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Could it be ?????

I guess the biggest challen would be getting them both to eat. Wonder if their digestive tracts are completely separate?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
 
I think they are. I talked to a doctor at work, at length, about how this type of twinning happens. Well, actually the "normal" two headed twinning.

Congratulations for getting something special, Walter! My comment earlier meant to say, I'd rather just not have the heartbreak of a double-something not surviving. I'm not good at that.
 
Nanci said:
I think they are. I talked to a doctor at work, at length, about how this type of twinning happens. Well, actually the "normal" two headed twinning.

Congratulations for getting something special, Walter! My comment earlier meant to say, I'd rather just not have the heartbreak of a double-something not surviving. I'm not good at that.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nanci, and I totally understand the point you were making by your comment ;)

Hey, I would be VERY interested in what you may have learned from that talk about twinning and if you wouldn't mind posting it in this thread.
I only have my theory and another breeders theory, which I posted earlier, but would love to know what you may have found out..........as I'm sure alot others may be curious............what ya say ???

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Hi Walter,

I am a developmental geneticist so hopefully I can help explain the different mechanisms of twinning! It works similarly to what happens in chickens (chickens are technically reptiles after all, since they evolved from dinosaurs). Twinning can occur in multiple ways and one way is the idea you mentioned where one fertilized yolk moves prematurely and is encapsulated in the same shell as another yolk. In this case the two embryos are no more similar genetically than embryos in two separate eggs. The other methods of twinning are more complicated. The random complete splitting of a very early embryo would result in identical twins that share a single yolk. The embryos could also fuse back together after this splitting resulting in a conjoined twin. The body axis of the embryo is determined early in development and certain cell divisions are involved. As you can imagine, if the egg cell is totally symmetrical then how do we get an animal that has a distinct head and tail end? At least in chickens, the embryo is originally symmetrical but this symmetry is broken by gravity (astronauts actually took fertile chicken eggs into space to confirm this hypothesis). Regardless of the mechanism for breaking the symmetry, certain "cytoplasmic determinants" become localized to the future anterior end of the embryo. An error in cell division in the future anterior region of the embryo would thus duplicate the dorsal/anterior axis and result in a two-headed embryo.
 
DuxorW said:
Hi Walter,

I am a developmental geneticist so hopefully I can help explain the different mechanisms of twinning! It works similarly to what happens in chickens (chickens are technically reptiles after all, since they evolved from dinosaurs). Twinning can occur in multiple ways and one way is the idea you mentioned where one fertilized yolk moves prematurely and is encapsulated in the same shell as another yolk. In this case the two embryos are no more similar genetically than embryos in two separate eggs. The other methods of twinning are more complicated. The random complete splitting of a very early embryo would result in identical twins that share a single yolk. The embryos could also fuse back together after this splitting resulting in a conjoined twin. The body axis of the embryo is determined early in development and certain cell divisions are involved. As you can imagine, if the egg cell is totally symmetrical then how do we get an animal that has a distinct head and tail end? At least in chickens, the embryo is originally symmetrical but this symmetry is broken by gravity (astronauts actually took fertile chicken eggs into space to confirm this hypothesis). Regardless of the mechanism for breaking the symmetry, certain "cytoplasmic determinants" become localized to the future anterior end of the embryo. An error in cell division in the future anterior region of the embryo would thus duplicate the dorsal/anterior axis and result in a two-headed embryo.
Click to expand...

Ok so what I gather from this is, if two folicles are shelled together, this would always result in two fully seperate (non-conjoined) snakes in one egg.
However, the cell division is where the two headed or in this case a Siamese Twin would result ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Theoretically there is a chance that fusion could occur if the follicles are shelled together but it seems improbable since the embryos would be more spatially separated since they are on separate yolks. An extra cleavage of the cell in the early embryo that is specified to become the dorsal/anterior region would create a two headed snake from a single embryo. Since your snake has two heads and two tails it is more likely the fusion of two separate embryos but could also be an incomplete split of a single embryo. A lot of weird things can cause two heads in nonmammals. In fish and frogs, centrifuging the eggs in a specific manner can induce two heads, as well as treatment with certain chemicals such as lithium chloride. Some of the mechanisms of twinning are shared with mammals but not others due to the differences in the methods reptiles and mammals use to specify their body axis.
 
(Actually I'd say an incomplete split is more likely since this is a reptile. It's harder for two separate egg cells to fuse together since they would be on separate yolks.)
 
DuxorW said:
Theoretically there is a chance that fusion could occur if the follicles are shelled together but it seems improbable since the embryos would be more spatially separated since they are on separate yolks. An extra cleavage of the cell in the early embryo that is specified to become the dorsal/anterior region would create a two headed snake from a single embryo. Since your snake has two heads and two tails it is more likely the fusion of two separate embryos but could also be an incomplete split of a single embryo. A lot of weird things can cause two heads in nonmammals. In fish and frogs, centrifuging the eggs in a specific manner can induce two heads, as well as treatment with certain chemicals such as lithium chloride. Some of the mechanisms of twinning are shared with mammals but not others due to the differences in the methods reptiles and mammals use to specify their body axis.
Click to expand...

Ok gottcha.
Is it possible that this (twinning) could be linked to DNA/bloodline in reptiles, somewhat like twins run in the family bloodline of humans or is it just a fluke in reptiles and other animals ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
In humans, identical twins aren't genetic but fraternal twins are. Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, which is sometimes a genetic trait that can be passed down to females. So in the case of snakes, having two ovulations encapsulated together might be genetic, but two-headedness probably isn't. Also, in chicks, hyperovulation is more common in females that have recently sexually matured or who are reproducing for the first time, so that might be the case in snakes as well.
 
DuxorW said:
In humans, identical twins aren't genetic but fraternal twins are. Fraternal twins are the result of hyperovulation, which is sometimes a genetic trait that can be passed down to females. So in the case of snakes, having two ovulations encapsulated together might be genetic, but two-headedness probably isn't. Also, in chicks, hyperovulation is more common in females that have recently sexually matured or who are reproducing for the first time, so that might be the case in snakes as well.[/quote]

Gottcha.
This is very interseting because my last year's two-headed and this year's Siamese Twin, came from Dames that were only in their second year of breeding.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
Click to expand...
 
DuxorW said:
I hope the conjoined babies make it! Keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Click to expand...

Thanks !!
One more question for ya, as one of the other members questioned in this thread, what (if you might know) is the possibility that even though being conjoined, these both have fully functional seperate organs??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Even genetically identical animals won't have identical patterns, there is an element of randomness to that because the precursors to the pigment cells migrate during development and that migration is subject to a lot of variability. For similar reasons, identical human twins do not have identical circulatory systems. And Walter, from the picture it looks plausible that they have separate organs. But one unfortunate possibility is that the digestive tract of one of the twins does not extend to the vent, which would be a serious problem to say the least. But if they share an umbilical cord and both look healthy then they probably share circulation which is good.
 
DuxorW said:
Even genetically identical animals won't have identical patterns, there is an element of randomness to that because the precursors to the pigment cells migrate during development and that migration is subject to a lot of variability. For similar reasons, identical human twins do not have identical circulatory systems. And Walter, from the picture it looks plausible that they have separate organs. But one unfortunate possibility is that the digestive tract of one of the twins does not extend to the vent, which would be a serious problem to say the least. But if they share an umbilical cord and both look healthy then they probably share circulation which is good.
Click to expand...

Gottcha.
From what it appears, they are on one umbilical. They are actually still attached. I believe they emerged prematurely from the egg. They are still very aleart.
When ever I open the incubation box, they both flicker their toungs.

I really appreciate the info you gave here. It was VERY interesting and educational at the same time.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Thanks! It's not often I get to talk about these things in normal conversation so I totally nerd out. Also, I just assembled a new rack that is looking forward to what you produce this year!
 
DuxorW said:
Even genetically identical animals won't have identical patterns, there is an element of randomness to that because the precursors to the pigment cells migrate during development and that migration is subject to a lot of variability.
Click to expand...
Good to know! Well, they certainly are very similar.
 
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