Homo Motley With Belly Checkers??? HOW??

[medusacoils]

Carol, I posed this question to Sean at VMSherp and he said that he sees it a lot in his Ultra and Lavender lines, to the degree that I am seeing it in this little one.

He thinks it may be do to a variation in the gene, but is more inclined to blame it on the way the animals are incubated in captivity.

Here is his response to when I sent him the pic:

I see that sort of checkering pretty often in motleys. It's most common in my Ultra Motley lines and Lavender Motley lines, but does appear in other colors from time to time. It also appears on specimens that are just het for motley as well, most often in Lavender lines. And, of course, we must remember that we are using artificial incubation here, which can cause great variation due to aberrations - that's why we cannot use captive bred specimens as holotypes or paratypes in species descriptions.


Sean Niland

So he agrees.

Thanks so much for you input!

Wayne

 

[stephen]

Hmmm.

I dont agree, imo they shouldnt have ANY checks.
For Decades thats been then rule of thumb, a way to know if your snake is or isnt a Motley.
First I heard its was ok when Sunkissed Motleys where first tried to be produced,some off spring had only a few checks....Was it a motley? Was it possibly het Motley?
Breaking the rules, to me is lowering our standards and making the already confusing world of cornsnake breeding more confusing.....
In your case its possible that the Opal Motley is Just Opal het Motley
Alot of Opals that are not Motleys dont have belly checks......

 

[carol]

I've had Motleys with belly checks produce 100% clear belly Motleys, that had very obvious motley patterns.

There are paradox snows with red scales, paradox amels with black scales even though for decades it's a rule of thumb that this never happens . Do these animals lower the standard for Amels and Snows? Depends on each individual keeper.

The corns decide to break the rules and there is no stopping them. Thank goodness or we wouldn't have all these lovely morphs. Sure you can be a die hard for the rules and label anything with checks as a non motley, but it's sure to come back to bite you when a person 3 years later freaks out that they got 100% Motleys from their pair of het Motleys and they must have some amazing new gene to make this happen. :shrugs: I tend to just label these guys as def het, probaby homo. Thankfully these are popping up only in my low end stuff with the exception of the bandeds. Not like an Anery Motley sells for all that more than an Anery. As far as the Bandeds go, they have an altered pattern dorsally, so why wouldn't they have the ability to create an altered ventral?

 

[medusacoils]

I dont agree, imo they shouldnt have ANY checks.
For Decades thats been then rule of thumb, a way to know if your snake is or isnt a Motley.
First I heard its was ok when Sunkissed Motleys where first tried to be produced,some off spring had only a few checks....Was it a motley? Was it possibly het Motley?
Breaking the rules, to me is lowering our standards and making the already confusing world of cornsnake breeding more confusing.....
In your case its possible that the Opal Motley is Just Opal het Motley
Alot of Opals that are not Motleys dont have belly checks......

My question to you would be; What is the standard???

Christine and I have worked with many different animals. From horses, dogs, cats, mice, gerbils and so on. Corns are the only species I have encountered that there isn't a set and clear standard for any specific morph.

If varies from breeder to breeder and person to person. With widely accepted indicators for standard. Take bloodreds and their head markings. Look how much they vary. Some have the classic "skull" pattern that we all have come to love, while others have no pattern at all. Does that make one a better representation of the morph over the other?

So who is to say that one better represents the "morph" over another, when there is no clear, concise and accepted description of the morph?

I do appreciate your input in this, because I have always felt the way you do. Motleys should not have belly checkers. Now, I don't know what to think?!?! I do know that my Opal is definitely a homo motley and I do know that I put a homo Motley to a homo Motley and got some with belly checks. :shrugs:

Wayne

 

[stephen]

Question

Well, you posted what you had found what the standard for Motley is didnt you?

 

[medusacoils]

Are you saying Homo Motley can have belly checks?
A simple( yes) or (no) answer is what I am looking for please...

I don't know if your question is directed at me or Carol, so I will answer with my opinion and I say NO, they aren't supposed to.

That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. If I was the only person in the snake world to get motleys with belly checks, then I would say that there is more to my snake then what I'm aware of. The problem is that I am not the only person to get belly checks in Motleys, so :shrugs:

Wayne

 

[medusacoils]

Well, you posted what you had found what the standard for Motley is didnt you?

The "standard" is the opinion of many. Does that make it the standard or just a wide opinion?

Who is to say that there is a standard? Do we, the corn community, have an "ethics" committee that determines or sets the standard of each morph, like so many other breeds of animals do?

All we have is the opinion of the masses. :shrugs:

Wayne

 

[stephen]

Yep

I dont disagree there maybe a wierd motley here and there can have checks. Its definetly not something I want to see become as exceptable.

 

[medusacoils]

I dont disagree there maybe a wierd motley here and there can have checks. Its definetly not something I want to see become as exceptable.

I can definitely appreciate that! I prefer to see my motlies without belly checks. At some level, I think there needs to be a set and accepted standard. Not just to motlies, but to all the morphs.

Wayne

 

[Drizzt80]

Ha!! Yer all debatin' over a few belly checks here and there. Hatch yourself out some Motley looking animals from het Stripe only parents that have completely Normal (in quantity and appearence) looking belly checkers and then we can talk dilemma!! :sidestep:

D80

PS. Good luck Wayne!

 

[medusacoils]

Here is a few more pics of him for you to see.

Wayne

PS Brent :rofl:

 

[Drewby07]

I've also heard it theorized that it's possible the "clear belly gene" and "motley pattern gene" are separate, yet popped up together originally.....

I have a pair of golddust mots from Rich Z that have a couple belly checks...I'm definitely not going to get rid of them just because of a few checkers!

 

[Reptileman81]

Here is a few pics of mine. These are Ghost Motleys. They have the same thing. The male only has 1 belly checker on his neck the female thou has a few. They are both from homo Ghost Motleys... The mother even has the same look with a few belly checkers. It is just something that has gotten into the mix. But these snakes as well as yours are still Motleys in my eyes.

First 2 pics male second 2 female and last one of the mother.

 

[stephen]

WOW

I have hatched Ghosts with bald heads and killer diffusion thinking it was a awesome GhostBloodred only to find it had FULL belly checks.
If I ordered a Cinder Motley with belly checks and payed market value on it,then was told rules were meant to be broke,I wouldnt be a happy camper lmao

 

[Nanci]

I can definitely appreciate that! I prefer to see my motlies without belly checks.
At some level, I think there needs to be a set and accepted standard. Not just to motlies, but to all the morphs.

Wayne

But- the genes are what they are. If you breed two unquestionable motley snakes, and get offspring such as yours,
if you _don't_ call them motleys, what are they? The gene defines the look- no matter how the look ends up.
There probably have always been motleys with some checks- they just haven't been commented on, photographed,
brought to public attention. The bigger the sample, the wider the range.

And/or, maybe, as with mask and strawberry, a second gene is there, waiting to be proven.

 

[carol]

If I ordered a Cinder Motley with belly checks and payed market value on it,then was told rules were meant to be broke,I wouldn't be a happy camper lmao

I personally will always be up front about it. It's not something you surprise someone with. I would really rather breed only Motleys with clear bellies, but some people don't mind. If I have checked Mots for sale (which is pretty rare) I will tell the buyer about it before the sale, sometimes offer a discount, and guarantee that the animal will prove to be homo Motley. What I am arguing against is turning a blind eye to the freaks that do pop up and refusing to call them Motley even though I know that is homo Motley. That's just not the right way to go about it. I think it would be better to try and figure out exactly what it is that is causing it, what might cause problems in Motleys might be cool in something else.

Definitions of all kinds of things change when we learn more about them or when they mutate. At one time it was the standard for Snows to be white, at one time it was standard that Blizzards and Charcoals had no yellow. What is a Stripe corn? An animal that has a stripe down it's back according to the standard. Does that mean a Sunkissed Stripe is not a Stripe? Well not when compared against the standard, but that doesn't change the fact that genetically it is. The more we mix and match, the more these things will come up. If Sunkissed can change the way a stripe looks dorsally, why can't something else change the way a Motley looks ventrally?

Here is one of my latest brats....

 

[Susan]

If I ordered a Cinder Motley with belly checks and payed market value on it,then was told rules were meant to be broke,I wouldnt be a happy camper lmao

And you would have every right to be upset...IF you were not told of the anomaly. However, if the breeder was up front with the purchaser about the belly checks and guaranteed the genetics, I see no reason the snake should not be sold as what it is. There may be a bit of price haggling, but I don't think a snake like that should have to be priced as a non-motley just because of a few belly checks.

 

[stephen]

Well...

Has anyone ever bred a Motley with a few belly checks to a Motley with a clear belly ? Would you produce all motleys with clear bellys or some with belly checks?
I dont think belly checks should be on a Homo Motley Cornsnake
I wouldnt consider that one above a Motley

 

[carol]

I've had Motleys with belly checks produce 100% clear belly Motleys, that had very obvious motley patterns.

From above.... I've crossed checked Mots with clear bellies and gotten all clear bellies and typical Motley pattern. My Ok Mot project female does that, she has some checks but produces Motleys that follow the standard, most likely because she is from Banded lines.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

If I ordered a Cinder Motley with belly checks and payed market value on it,then was told rules were meant to be broke,I wouldnt be a happy camper lmao

I've actually been wondering how the 2 will combine. Has anybody even bred a cinder mot yet?