• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Help a color-blind fool out....please!

M

Mitchell Mulks

New member
I had several pairings this year that were het caramel, but my color-blind butt is having a real hard time differentiating between classics and caramels. I'm not totally colorblind, but I have issues seeing shades; so soft yellows and bright yellows, oranges and reds, etc., are tough for me.

This guy I think is a caramel motley het stripe. Am I right with respect to him being caramel?
Pro7-CaramelMotleyMale1.jpg


This is a sibling normal motley to the male above. I'm sure he's a non-caramel motley.
Motley2.jpg


Here's a classic that popped up from another het caramel pairing and I'm unsure whether he's a caramel or not. What do you all think?
CaramelPossible-1.jpg


Thanks for all your input!

Mitch
 
I'd agree that you are absolutely right on the first two. Boy, that third one is kinda hard to tell! But I am seeing some red in there, so would also say classic.
 
I'm agreeing with the others...caramel motley, normal motley and normal showing caramel "het markers" (if those really exist).
 
Thanks everyone for all of your input. I had a feeling that's the way things would turn out. Funny thing is that out of thirty hatchlings, only two were caramel morphs, and those were the caramel motley above and a topaz; not a single plain 'ol caramel!
 
They're all wrong, the first one is a Normal, send him with the rest of the wholesale animals...;)
 
Well, I hate to be the odd man out here, but that first one looks like a normal Motley to me.

Here's a pic of a Caramel Motley:

caramelmotley71.jpg


That second one looks like a Hypo Motley to me. And the third one a normal.

Here's a pic of a Hypo Motley and normal Motley together...

hypomot01.jpg
 
my 2 cents is the first is a high yellow caramel mot (I have a pair that look almost like this with the intense yellow)

2nd one has me abit perplexed tho... if the colors are true and its that red? Possible hypo as Rich said.

3rd one... normal but As Susan said, lots of nice yellow for a normal :)

Very nice babies! Congrats! :)
 
I agree with Rich.

The 1st one is the Motley version of the 3rd, with both expressing that "het Caramel" look (which someone named "yellowjacket" recently).
 
snakepunk said:
I agree with Rich.

The 1st one is the Motley version of the 3rd, with both expressing that "het Caramel" look (which someone named "yellowjacket" recently).
Click to expand...

Yes, I believe that animal will turn out looking quite a bit like the original female that I got that wound up carrying the Caramel gene. She was noteworthy for her straw colored background, which it appears the one referenced above will likely develop as well. Quite honestly, it DID make identifying Caramels in newly hatched babies quite challenging. No telling how many I may have made mistakes on over the years.

Wouldn't it be interesting to find that this one animal that produced the Caramels was also expressing yet another gene? I can certainly see that potential in some individuals that have this line in their ancestry. Too bad it's not anything that I pursued myself, but quite honestly, I had my hands full with other projects anyway.
 
So difficult! I would have guessed the first to be a caramel....

because my normal motley was almost straight brown and red when a baby. BUT I know there is a huge variation in normals.

Worries me for some projects I'll be working on.
 
Yes, I'm not seeing any red on that first one at all! But I'll bow to those with tons more experience than I.
 
How about Buf Caramel Motley and

Red Factor Motley

Buf or Yellow Factor changes browns to tan.

Red Factor speaks for itself.
 
ecreipeoj said:
How about Buf Caramel Motley and

Red Factor Motley

Buf or Yellow Factor changes browns to tan.

Red Factor speaks for itself.
Click to expand...

Do you have a photo example of what you call "yellow factor"? Have you actually seen a Buf in person? The reason I ask is because none of the animals in this thread look like Buf. Just because something seems a bit more "yellowish" than its siblings does not make it Buf.
 
Last edited:
iculatr said:
Do you have a photo example of what you call "yellow factor"? Have you actually seen a Buf in person? The reason I ask is because none of the animals in this thread look like Buf. Just because something seems a bit more "yellowish" than its siblings does not make it Buf.
Click to expand...
I know this is a sensitive subject and I respect the guy who proved out Bufs. It took him many years to be able to convince the right people that his theories were true. I fully support his theories.

Bufs came from a Caramel line which is why it took him so long to prove it out. The fact that it came from Caramel lines also links Bufs to the same lineage as Caramel, but how far back is their ancestry linked? When I speak of Caramel lines, this includes all lines, such as Butter Motleys, Striped Butters and Goldust.

If we find a gene in our Caramel lines in the USA that acts exactly the same as Buf, is it actually Buf? You tell me how we are to prove that. I think the only guy in the USA that will be able to establish if Buf is the same as Yellow Factor is Chuck Pritzel under a microscope.

Since Buf came from Caramel lines and all Caramel lines trace back to Rich Z, it seems reasonable to assume that Buf may have existed in Caramel lines in the USA before Buf was described. Like many of our other genes, it could have went completely unnoticed right under our noses. An example is Diffused. We looked at this gene for decades until someone one like Chuck came along and said, hey wait a minute, I see something that is more than selective breeding, just like the discover of Buf.

Here are two links to ACR registered Corns that I consider Yellow Factor. They were born in 2004 from a breeding between a Wild Line Lava ("Landrace" Lava) x Rich Z Butter Motley.

http://herpregistry.com/acr/Registry.php?idnum=2087

http://herpregistry.com/acr/Registry.php?idnum=2088

These two males are the ones I held back from the project, which I call my Topaz Project. Three things stood out to me in the F1 offspring. All offspring were Yellow Factored, some of them were RedCoats and ALL of them were Border-less. This breeding should have produced Normal Corns with some type of border. They were not "yellowish", "reddish" or partially "border-less", the changes in F1 were dramatic. How could anybody look at these two males and say they are Normal Corns?

There has been a constant debate over the years if Caramel is actually recessive or could it be co-dominant. I am not the only one who sees Yellow Factored Corns produced from Caramel lines, many people have seen it. Many people see two phenotypes in Caramels, Butters, Butter Motleys and Striped Butters. I have seen these same differences in phenotypes in Caramel lines too. It is not just variation, or something we can diminish by saying they are just more "yellowish". It is not hypo, because they are not Ambers, but it is a gene that has hypomelanistic effects.

Since Buf came from a Caramel line, why is it so hard to believe that Buf exist in the USA? I do not know if Buf and Yellow Factor are the same gene, but they are both dominant genes that cause Yellow in F1. It seems likely to me that they are one and the same.

I have personally never seen a Buf or Amel Buf in person that links back to the Buf lineage from the Originator, but I have seen 100's of Corns that look like the same phenotype and MAY be of the same genotype. It seems likely that Buf and Yellow Factor are the same thing, especially since they both come from Rich Z Caramel lines.
 
If you have photos of Bufs it would be cool to see them and post them here for comparisons.

I don't see any Bufs in this thread either, but I might see a Buf Caramel, which is a Motley. This was simply a "What morph is this thread", like so many others we see. I am surprised that nobody ask me why I called the Red Motley a Red Factor instead of RedCoat.

Red Factor is a deeper layer of color, while RedCoat sits on top and partially obscures the pattern of the Corn. A lot of Corns look Red Factored or look to be RedCoats, but how could we possible PROVE which one is which, when they are so widespread in our general Corn Snake Gene Pool?

You could say that the only Red Factor Corns are linked back to Don S lines, and the only RedCoat must be linked back to Joe P lines, but I think we all know, these two phenotypes are wide spread in our Corns.
 
ecreipeoj said:
http://herpregistry.com/acr/Registry.php?idnum=2087

http://herpregistry.com/acr/Registry.php?idnum=2088
Click to expand...

Those are definitely very odd colored "normals," so I can see why one would think something "more" is going on. My guess would be some other gene over it being Buf. I'm by no means a pro at Buf, but it does not have the same look that other Bufs have. Once our Buf finishes digesting his meal, I will post a photo. Oh, and it is directly from the line from Holland.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top