Homo Motley With Belly Checkers??? HOW??

[carol]

I've actually been wondering how the 2 will combine. Has anybody even bred a cinder mot yet?

I missed my odds this year. I'd be suprised if any of them had checks though, most of my Cinders barely have checks. LOL>

 

[Tara80]

After reading through this debate, it made me speculate the idea of having a 'corn snake show', like a sort of Eukanuba Cup for corn snakes.
There could be sections for the best in show for motleys, old school blood reds... I know it sound silly but it would present a reason to keep breeding for the best of the best, rather than settling for certain traits- and would provide an over all acceptable standard for specific quality.

 

[stephen]

Interesting...

I would consider Motleys with belly checks offshoots
I think Walter may have produced Cinder Motleys this year:shrugs:
I know cornsnakes vary alot,its possible that the checks from these could be a marker for they are het?

 

[WingedSweetheart]

After reading through this debate, it made me speculate the idea of having a 'corn snake show', like a sort of Eukanuba Cup for corn snakes.
There could be sections for the best in show for motleys, old school blood reds... I know it sound silly but it would present a reason to keep breeding for the best of the best, rather than settling for certain traits- and would provide an over all acceptable standard for specific quality.

LOL this whole thing with what you said and with motleys made me think of when my parents decided to breed our boxer with the neighbors boxer. We had 9 puppies and one of them was white (could see and hear). But the standard does not accept white boxers but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I think checked motleys may be like this. Some people may see the standard has having a clear belly but that doesn't mean that checked ones do not exist.

 

[medusacoils]

Back in the day, when my wife and I were just bf and gf, she worked for a small pet store that sold dogs. As her bf, I used to hang around the pet store waiting for her to get off work, so we could hang out. This was many many moons ago.

One day, they got in a couple of Norwegian Elkhounds. Oddly, one of these dogs had a tail that didn't curl up, as they should. This lady came into the store and demanded that they changed the breed listed on the kennel, because that dog couldn't possibly be a Norwegian Elkhound because of that lack of tail curl.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree Stephen. I don't agree with labeling an animal one way, just because it doesn't fit a "standard." This is just a case of a variation in the morph. Is it a perfect representation of the morph? NO! None the less, it's still a variation of the morph, just like that Norwegian Elkhound was a Norwegian Elkhound without a curly tail.

Wayne

 

[Tara80]

I totally agree Wayne. Either they are double gened for the trait or they aren't. You cannot just decide that they are 'not homozygous' for a specific gene just because it isn't exhibiting the exact patterns we expect. Although, certain traits might be undesirable for us. It would just be a determination of what we call 'acceptable' for our own standards.

 

[Shiari]

And like ridgless Rhodesians, Shiba Inu with straight tails, and giant pomeranians and pugs.

 

[carol]

I would consider Motleys with belly checks offshoots
I think Walter may have produced Cinder Motleys this year:shrugs:
I know cornsnakes vary alot,its possible that the checks from these could be a marker for they are het?

Walter thought he did but it turns out it wasn't a Motley. Cornsnakes DO vary a lot. If a normal can have clear belly checks, why can't a Motley have checks? We've been told all along that there is no way to tell if an animal is het Motley so changing that now would be breaking rules just the same. I would also wonder why the other het Motleys in the clutch have normal checkers? (The whole clutch should be at least het Motley). I've seen checked Mots produce all clear bellied Mots, I've seen to clear belly Mots produce checked Mots. Anyway you explain it, a rule is broken. Mind you it is extremely rare to find Motleys with belly checks but it does happen. Most Banded Motleys have checks and most Sunkissed Motleys have checks. Has anyone even produced a Sunkissed Motley without belly checks?

I know I have a Ghost with orange eyes, I have Miamis with completely grey heads, I have a Bloodred with big splashes of white, I've seen Snows with red scales, Amels with black scales, and many more oddities. When people see an Amel with some black scales, they never seem to doubt that the animal is actually an Amel. They come to the conclusion that it's an Amel with something very strange going on. Not sure why we can't grasp that these bizarre things can happen in Motley as well. :shrugs: Is it fear that now everyone who has a corn with a few connected saddles will claim it's a Motley because they read it "can" happen? I'm not fighting the rule of thumb and a clear belly is a good prerequisite to have before deeming an animal is a Motley. However, if test breedings or lineage confirms an animal with a few checks is a Motley, than you can write it off as one of those strange exceptions. As much as you want them, there are just no absolutes.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, the problem appears to be that it is us HUMANS that are trying to make standards and definitions that we expect nature to comply with. Basically trying to force a digital template on an analog world for OUR own convenience and compulsion to label and cubbyhole things. Unfortunately, nature really doesn't give a flip about what we want and will invariably *break* any rules we try to make her comply with.

Heck, I've seen motleys with checks on the bellies ever since there were motleys. But I most often saw this effect become VERY pronounced when breeding motley into something NOT a motley, yet also exhibiting a patternless (or partially patternless) abdomen. I think the worst time of it was when I bred motley into the *Milk Snake Phase*, which were an offshoot of the Miami phase that tended towards partially patternless abdomens in many examples. From what I recall, I sold them off as Milk Snake/Motley Corns (which was kind of an implied question mark), but quite likely many people just dropped that "/" symbol over the years (along with that label "Milk Snake Phase") for simplicity sake, also introducing quite a bit of confusion along the line.

Although it seems kind of unlikely that the original Motley line was really two recessive genes combined in the same spontaneous mutation, I guess nothing is really impossible. Especially when Murphy's Law takes a seat at the table.

 

[stephen]

Sunkissed Motleys

Yes I think Jay produced some Sunkissed Motleys this year with clear bellys,I personally wont sell anything with checks as Motleys others can do as they please.....
I just hope this wont ever apply to the Bloodreds..

 

[carol]

Yes I think Jay produced some Sunkissed Motleys this year with clear bellys,I personally wont sell anything with checks as Motleys others can do as they please.....
I just hope this wont ever apply to the Bloodreds..

Really? Even if you were sure both parents were Motleys? :shrugs:

Kind of funny that we've gone from possible hets to possible homos. :crazy02:

 

[Reptileman81]

Has anyone ever bred a Motley with a few belly checks to a Motley with a clear belly ? Would you produce all motleys with clear bellys or some with belly checks?
I dont think belly checks should be on a Homo Motley Cornsnake
I wouldnt consider that one above a Motley

The pics of the parents and babies I posted on page 4 had the belly checkers as adults. The father has none and the mother has a few. I will post better pics of the parents so you can see. Both mom, dad and babies have the washed mattern on there sides but right now it seems the girls are getting checkers. I did not produce these this year. I got them in on a trade all 4 of them. So next year I will put up more about this subject.

After reading through this debate, it made me speculate the idea of having a 'corn snake show', like a sort of Eukanuba Cup for corn snakes.
There could be sections for the best in show for motleys, old school blood reds... I know it sound silly but it would present a reason to keep breeding for the best of the best, rather than settling for certain traits- and would provide an over all acceptable standard for specific quality.

I think that would be awesome!!! I was thinking it would be really cool to have a reptile breeding computer or playstation game. Kinda like Sims but you breed reptiles and go to reptile shows and sell reptiles. Man I need to call someone that makes games this thing sounds awesome lol.


The first 3 pics are the father the last 2 the mother.

 

[Reptileman81]

As you can see they both have the normal motley side pattern but here is the females belly the mother and daughter. They have the belly checkers. The babie male that came from these as well only has 1 checker on his neck.

 

[FireDrake]

I thought that maybe she had some retained sperm, but when I spoke to her breeder, she was bred to a Homo Motley last year. :shrugs:

Wayne, I didnt hatch that snake, Kat from Corn Quest did, and I bred her to a bloodred het amel and charcoal last year.

I got normals, one amel and four ultramels and some of them had decreased belly checkers, so maybe there is some strange belly checker gene in her. I only have photos of two hatchling bellies, both ultramels.... but I remember others having strange bellies as well, but none looked even remotely like motlies. Also, two DIE babies had very odd stripe marking and as far as I know neither parent had any striping in their backgrounds

Sarah

 

[Nanci]

Interesting that Rich should mention reduced belly checks in milksnake-phase Miamis.
I have a clutch from a Miami Motley male and a Milksnake-Phase Miami female.
All the babies have very reduced belly checks. The motley father has no checks,
and the milksnake mother has very bold, large, black checks.

 

[TandJ]

Originally Posted by stephen
Yes I think Jay produced some Sunkissed Motleys this year with clear bellys,I personally wont sell anything with checks as Motleys others can do as they please.....
I just hope this wont ever apply to the Bloodreds..

Really? Even if you were sure both parents were Motleys? :shrugs:

Kind of funny that we've gone from possible hets to possible homos. :crazy02:

I totally agree Wayne. Either they are double gened for the trait or they aren't. You cannot just decide that they are 'not homozygous' for a specific gene just because it isn't exhibiting the exact patterns we expect. Although, certain traits might be undesirable for us. It would just be a determination of what we call 'acceptable' for our own standards.

Its always wise to err on the side of the customer.. I would rather give it away than have it bite me in the ass, regardless of what the known genetics the parents carried.. Its called CYA.. Thats not being stupid in business, thats being intelligent and being there for your customer rather than being there for your wallet. Of course I know I would be called out on a suspicious looking animal right off the bat, so I can't even be bothered to play that game...

 

[medusacoils]

Its always wise to err on the side of the customer.. I would rather give it away than have it bite me in the ass, regardless of what the known genetics the parents carried.. Its called CYA.. Thats not being stupid in business, thats being intelligent and being there for your customer rather than being there for your wallet. Of course I know I would be called out on a suspicious looking animal right off the bat, so I can't even be bothered to play that game...

I agree!! CYA is a "motto" of mine. Really!!

The question is; Would I errr on the side of caution and call the animal a het, when in all likely its a homo? ~OR~ Would I errr on the side of caution and be up front with any potential customers about the belly checks?

I think the latter is the better choice, but that's just me. :shrugs:

I don't think there is a wrong answer. Either would work.

Wayne

 

[TandJ]

The question is; Would I errr on the side of caution and call the animal a het, when in all likely its a homo? ~OR~ Would I errr on the side of caution and be up front with any potential customers about the belly checks?

I think the latter is the better choice, but that's just me. :shrugs:

I don't think there is a wrong answer. Either would work.

Homo or not homo, if there is a chance of some doubt by a customer, its not worth any value to me to argue with them about belly checks or not.. I can't ever see myself willing to put my neck on the line regardless of what the homozygous genetics should predict.. My butt is worth more than the mud my name could get dragged through, and besides, I know people well enough, that they are likely to forget about what I may have been up front about earlier on...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Tara80]

CYA can be done in a straight up and honest fashion though - meaning displaying the parentage and explaining the results from the breeding. Personally, all I would do is just mark them as a 'poor quality motley' (unless there is a chance of retained sperm) and sell them for extremely low prices.

 

[TandJ]

CYA can be done in a straight up and honest fashion though - meaning displaying the parentage and explaining the results from the breeding. Personally, all I would do is just mark them as a 'poor quality motley' (unless there is a chance of retained sperm) and sell them for extremely low prices.

Believe me, whether people think I am prick or not, I am very straight up and very honest with my dealings.. I would just mark them as normal patterned...

I think I had my say here, and I won't need to participate in this particular disscussion..