Culling 'side product' hatchlings

[tyflier]

Blutengel wrote:

"I do think feeding them off is better then wasting them of course but do not try to make yourself look better in a discusiin, saying that you do feed them to other animals... you are still producing redundant animals only for the purpose of breeding the snake you lie, not to keep other animals alive. In ay other breeding business this fact would not be 'covered' by feeding them to other animals...

I still think you're missing something...

The culling of offspring from clutches of cornsnakes happens. It is a necessity, in one manner or another, for one reason or another. Regardless of the reasoning, feeding the euthanized snakes is an option not an excuse.

Nobody is saying "I feed the dead top my kingsnakes" to make themselves FEEL better or SOUND better. It is simply stated as a fact that the dead offspring do not go to waste. It is not a by-product of producing redundant animals, it is a by-product or breeding, and it is inevitable and un-escapable. The simple act of feeding off the dead, rather than simply tossing them in the wastebasket, is economical...not an excuse. It saves on the cost of food, and uses a waste product in a resourceful manner. It isn't an excuse to kill, it is a RESULT of the killing.

I do think that we need to agree to disagree . But I think the distinction needs to be made between using feeding as an excuse or as a resourceful ends. I think it is arrogant and accusatory to say anyone that says "I fed them to my _____" is simply using it as an excuse. The statement implies a choice was made that needn't have been made, and I simply feel that this is entirely untrue. The offspring will be killed, whatever is done with the bodies, and your statement of it being "an excuse" implies that the animals are needlessly slaughtered, and I think that is an unfair implication...

 

[jenkva]

I have to admit that after reading all the arguments so far, it explains to me and I understand better “why” some hatchlings might be culled even thought I still don’t agree with them being culled just because the “look” doesn't meet the wanted outcome.

It seems to me that the division is from new breeders/owners which are seeing their snakes as pets (as I do which might explain my reluctance to agree with culling) and the long time breeders.

In the end, it is up to the breeder what they do with the hatchlings and I do agree that for whatever reason a hatchling is culled, why waste it if you have another snake that will eat it.

I guess it depends on what you are “used” to (am not saying it is a habit) and when I look at my friends’ reaction when I tell them that I feed my snakes mice, they pull disgusted/horrified faces but since it is what I need to do to feed my snakes, this is what I do.

Which ever way, we all have our reasons for doing what we have and as long as we are comfortable with it, why not, who am I to tell someone they are not allow or should not do something. If they are telling me about it and providing they are also ok with me voicing my opinion on the matter... We should all be allowed our own opinion

 

[Susan]

Susan, to me saying that you would cull because of numbers, is the same as actually have done it, when it comes to discussing it. Why do you think there is a difference? You think you might chance your mind when the situation occurs in which you say you would cull because of numbers?

Saying I would shoot and kill someone that has broken into my house and is threatening my life is not the same as having actually done it. I do not know what I would do in that situation. And the same applies to culling an over-abundance of hatchlings. I know about how many hatchlings my breeders will produce in a given year, but I can never be sure until the eggs are laid. I usually average about 10 eggs per clutch, so I breed 15 females, assuming I will have about 150 hatchlings. But then my females start to actually lay their eggs, after they have all been bred so I can't undo or prevent any further clutches, and each female lays 25 eggs. Holy Cow! I now have to expect to take care of 375 hatchlings! What do you suggest I do? Cull them so I am back down to the level I had originally expected? Set them free as soon as they hatch? Put the last 9 clutches in the freezer and kill the hatchlings before they are even born? Or quit my job so I can take care of them, but let my children go hungry because I can't afford to buy them food?

 

[Vinman]

If I have a over abundance of pure snakes or hybrid or any herp They go to the wholesaler whether I loose money or not. There is no reason to kill pure breeds even if they hold new genes or a new combo of genes they can go to a wholesaler. if you are worried of someone producing somthing that you are working on then send the males to one place and the females to another. If it is a few animals well you cull them if no wholesaler that can take them .

Now what started this thread is my oppion on culling hybrids that look pure.

 

[SnakeAround]

Saying I would shoot and kill someone that has broken into my house and is threatening my life is not the same as having actually done it. I do not know what I would do in that situation. And the same applies to culling an over-abundance of hatchlings. I know about how many hatchlings my breeders will produce in a given year, but I can never be sure until the eggs are laid. I usually average about 10 eggs per clutch, so I breed 15 females, assuming I will have about 150 hatchlings. But then my females start to actually lay their eggs, after they have all been bred so I can't undo or prevent any further clutches, and each female lays 25 eggs. Holy Cow! I now have to expect to take care of 375 hatchlings! What do you suggest I do? Cull them so I am back down to the level I had originally expected? Set them free as soon as they hatch? Put the last 9 clutches in the freezer and kill the hatchlings before they are even born? Or quit my job so I can take care of them, but let my children go hungry because I can't afford to buy them food?

I did not say it is the same, I say it is the same when discussing what you think of it... if you say you would kill a burglar but had never done it, and we would be discussing whether that is ethical, I would see you as being ok with it. You take a stand, you defend it. Telling you have not done it in real life, does not change your point of view in the discussion unless you are not 100% sure about the ground you stand on.

Of course a situation like you stated above, might lead to culling hathlings. But you never intended to, tried to breed what you can handle and next time you'll probably breed even less pairs if you are a responsible person. Mistakes are to learn from. But that situation is not the same as breedingclutches KNOWING you'll need to cull some because of your 'random' standards of beauty or which snakes should go to the market.

Wether throwing good eggs away is the same as/better then/worse then culling the hatchlings and feed them to other animals that might only be kept for the sake of that, could be worth another thread

 

[SnakeAround]

If I have a over abundance of pure snakes or hybrid or any herp They go to the wholesaler whether I loose money or not. There is no reason to kill pure breeds even if they hold new genes or a new combo of genes they can go to a wholesaler. if you are worried of someone producing somthing that you are working on then send the males to one place and the females to another. If it is a few animals well you cull them if no wholesaler that can take them .

Now what started this thread is my oppion on culling hybrids that look pure.

What started this thread was me

"There is no reason to kill pure breeds even if they hold new genes or a new combo of genes they can go to a wholesaler."

Vin, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; this sounds like pure breeds have more right to live then any not pure animal in any case... can you further clarify me what you mean, since your PM to me showed that you are able to tell things the right way so we do not get you wrongly...

 

[tyflier]

Blutengel wrote:

"I did not say it is the same, I say it is the same when discussing what you think of it... if you say you would kill a burglar but had never done it, and we would be discussing whether that is ethical, I would see you as being ok with it. You take a stand, you defend it. Telling you have not done it in real life, does not change your point of view in the discussion unless you are not 100% sure about the ground you stand on..."

I don't agree with this statement.

For example(and I apologize to Vinnie for using him as an example...I mean no offense)--Vinman decided he wants to breed hybrids, but he wants to cull any that resemble purebloods of either species. I don't agree with this practice, and it is NOT a practice that I would do(though admittedly, I am not sure HOW I would deal with it). HOWEVER...I will defend the ethical value in Vinman's decision, because I DO believe his decision to do this is one which is made with responsibility and the benefit of the animals in mind, even if it's a difficult task for him to accomplish.

So while I personally do not agree with his decision to do this, I DO agree that it is a responsible decision being made, and I will defend this decision as an ethical one, even though I wouldn't do it myself.

In this instance, I may very well defend his decision from the perspective of doing it myself in conversation. That is NOT to say that I am "on the fence" as regards the issue, and it is also not to say that it is a practice I would do for my own stock. It is ONLY to say that I understand the reasoning, I RESPECT the reasoning, and I feel that reasoning is, in itself, ethical and justifiable for the ends will be.

Does that make sense??

 

[kathylove]

WOW - I went to feed the adults, and look how busy everyone was here!

Blutengel, I believe I understand what you are saying: that it is bad to overproduce pet snakes to the point where you would have to cull them out and you should produce less rather than cull. But that if you are producing snakes (or anything else) for food, it is ok to produce whatever you need and cull (kill all of them) to feed them off as intended. At least that is what I think you mean.

I understand (I think) what you are saying, but I just don't see the logic of it. We don't seem to be on the same wavelength, so I guess we have to just agree to disagree.

But it has been a great discussion with everyone making their points in a well written and polite fashion. Maybe nobody will change their mind, but it is food for thought.

 

[SnakeAround]

Blutengel wrote:


I still think you're missing something...

The culling of offspring from clutches of cornsnakes happens. It is a necessity, in one manner or another, for one reason or another. Regardless of the reasoning, feeding the euthanized snakes is an option not an excuse.

Nobody is saying "I feed the dead top my kingsnakes" to make themselves FEEL better or SOUND better. It is simply stated as a fact that the dead offspring do not go to waste. It is not a by-product of producing redundant animals, it is a by-product or breeding, and it is inevitable and un-escapable. The simple act of feeding off the dead, rather than simply tossing them in the wastebasket, is economical...not an excuse. It saves on the cost of food, and uses a waste product in a resourceful manner. It isn't an excuse to kill, it is a RESULT of the killing.

I do think that we need to agree to disagree . But I think the distinction needs to be made between using feeding as an excuse or as a resourceful ends. I think it is arrogant and accusatory to say anyone that says "I fed them to my _____" is simply using it as an excuse. The statement implies a choice was made that needn't have been made, and I simply feel that this is entirely untrue. The offspring will be killed, whatever is done with the bodies, and your statement of it being "an excuse" implies that the animals are needlessly slaughtered, and I think that is an unfair implication...

But don't you see that people use it as an excuse in the discussion? We are discussing wether it is ethical to 'overproduce' and cull animals, not wether it is better or worse to feed them off. To me, the fact that they are fed off, should not have to be part of the discussion, but people point that out to minimise their actions IMO. They might not use it as an excuse to be able to run more projects, but that is around the corner if you have these living waste bins available... that is a thin line to cross.

 

[SnakeAround]

Blutengel, I believe I understand what you are saying: that it is bad to overproduce pet snakes to the point where you would have to cull them out and you should produce less rather than cull. But that if you are producing snakes (or anything else) for food, it is ok to produce whatever you need and cull (kill all of them) to feed them off as intended. At least that is what I think you mean.

I understand (I think) what you are saying, but I just don't see the logic of it. We don't seem to be on the same wavelength, so I guess we have to just agree to disagree.

But it has been a great discussion with everyone making their points in a well written and polite fashion. Maybe nobody will change their mind, but it is food for thought.

YAY, you got it! Happy with that, I was hoping for someone to pop up and explain it in a way others might understand too! I can sure live with the disagreement on it

 

[tyflier]

But don't you see that people use it as an excuse in the discussion? We are discussing wether it is ethical to 'overproduce' and cull animals, not wether it is better or worse to feed them off. To me, the fact that they are fed off, should not have to be part of the discussion, but people point that out to minimise their actions IMO. They might not use it as an excuse to be able to run more projects, but that is around the corner if you have these living waste bins available... that is a thin line to cross.

Now...this is different...I am NOT discussing the purposeful breeding of "excess" snakes, and then justifying it through feeding them off. That is not what I Have been discussing, and could very well be the root of our misunderstandings.

I am not, and will not, defend the actions of somebody that irresponsibly and purposefully breeds more animals than they are prepared to care for or are capable of selling. That in itself is irresponsible, IMO, and I thought that was made clear earlier. Certainly it would be FAR more "ethical" or "moral" to simply limit your breeding. On that I am pretty sure we are in agreement.

Justifying irresponsible behavior is not going to fly, in my book, regardless of the outcome. However, this is not the situation that Susan mentioned, nor is it the situation which Vinman mentioned. And certainly it is not the situation which I have been defending...

 

[SnakeAround]

Blutengel wrote:


I don't agree with this statement.

For example(and I apologize to Vinnie for using him as an example...I mean no offense)--Vinman decided he wants to breed hybrids, but he wants to cull any that resemble purebloods of either species. I don't agree with this practice, and it is NOT a practice that I would do(though admittedly, I am not sure HOW I would deal with it). HOWEVER...I will defend the ethical value in Vinman's decision, because I DO believe his decision to do this is one which is made with responsibility and the benefit of the animals in mind, even if it's a difficult task for him to accomplish.

So while I personally do not agree with his decision to do this, I DO agree that it is a responsible decision being made, and I will defend this decision as an ethical one, even though I wouldn't do it myself.

In this instance, I may very well defend his decision from the perspective of doing it myself in conversation. That is NOT to say that I am "on the fence" as regards the issue, and it is also not to say that it is a practice I would do for my own stock. It is ONLY to say that I understand the reasoning, I RESPECT the reasoning, and I feel that reasoning is, in itself, ethical and justifiable for the ends will be.

Does that make sense??

I do understand you, but I still think that if he would really be concerned about the market, he shoud not breed hybrids, plain and simple! He KNOWS that any hybrid threats the market, but he STILL decided he can let live the ones he wants to live and still call it respectfull and ethical.... that would be like me crossing my bairdi and yellow rat, kill most of their hatchlings (since they are way hard to sell) and keep 2 only because I want to see what they looks like as adults and breed a beautiful line to sell to the same market in a couple of years. Would you seriously consider that a decision made by reasons of ethics? It might be called responsible considering protection of the market, but ethical? No way....

 

[Roy Munson]

But don't you see that people use it as an excuse in the discussion? We are discussing wether it is ethical to 'overproduce' and cull animals, not wether it is better or worse to feed them off. To me, the fact that they are fed off, should not have to be part of the discussion, but people point that out to minimise their actions IMO. They might not use it as an excuse to be able to run more projects, but that is around the corner if you have these living waste bins available... that is a thin line to cross.

The problem I have with using the word "excuse" here is that it implies that there is something that needs excusing. Maybe some have presented the feeding aspect as a justification for culling excess or sub-standard hatchlings, but I think a lot of people (including me) don't feel that we need to make excuses. To whom do I need to justify my decision to use my own criteria for assessing culls? We can leave the kingsnakes out of it. If I want to humanely euthanize hatchlings based on my cull criteria and flush them down the toilet, I don't need to justify it to anyone. :shrugs:

 

[kathylove]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyflier again.

Excellent points! You took the words out of my mouth.

 

[SnakeAround]

The problem I have with using the word "excuse" here is that it emplies that there is something that needs excusing. Maybe some have presented the feeding aspect as a justification for culling excess or sub-standard hatchlings, but I think a lot of people (including me) don't feel that we need to make excuses. To whom do I need to justify my decision to use my own criteria for assessing culls? We can leave the kingsnakes out of it. If I want to humanely euthanize hatchlings based on my cull criteria and flush them down the toilet, I don't need to justify it to anyone. :shrugs:

But that is what I am talking about, it hit the wrong button in me that some people seem to use it as an excuse, or that is what I feel.... if you do not use it as an excuse, leave it out of the discussion indeed

 

[SnakeAround]

Now...this is different...I am NOT discussing the purposeful breeding of "excess" snakes, and then justifying it through feeding them off. That is not what I Have been discussing, and could very well be the root of our misunderstandings.

I am not, and will not, defend the actions of somebody that irresponsibly and purposefully breeds more animals than they are prepared to care for or are capable of selling. That in itself is irresponsible, IMO, and I thought that was made clear earlier. Certainly it would be FAR more "ethical" or "moral" to simply limit your breeding. On that I am pretty sure we are in agreement.

Justifying irresponsible behavior is not going to fly, in my book, regardless of the outcome. However, this is not the situation that Susan mentioned, nor is it the situation which Vinman mentioned. And certainly it is not the situation which I have been defending...

Ah, now we are getting somewhere...

I did say the situation Susan described as an example, is different. But I still think killing pure looking hybrids is not an action to solve a sudden problem, but a planned action to be able to satisfy your 'need' to breed hybrids and still be able to say you protect the market, while in reality you do not...

 

[Vinman]

Look there are ton of wholesalers that take surplus animals . you might not make a whole lot but there is a outlet for un wanted herps, culling is the last resort. But when breeding hybrids you are breaking the rules of nature. So to make sure you dont add to the problem of tainting pure breeds, it is your responseabilty to make sure they dont mess up the gene pool. So i say cull. if it is dead it cant breed. If it is a male I could fix it by cutting off the hemapenis, but I feel that is more crule to live your whole life with out your genatils and have a sex drive.
Now I make a living selling herps culling cuts into my profit. So I want to cull at least as possible, so what I do is to breed hybrids so they dont look like pure anything. The whole purpous for making hybrids is to make something diffrent that dont exsits in nature.

I breed african cichlids since 1980 you couldn't get pure red zebras they all were aini or crimson reds which are hybrids. Not untill 1995 I could get pure reds zebras. I bought not only the red ones but the orange blotched ( OB ) fish which are only 5% of the wild population and paid a arm and a leg for them. But when people come over the house I tell them that is what a real red zebra looks like . The hybrids are more deeper colored than the pure . But I got the real fish the one that comes from out of the lake. I get more money for my fish because most people want a fish as it is in nature. I'm making a albino red and a albino red ob useing my pure fish. Need stuff for the petshops

What started this thread was me

"There is no reason to kill pure breeds even if they hold new genes or a new combo of genes they can go to a wholesaler."

Vin, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; this sounds like pure breeds have more right to live then any not pure animal in any case... can you further clarify me what you mean, since your PM to me showed that you are able to tell things the right way so we do not get you wrongly...

 

[SnakeAround]

this the way I look at it these animals would not been breed toghether in nature I have RESPONCEABILTY for these monsters . They are un-natural snakes there for as in nature I will be selecting who lives and passes on their genitc makeup and who will not make the grade, it is life . Some live and some die thats that. I am their god in the un natural world.

I know it just be to hard for some of you to pathom but we are all living things . All fauna what gives us any reason to say a roach ,rat, mouse or any living thing has the right to live over another. So on that thought I feel that a human life is worth less than any animal. and we as humans are the parisite of the earth. we are the most destrocitve organisem on the planet. Life is crule and death is life without death there is no life. Pretty grim but true

So we are parasites AND gods in the world of monstereous hybrids? Man, you can write a fantasy novel... :crazy02: Why would you want to produce monsters anyway? I am very tempted to say because of money then... or out of curiosity perhaps? Or just because you can?

 

[carol]

I'm still looking for an answer on this one Blutengel.

I have a colony of mice that my breeding goals are to create mice with gentic mutations that are pretty to look at and have temperments that are pleasant as well.

I also have colonies that my breeding goals are just to have females that produce as many healthy pinks as possible.

So is it wrong to to feed off some from one colony and not the other? Do I have to place all the mice from the first colony with pet homes if they don't meet my breeding goals? I am obligated to just breed those mice less instead of feeding them off? All because my goal for that colony was to make nice pet mice?

 

[SnakeAround]

Look there are ton of wholesalers that take surplus animals . you might not make a whole lot but there is a outlet for un wanted herps, culling is the last resort. But when breeding hybrids you are breaking the rules of nature. So to make sure you dont add to the problem of tainting pure breeds, it is your responseabilty to make sure they dont mess up the gene pool. So i say cull. if it is dead it cant breed. If it is a male I could fix it by cutting off the hemapenis, but I feel that is more crule to live your whole life with out your genatils and have a sex drive.
Now I make a living selling herps culling cuts into my profit. So I want to cull at least as possible, so what I do is to breed hybrids so they dont look like pure anything. The whole purpous for making hybrids is to make something diffrent that dont exsits in nature.

What do you do with adults you do not want to breed with anymore? you do sell hatchlings that do not look pure, right? Why does it not get through your barricaded that these also threaten the market? Tell me why they would not....