• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

HR 511 ‘Python Ban’ Goes To Hearing

I agree with most of what you posted. BUT - there are some omissions.

Of course adult Burmese pythons have few predators other than humans. But during at least their first year, they are no larger than many native snakes, and fall prey to the same alligators, mammals, and kingsnakes that other snakes fall prey to. And while the adult pythons don't usually fall to those predators, they do succumb to extreme cold snaps, unlike most (but not all) native animals. While I believe they will never be eradicated from the southernmost parts of Florida, the cold does hold them in check, prevent them from succeeding further north, and reduces their numbers drastically every few years during extreme cold snaps, even in the Glades.

And I most certainly agree that SOME pythons (along with almost every other kind of pet, reptile or not) has been released someplace, sometime, whether on purpose or by accident. I can't imagine any herper denying that. What I do take exception to is the myriad newspaper articles making it sound like a long line of irresponsible keepers winds down through the Glades, waiting to release their snakes. Ok, a bit of an exaggeration - but not much! How many jaded python owners drive all the way down to the Glades (it is quite a ways from the populated coastal areas) to release unwanted pets? If they are that irresponsible, they probably release them in the nearest wild area to where they live. But most of the early sightings were deep in Everglades National Park, not near populated areas.

It sounds as though you are saying that because a few people were irresponsible, banning (not just regulating) for all is justified? And that because they can and will survive in southernmost Florida, banning them from the whole US is justified? If that is your position, I don't understand the logic of it.
 
Curious as to why you are so worried about the snakes, when the mass amount of draining in the everglades, feral pigs, and over hunting of american alligators are the biggest threats? Also quite irate that you are saying pet owners did it.. Same point as Kathy made. If I had a snake to dump (which would be odd considering so many people buy them) I sure wouldn't pack up and bring it to Florida. I'd throw it out in the park closest to my house. You don't hear of pythons and boas being found out here over summer when its still warm enough to survive.
 
I don't really have anything to say that most of you haven't already covered. There are far more important things to worry about, and the snakes can't survive cold winters. I just don't have it in me right now to type it all out as you guys have, I feel like it's a pointless battle and I'm disgusted with how ignorant the "sheeple" can be. (best analagy ever BB) Our rights are being taken away, couldn't agree more. I donate to USARK whenever possible and as a snake owner in the bible belt I try to educate as many as I can.
 
Tavia said:
It was more an "act of God" (in insurance parlance, not that I think God had anything to do with it) than even an act of human carelessness.
Click to expand...

Right. See all those cattle egrets everywhere here? Act of God. Non-native birds, blown here to the US in a storm. And they like it here!

They _do_ know where the majority of the Burmese pythons came from. They have DNA tested them. They escaped from breeding facilities during the hurricane.

One thing about Burms and winter. A captive group was studied. So far, they do not know how to seek shelter from freezing temperatures, so they are limited in their expansion, for now. However, I have read that in their native land, some at higher elevations _have_ learned how to do so. (I read this in one of the recent "positive" press releases).
 
kaypar2011 said:
If people did not release unwanted non native snakes where they can breed and threaten the native wildlife, this would not be an issue. Snake owners must be responsible. I know I will get beat up for this, but I live in Florida and the Anacondas, Boas and Pythons are a real problem in the Everglades and south Florida. They are not native to this country and they did not get there on their own, they were put there by irresponsible owners.
Click to expand...

Regardless of how they got there, do you think preventing interstate commerce, or preventing Florida residents from owning them will solve the problem now? What if there was an open season for snake hunting, like there is for the now-thriving American alligators? (Well, that's not really an open season, it's a lottery, right?)
 
Nanci said:
So far, they do not know how to seek shelter from freezing temperatures
Click to expand...
So how did they survive the weeks of freezing temps in 2010?
As far as I know there is only one way for a reptile to survive in freezing temps....seek shelter from the cold.
The fact that they have been surviving and reproducing in Florida for such a long time is proof of their ability to cope with occasional freezing temps.
 
From what I have read, the studies and articles published by USARK, many did _not_ survive. The colony in the experiment was in South Carolina. You can find the research on the USARK page.
 
Like someone else said, the politicians are not going to look at or believe legitimate data on the python situation. I do agree that most of the problem came from a breeding facility being hit by the huricane. The numbers are just too large for it to be just released pets. The cold on the other hand, it seems it would hit larger snakes before smaller specimens. For the smaller ones having an easier time of finding sanctuary from the elements.
 
"So how did they survive the weeks of freezing temps in 2010?"

Most did not. A few were lucky enough to happen to be in a sheltered area, and survived. They will build up their numbers for a few years until another devastating freeze, which will again kill all but the lucky few who happen to be sheltered for the cold night. There will always be a lucky few who make it through to again repopulate. But further north, it will be too cold even for those in sheltered areas. So even if some survive a few years in central Florida, a bad freeze will kill ALL of them instead of just most of them.

If I remember correctly, 10 pythons were being radio monitored during the severe Glades freeze a few years ago. I believe that 9 died that night, and the 10th either died later or was euthanized due to respiratory problems. And those were all animals in the southern most areas of Florida. That same year, a facility in Gainesville (north Florida) had several of them in a large outdoor cage that had heated refugia available. But tropical snakes are programed to lay outside during cool nights in order to catch the first sun rays in the morning so they can warm up and go about their business. They are not programmed to go underground for warmth, and all died without using the heated hide boxes.

And about the same time, a huge (maybe an acre?) enclosure had been provided for several Burmese pythons on the Ga / SC (Savannah River Ecology Lab) border to see if they could find enough natural cover to survive a winter. They all died, too.

So lots of research projects have tried to prove the government scientists are correct that the pythons can survive the cold. But nobody has proven them right so far.
 
kathylove said:
"So how did they survive the weeks of freezing temps in 2010?"

Most did not. A few were lucky enough to happen to be in a sheltered area, and survived.
Click to expand...
Kathy, that just doesn't match the collection data. In both 2011 & 2012 good numbers of pythons are still being found by python hunters..not just a few.
http://burmesepythonhunter.blogspot.com/p/python-captures.html
If only a few survived finding any at all would be very difficult...but it's easier to find a python in the everglades than a few secretive native species. Python hunters are still finding huge gravid adults, hatchlings and yearlings.
 
Heflick said 46 have been caught in the last 3 years...which is apparently down from previous years.
 
"Few" is a relative number. Considering how many were estimated to be living in the Glades before the freeze, a few hundred to a few thousand would still be a few.

Whether they do well or poorly in ENP is almost beside the point, IMO. The fact that many die in cold weather there, no matter how many others survive there, still means that even in the most ideal conditions in the continental US, conditions are barely survivable for them. Florida has already banned them as pets. So if laws can accomplish avoiding adding more to what is already there, then it is already accomplished. What more can be accomplished (besides taking away rights for little or no reason) by involving the federal gov't in what should be decisions made by individual states, based on their own climates and conditions? If they can't even survive in north Florida, why are we worried about them in the rest of the country?
 
kathylove said:
"Few" is a relative number. Considering how many were estimated to be living in the Glades before the freeze, a few hundred to a few thousand would still be a few.

Whether they do well or poorly in ENP is almost beside the point, IMO. The fact that many die in cold weather there, no matter how many others survive there, still means that even in the most ideal conditions in the continental US, conditions are barely survivable for them. Florida has already banned them as pets. So if laws can accomplish avoiding adding more to what is already there, then it is already accomplished. What more can be accomplished (besides taking away rights for little or no reason) by involving the federal gov't in what should be decisions made by individual states, based on their own climates and conditions? If they can't even survive in north Florida, why are we worried about them in the rest of the country?
Click to expand...

You just said what I wanted to say only better.
 
Interesting. I hadn't seen that study!

In summary, we find that statistically generated ecological niche models based on presence localities for the Burmese python and extensive climatic datasets predict the current distribution of the snakes with a high degree of accuracy. This suggests that these models will be particularly useful in identifying other areas of extralimital habitat. Regarding areas of putative suitability and potential expansion within the United States, we find, remarkably, that the area in which the snakes are known to have colonized (south Florida) is essentially the only region where the climatic conditions are suitable for the pythons. Almost no potential for further continental expansion is predicted based on the results from the ecological niche models. Additionally, we find that under projected models of global climate change the worldwide suitable habitat decreases significantly. This is in contrast to the results of Rodda et al. [2]. Based on the results of our analyses, we find that global climate change has the potential to greatly reduce the available habitat for the pythons, especially in their native range (Fig. 4). This pattern is likely not unique to the Burmese python and may potentially apply to many species, not only snakes.
 
You said good things there, Ms Love. I'm glad to hear that the burm population is having distinct troubles in expanding its new range, though i'm sorry to hear about the studies on snakes involving freezing them to death. This legislation won't help much in our country, though i do support the ban on many of these species simply because of their size. I know that they are not quite the same as large warm-blooded predators, but these animals should not be living in private homes, if only because they require a staff of people to care for each one.

Please do not mistake this as an insult to personal skill or talent with animals. I expect that many of the experts currently working in reptile areas of zoos would have their husbandry butts kicked by members of this forum. These animals, though, do not belong in private residences, no matter how cool they may be. It's not an aggression thing, nor an expense thing, but simply a matter of the size and nature of the animal. A hungry rock python could eat me, and though I have no fear of one (I save my fear for crocodilians), large predators should not be in the home, no matter the securities in place.

That being said, the frick is the problem with boa constrictors? These snakes can be a handful, but are certainly not dangerous to anything more than a child's rabbit or perhaps a newborn human. I'm surprised to see an animal half, or a third in some cases, the size of the rest viewed as a threat. It's simple fear mongering.

As to the police state idea hovering in some of this, this is hardly an infringement of civil rights. This is mainly the state deciding which goods you can and cannot buy, which has happened since government first began establishing trade with other nations and managing out domestic economy. Free economy has always meant being free to buy into the system that has been set up for us. This is not the first step to a police state. I believe that, if passed, it will be a highly restrictive measure on a small portion of our population, which is unfair. It won't keep the rest of us safe either, but that's an argument for another day.
 
Watching now... how is there no accountability for the skewed statistics and outright false facts proposed by the "witnesses" for the ban? It almost seems like they can say whatever they like mixing the truth with lies with no consequence. I don't get it.
 
"...These animals, though, do not belong in private residences, no matter how cool they may be. It's not an aggression thing, nor an expense thing, but simply a matter of the size and nature of the animal..."

I still have to disagree with this statement. I am not totally against regulation, or possibly even bans, of SOME items that have a high possibility of public injury - such as high explosives or large amounts of gasoline storage in a subdivision house, maybe? But IMO, that danger has to be REAL, compared to other items that are commonly, or at least legally, kept in private homes. And I do not consider danger to the occupants of that home to be the business of the government (except in the case of children, which should be prosecuted under child neglect or endangerment laws - a different concept than general public safety). Adults who choose to participate in risky sports or hobbies such as race car driving, boxing, animal keeping, etc, should not be prohibited from their pursuit unless it is likely to adversely affect other citizens not involved - IMHO, of course.

AFAIK, NOBODY in the US has ever been seriously injured (requiring medical help) by a "giant" snake unless they were involved in some way (owners, friends assisting or visiting, etc). And even those cases are extremely rare. If there was a case of an uninvolved party being injured (such as an innocent bystander attacked by an escaped snake), it has to be so rare that I haven't heard about it. And if it is that rare, then why is it important to ban (not regulate, but ban) those animals from all private possession, no matter the facility, location, or ability of the owner? If we look at the statistics logically rather than emotionally, and decide to ban all potentially dangerous items that have caused more injuries than giant snakes in our country, we are going to be missing a lot of common power tools, ATVs and other recreational items, vehicles, guns, household cutlery, dogs, horses - wow! The list would go on and on!!
 
Dale said:
Watching now... how is there no accountability for the skewed statistics and outright false facts proposed by the "witnesses" for the ban? It almost seems like they can say whatever they like mixing the truth with lies with no consequence. I don't get it.
Click to expand...

Politicians lie about everything to get what they want. Why would this be any different?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top