have a "dry spell" of insects for beardies, at least they will have something else to eat.

If you don't breed your own insects, it seems that you can expect occasional lapses in supply when your supplier is out of the right size, or the post office loses or kills your shipment - something will go wrong now and then. When that happens, your adult beardies can eat more plants, some commercial diet, or even some pink mice if you have them. Because of their varied diet, I consider them easier to feed than leos, even though they need more food because of their larger size.

Ah, that does make allot of sense.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

As I said, I think it's a personal choice- there's more than one way to properly keep them... and I think that variety is key.
It's really easy to see if you're doing something wrong... and naturally, I agree that something's amiss with how he brings his young up.

I tend to disagree with the mealworms statement... since there's more to it than just numeric value... we don't know if Leos can digest some types of insects better than others. I also am not hasty in disproving Tremper since allot of people practice the same husbandry with great results.

Eventually, as you "mature" as a keeper, you will start having your own opinions- which is awesome, but it doesn't lessen the value of those I learned from on the way...

I know no Leopard gecko that did poorly only because of mealworms being a main diet... which is why I do my own thing without criticizing the people who still keep to that approach.

Usually, an attentive keeper will strive to do what's best for his/her animals... it's the other type of keeper I don't like, and no number of discussions will change the fact that they will do whatever is comfortable and cheap.

I couldn't agree more and that is part of the reason I'm currently in the process of even changing some of my insect keeping/feeding ways in order to provide that much more for my lizards. I've already seen the results passed on to offspring, I just haven't had the opportunity to take things from the F1 generation to an F2 generation....getting married put a hold on that process last year and this season is a huge question mark as my wife and I aren't certain if we'll be moving for employment advancements or not in the next couple of months.

Your 2nd paragraph is exactly why I linked to and keep referencing back to that pdf file. Obviously, per that study, leopard geckos grew morphologically larger on mealworms than straight crickets or a mix of crickets and mealworms (they attribute this to more calories vs a fat vs protein argument). But you can't disregard a nutritional analysis either as that will play into the overall health and body condition of the animal(s) or in other words the fitness of the animal(s). For all intended purposes though, the authors of that paper do state to the effect that additional work needs to be done. Their paper is just 1 of only a few that have been done and is research that the herp community could greatly benefit from with so many attempts at captive reproduction for reintroduction purposes, particularly from an amphibian aspect given their global decline.

 

[smigon]

With my job and a possible move to a smaller home coming up, I am going to hold up on a new creature for now, but I definitely have some great info from all of you. Thank you so much, and I hope that this thread helps some others in choices and learning something new. You can never have too much knowledge about the things we care about most in life!