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Hybrid Markers List
- Thread starter Drizzt80
- Start date
Tula_Montage
It's Jager time!
What I find interesting is when amels are het caramel. There was a discussion on the caramel gene in het form showing through in some cases. There was a picture posted recently of a deffinate pure corn that LOOKED creamsicle to me. It was indeed het caramel. But it has something that didn't quite look right.
But with no offical standards in corn snake morphs what exactly are we looking for?!
But with no offical standards in corn snake morphs what exactly are we looking for?!
Vinman
Vinman
Drizzt80 said:
almost right, real good guess B. is a mex intergrade all 3 mexicana X grayband that was crossed into a corn they are seconed gen. of this cross . now look real hard at B. See the stripe in the first saddle that is a sine of mexicania. Mex Mex, and even greers have it sometimes look at the whole snake what tells you that is not a pure corn what do you see. If I had this snake at a show on my table and put miami phase what would come to your mind?
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
Vinman--
I understand what you are saying about there not being any way to put into words exactly what it is that set off the "hybrid alarm". But obviously, there is. A few people have done it quite well.
It's akin to when I was a bouncer. Nobody could tell me what to look for to find a fake ID. But they could tell me what was expected on a REAL ID. Through trial and error, I got erally good at picking out fake IDs. I have never seen a real South Dakota driver's license, but I am reasonably confident that if you handed me a fake one without telling me it was fake, I would know it.
It's not because I know what fake SD driver's license looks like, it's because there are specific criteria associated with ALL government issued IDs that can be identified, and if they aren't there, it's not real.
The same can be true of identifying hybrids, albeit a bit more difficult.
Dean very nicely and succintly pointed out exactly what it was that he saw that told him "hybrid" vs. "pure". And in reality, I think that is all that Drizz is looking for.
The truth is, there is no "cut and dry" system for discerning the differences between hybrids and pure corns. And I think that is the point of the topic. We keep seeing the words "hybrid markers" tossed around as "proof" of hybridization, but very rarely is there a definitive answer as to exactly what it is that makes one so positive about these "markers". I believe the point intended with the topic is to show that these "markers" that get tossed around as if they were "proof", are really nothing more than a visual interpretation. They are subject entirely to one's own experience and perception of the snake they are lookinmg at.
Could a pure corn resemble a hybrid? Yes. Could a hybrid resemble a pure corn? Absolutely. And that is the point. For all of the accusations that get flung around hap-hazardly, there really is no cut and dry proof that a snake is a hybrid, unless it is very clearly and obviously visually identifiable as one, such as the pictures you e-mailed to me to post.
I think it is important to make that very clear when accusations that could hurt a breeder's reputation are being hurled in their direction. Even if it is a matter of hurting someone's feelings, rather than a money-making reputation. The use of the phrase "hybrid markers" implies some sort of factual and/or indisputable visual evidence that the snake is a hybrid, and those simply don't exist in every case. In some cases...yes, absolutely. But not in all cases, and certainly not always accurately...
I understand what you are saying about there not being any way to put into words exactly what it is that set off the "hybrid alarm". But obviously, there is. A few people have done it quite well.
It's akin to when I was a bouncer. Nobody could tell me what to look for to find a fake ID. But they could tell me what was expected on a REAL ID. Through trial and error, I got erally good at picking out fake IDs. I have never seen a real South Dakota driver's license, but I am reasonably confident that if you handed me a fake one without telling me it was fake, I would know it.
It's not because I know what fake SD driver's license looks like, it's because there are specific criteria associated with ALL government issued IDs that can be identified, and if they aren't there, it's not real.
The same can be true of identifying hybrids, albeit a bit more difficult.
Dean very nicely and succintly pointed out exactly what it was that he saw that told him "hybrid" vs. "pure". And in reality, I think that is all that Drizz is looking for.
The truth is, there is no "cut and dry" system for discerning the differences between hybrids and pure corns. And I think that is the point of the topic. We keep seeing the words "hybrid markers" tossed around as "proof" of hybridization, but very rarely is there a definitive answer as to exactly what it is that makes one so positive about these "markers". I believe the point intended with the topic is to show that these "markers" that get tossed around as if they were "proof", are really nothing more than a visual interpretation. They are subject entirely to one's own experience and perception of the snake they are lookinmg at.
Could a pure corn resemble a hybrid? Yes. Could a hybrid resemble a pure corn? Absolutely. And that is the point. For all of the accusations that get flung around hap-hazardly, there really is no cut and dry proof that a snake is a hybrid, unless it is very clearly and obviously visually identifiable as one, such as the pictures you e-mailed to me to post.
I think it is important to make that very clear when accusations that could hurt a breeder's reputation are being hurled in their direction. Even if it is a matter of hurting someone's feelings, rather than a money-making reputation. The use of the phrase "hybrid markers" implies some sort of factual and/or indisputable visual evidence that the snake is a hybrid, and those simply don't exist in every case. In some cases...yes, absolutely. But not in all cases, and certainly not always accurately...
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Exactly my point and I am honestly looking for a list to be created which Roy and dionythicus started for us. These two statements mean two completely different things:tyflier said:
1. That snake is a creamsicle. It has the "hybrid markers".
2. That snake looks like it could be a creamsicle.
So am I to assume that the other 3 were correct? If so, then 75% (+ extra credit since mex mex and gray bands are visually pretty similar) isn't so bad then . . . too bad for you that my intent wasn't for you to teach me how to identify hybrids. :eek1: As much as you'd still like to pretend that's the reason anyway. :shrugs:Vinman said:
D80
Actually it doesn't even need to be visual markers, as far as color, pattern, or body/head shape. Sometimes just the way a snake ACTS can be a marker.
I've worked with a fair number of snakes over the years, and as an average they all act differently in one or more respects. But it is seriously difficult to put this down in words as to what those markers really are. Heck, even the impression I get looking into the eyes of a snake can be telling. Rat snakes and corns just appear different to me when I look into their eyes.
Feed response, and quickness to get agitated or tolerate handling can also be telling. Breeding activity and the manner in which they lay eggs, can also be clues.
Well at least some of those used to be fairly reliable, in my opinion. I'll be honest with everyone, the Sunkisseds severely set me back on my heels about my hoped for ability to be able to tell a hybrid. If it had been anyone but Kathy Love (and maybe a VERY few other people) telling me it is a pure corn, I never EVER would have believed it. This is the ONLY incident I can recall where I had to trust the source and not my instincts about an animal.
That animal, above all else, severely compromised my self esteem in being able to recognize what I felt are "pure" corns.
So with that being said, the ability to tell the difference just became much less of an issue with me. Because at this time I cannot point to some other snake and say it is POSITIVELY a hybrid and explain why, and in the same breath point to a Sunkissed and say it is a pure corn, and explain WHY also.
So if anyone else can do this, PLEASE let me know how you do it.
I've worked with a fair number of snakes over the years, and as an average they all act differently in one or more respects. But it is seriously difficult to put this down in words as to what those markers really are. Heck, even the impression I get looking into the eyes of a snake can be telling. Rat snakes and corns just appear different to me when I look into their eyes.
Feed response, and quickness to get agitated or tolerate handling can also be telling. Breeding activity and the manner in which they lay eggs, can also be clues.
Well at least some of those used to be fairly reliable, in my opinion. I'll be honest with everyone, the Sunkisseds severely set me back on my heels about my hoped for ability to be able to tell a hybrid. If it had been anyone but Kathy Love (and maybe a VERY few other people) telling me it is a pure corn, I never EVER would have believed it. This is the ONLY incident I can recall where I had to trust the source and not my instincts about an animal.
That animal, above all else, severely compromised my self esteem in being able to recognize what I felt are "pure" corns.
So with that being said, the ability to tell the difference just became much less of an issue with me. Because at this time I cannot point to some other snake and say it is POSITIVELY a hybrid and explain why, and in the same breath point to a Sunkissed and say it is a pure corn, and explain WHY also.
So if anyone else can do this, PLEASE let me know how you do it.
Vinman
Vinman
Drizzt80 said:
Like I said I gave you credit you did a good job now if I didn't know what was the genitc make up of B. is was I would have guessed mex mex or greers X corn I dont see any gray band in it. but it is 1/4 th. I think that if we post a pic of a hybrid and dicuss what makes it look diffrent. point out things like the body/head shape, color and pattren. that would be the marker for that snake . It would be nice if I had 5 or 6 pics of each cross so we could compare the varibles
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyflier again.
And Rich has made some excellent points as well.
Brent, you have your list...color, pattern, head shape/size, behavior. Unfortunately, they simply cannot be broken down any further without a specific snake being discussed. You can look at one particular snake and list each individual "marker" that indicates it as probably, or definitely, being a hybrid. Some snake may only have one while others may have quite a few. To say that a 75% corn 25% Cali king always shows "X" head pattern, "Y" head shape and "Z" color is incorrect and cannot be done. And in the case of my new little hybrid, I don't even think Vinny could positively identify the cross without knowing it beforehand.
And Rich has made some excellent points as well.
Brent, you have your list...color, pattern, head shape/size, behavior. Unfortunately, they simply cannot be broken down any further without a specific snake being discussed. You can look at one particular snake and list each individual "marker" that indicates it as probably, or definitely, being a hybrid. Some snake may only have one while others may have quite a few. To say that a 75% corn 25% Cali king always shows "X" head pattern, "Y" head shape and "Z" color is incorrect and cannot be done. And in the case of my new little hybrid, I don't even think Vinny could positively identify the cross without knowing it beforehand.
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Yes and no. For years I have been increasingly frustrated with those that very quickly point the "hybrid" finger as a definite conclusion to a picture. Let me repeat . . . those that say "That IS a hybrid." based on its appearance. If it's that definite, I truly would like to formulate a list of those markers. Am I unaware of what they are? No, I have my subset of characteristics from looking at enough pictures. What I find interesting is that one image/snake can be immediately pointed at as hybrid and a very similar one two threads over is applauded for its corn heritage. (That's a bit of an exaggeration, but hopefully you know what I mean.)Drewby07 said:
Susan, agreed! I think it's blatantly obvious when you have a kingsnake/milksnake cross compared to an elaphe/pantherophus cross. Head shape and pattern being the most obvious in the king/milk crosses.Susan said:
My hand was "slapped" (tongue in cheek) at one point in questioning the Anery C heritage a bit due to it's higher saddle count. I was under the impression that most creamsicles/emoryi crosses had higher saddle counts as well. So why wasn't Anery C questioned? There's also the 'frosting' that's associated with supposed gray rat crosses. There was a thread last fall that had an off colored amel in it with an somewhat odd shaped head that was questioned. And of course there's the entire Ultra discussion currently taking place. :shrugs:
With the "hybrid markers" finger being pointed so much recently there has to be some quantifiable characteristics that can be written down . . . and they have been compiled in this thread! But, it's also NOT cut and dried, and IMO people pointing the hybrid finger need to be less definite and more questioning in their approach . . . which is something I personally have tried to do when I've had a sideways look at any particular snake. Does that make sense?! I hope so.
D80
PS. Thanks Rich for the "behavior" addition to the discussion! Hadn't quite thought of that angle so much!!
PPS. And yes, I do know there's a certain amount of "touch" and "prior knowledge" that needs to go into the identification of hybrids. BUT that ability also needs to be based on quantifiable information and characteristics!! ie. I can't tell my swimmers that you just need to get in the water and move around and eventually you figure out the feel of swimming . . . there's more to it than that - a skill set that has to go along with it - even for the "natural" swimmers.
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
I agree with alot of what you're saying. To look at any particular snake and say it is definitely a hybrid by appearance only really shouldn't be done. In some cases, you can be 99.9% correct in calling it a hybrid, but there are many instances that you really can't be 100% sure. The cases of ultra, anery C and frosted being excellent examples.
There have been some excellent points brought up in those discussion threads. The most convincing is that if those genes originated in non-cornsnake species/subspecies/whatever, why haven't those genes been demonstrated in "pure" specimens of those species/subspecies/whatever? In the case of frosted, I think it has shown itself, but it has also shown up in "pure" corn lines as well. I actually think the frosted look is exactly that, a look that has been selectively bred for but can also just "happen", very similar to the zigzag/aztec pattern in how it reproduces itself. I've seen corns and intergrades/hybrids alike with varying degrees of frosting.
Carol pretty well explained why some of her anery C's have a higher saddle count. Yes, I agree that it can be an indication of an intergrade/hybrid, but again, we shouldn't say it is a 100% guaranteed indicator. It has been shown that other factors can create a higher saddle count in certain individuals. I have a couple of corns that have a higher than "normal" saddle count, but who is to say what is "normal"? You could probably take all the saddle counts of all the corns in each breeders' collection, come up with a bell curve for each breeder, then compare them to each other and create yet another bell curve with certain breeders being at each end strictly because of the number of related corns in their collection. Carol's particular bell curve would probably be very wide as she has both her higher count anery C line as well as her banded/milksnake line with it's much lower saddle count.
And in all honesty, who can positively, 100% guarantee, cross their hearts and hope to die swear that each and every cornsnake in their entire collection is 100% pure, never-ever, not even 100 years ago had a single non-corn gene enter the bloodline? I sure as heck couldn't! I've had several wild-caught snakes in my collection that now have their genes mixed into multiple individuals/lines in my collection. Rich himself has gotten many snakes from the wild over the years. That's where many of the genes we now have came from. Can Rich swear that any of those snakes didn't have a single black rat parent six generations ago? How long has it taken to find and identify all the currently known genes? And we still haven't found them all. I really don't know if the other rat snakes have been as interbred as cornsnakes or not. For all we know, there may be the lavender, anery C, caramel, whatever genes in those species as well. We just haven't isolated them yet. We already have similar genes in other species, such as anery and hypo Hondurans. Could they be the same gene? Maybe. We have color mutation hybrids already so we know that something must be compatible somewhere.
Trying to boil everything down, IMO, arguing over what is a hybrid, an intergrade and a pure corn isn't going to matter much in 500 years. Look at how much man has altered and varied the dog over time, and he didn't have all the other wonderful species to breed with it. We are able to mix cornsnakes, kingsnakes, milksnakes and who knows what else into the pot! Sometime, somewhere, someone is going to hatch out the robin's egg blue "cornsnake" that is my heart's desire! I just hope to be alive to see it.
There have been some excellent points brought up in those discussion threads. The most convincing is that if those genes originated in non-cornsnake species/subspecies/whatever, why haven't those genes been demonstrated in "pure" specimens of those species/subspecies/whatever? In the case of frosted, I think it has shown itself, but it has also shown up in "pure" corn lines as well. I actually think the frosted look is exactly that, a look that has been selectively bred for but can also just "happen", very similar to the zigzag/aztec pattern in how it reproduces itself. I've seen corns and intergrades/hybrids alike with varying degrees of frosting.
Carol pretty well explained why some of her anery C's have a higher saddle count. Yes, I agree that it can be an indication of an intergrade/hybrid, but again, we shouldn't say it is a 100% guaranteed indicator. It has been shown that other factors can create a higher saddle count in certain individuals. I have a couple of corns that have a higher than "normal" saddle count, but who is to say what is "normal"? You could probably take all the saddle counts of all the corns in each breeders' collection, come up with a bell curve for each breeder, then compare them to each other and create yet another bell curve with certain breeders being at each end strictly because of the number of related corns in their collection. Carol's particular bell curve would probably be very wide as she has both her higher count anery C line as well as her banded/milksnake line with it's much lower saddle count.
And in all honesty, who can positively, 100% guarantee, cross their hearts and hope to die swear that each and every cornsnake in their entire collection is 100% pure, never-ever, not even 100 years ago had a single non-corn gene enter the bloodline? I sure as heck couldn't! I've had several wild-caught snakes in my collection that now have their genes mixed into multiple individuals/lines in my collection. Rich himself has gotten many snakes from the wild over the years. That's where many of the genes we now have came from. Can Rich swear that any of those snakes didn't have a single black rat parent six generations ago? How long has it taken to find and identify all the currently known genes? And we still haven't found them all. I really don't know if the other rat snakes have been as interbred as cornsnakes or not. For all we know, there may be the lavender, anery C, caramel, whatever genes in those species as well. We just haven't isolated them yet. We already have similar genes in other species, such as anery and hypo Hondurans. Could they be the same gene? Maybe. We have color mutation hybrids already so we know that something must be compatible somewhere.
Trying to boil everything down, IMO, arguing over what is a hybrid, an intergrade and a pure corn isn't going to matter much in 500 years. Look at how much man has altered and varied the dog over time, and he didn't have all the other wonderful species to breed with it. We are able to mix cornsnakes, kingsnakes, milksnakes and who knows what else into the pot! Sometime, somewhere, someone is going to hatch out the robin's egg blue "cornsnake" that is my heart's desire! I just hope to be alive to see it.
Vinman
Vinman
Me and drizzt80 have gone at it tooth and nail most of the times. Got to say we both behaved!!! I think this was a great thread, even though drizzt80 didn't get the answer he wanted. It exposed a lot about facts and myths in identifying hybrids with so called markers . Every snake has markers pure or hybrid but not all snakes have the same markers and each snake has to be taken on a individual bassis for indentification.
Corns and ratsnakes crossbred in nature all the time. Crosses between the two are found many times a year in the wild . So with that in mind how can we call a it a hybrid, if thats the case I think most of the southren population of corns are hybirds them selves. I have not seen or heard of any hybrids in the northern population of corns. Most people dont know but there is two populations of corn North and South. both populations have a diffrent scale count. So how much do we realy know about corn snakes for all we know through DNA testing we might have to re-classifiy corns. The north and south populations might be broken into subspicies of eachother. I found this out a few years ago that the two distinct populations of corns have a scale count that was diffrent. Inbetween southren Va. and northren NC is where they split there is sopposed to be no corns found in this range. I only know of one found by Gearld Salmon a few years ago. So is our beloved corn changing into two diffrent species. Allready they have a diffrent scale count in the north and south and I know for a fact that the southren population intergrates with ratsnakes????? So what is the marker for a pure corn if the southren population crossbreds with ratsnakes and have diffrent scale count in each population.????? :shrugs:
Corns and ratsnakes crossbred in nature all the time. Crosses between the two are found many times a year in the wild . So with that in mind how can we call a it a hybrid, if thats the case I think most of the southren population of corns are hybirds them selves. I have not seen or heard of any hybrids in the northern population of corns. Most people dont know but there is two populations of corn North and South. both populations have a diffrent scale count. So how much do we realy know about corn snakes for all we know through DNA testing we might have to re-classifiy corns. The north and south populations might be broken into subspicies of eachother. I found this out a few years ago that the two distinct populations of corns have a scale count that was diffrent. Inbetween southren Va. and northren NC is where they split there is sopposed to be no corns found in this range. I only know of one found by Gearld Salmon a few years ago. So is our beloved corn changing into two diffrent species. Allready they have a diffrent scale count in the north and south and I know for a fact that the southren population intergrates with ratsnakes????? So what is the marker for a pure corn if the southren population crossbreds with ratsnakes and have diffrent scale count in each population.????? :shrugs:
Drewby07
curiocreatures.com
I think the term "marker".....as used by Drizzt80 is something like "a phenotypic trait that is ALWAYS present in an animal of a certain genotype."
Basically saying: "If your snake shows trait X, it will ALWAYS carry Y gene" and "If your snake carries gene Y it will ALWAYS show trait X". The important thing is the "ALWAYS".
An example that comes to mind is in Ball Pythons. There is a specific stripe pattern that occurs near the vent of animals that are het for the "pied" trait. I believe this is still being proven definitely.....but you get the idea. If proven, anyone with an animal showing this trait could say with 100% certainty that their animal is "het for pied".
Drizzt is asking, if there are DEFINITE markers, like some pattern anomaly or something that ALWAYS indicate a certain gene.
While Vinman is likely very adept at pointing out the subtle nuances that identify certain ancestry in a snake, I believe Drizzt is looking for something that is more definite than subjective.
Or maybe I'm totally wrong and you guys can tell me to shut up. :shrugs:
Basically saying: "If your snake shows trait X, it will ALWAYS carry Y gene" and "If your snake carries gene Y it will ALWAYS show trait X". The important thing is the "ALWAYS".
An example that comes to mind is in Ball Pythons. There is a specific stripe pattern that occurs near the vent of animals that are het for the "pied" trait. I believe this is still being proven definitely.....but you get the idea. If proven, anyone with an animal showing this trait could say with 100% certainty that their animal is "het for pied".
Drizzt is asking, if there are DEFINITE markers, like some pattern anomaly or something that ALWAYS indicate a certain gene.
While Vinman is likely very adept at pointing out the subtle nuances that identify certain ancestry in a snake, I believe Drizzt is looking for something that is more definite than subjective.
Or maybe I'm totally wrong and you guys can tell me to shut up. :shrugs:
I personally find it much easier not to say "That is a hybrid" but "That doesn't look like a corn to me."
I've had experience with this last year - I was hoping to trade some baby geckos for a baby Granite corn. And then I got a photo of the "granite". It SCREAMED "This is not anerythristic bloodred corn snake. I don't know what it is, but it's not an anery bloodred corn."
Did it have any corn in it? I dunno. It was definitely a North American Rat Snake. Probably part grey rat based on colour, I wouldn't be surprised if there was corn or Everglades in it... but not as advertised.
What made me think it wasn't a corn? Things like the proportion of the eyes to the head - they were too big. The snout shape didn't seem right at all, it was too rounded. It had "eyebrows" - that sort of 'hawk-eye' look that makes rat snakes look angry at you. The colour and pattern were all wrong for what they said the parents were. It just didn't LOOK right.
I've had experience with this last year - I was hoping to trade some baby geckos for a baby Granite corn. And then I got a photo of the "granite". It SCREAMED "This is not anerythristic bloodred corn snake. I don't know what it is, but it's not an anery bloodred corn."
Did it have any corn in it? I dunno. It was definitely a North American Rat Snake. Probably part grey rat based on colour, I wouldn't be surprised if there was corn or Everglades in it... but not as advertised.
What made me think it wasn't a corn? Things like the proportion of the eyes to the head - they were too big. The snout shape didn't seem right at all, it was too rounded. It had "eyebrows" - that sort of 'hawk-eye' look that makes rat snakes look angry at you. The colour and pattern were all wrong for what they said the parents were. It just didn't LOOK right.
dionythicus
Kiss My Hearse
I just have to ask, as its been explained to me by a vet that interbreeding doesn't happen very often in the wild, how does someone know when they pick a snake up off the ground in Florida or wherever that its a corn-whatever cross? Has anyone witnessed a breeding between a corn and another type of ratsnake in the wild? Again, is this an assumption based on appearance and location that an odd looking cornsnake must be part black/yellow/everglades/insert-your-favourite-ratsnake-here? If that's the case, then it proves the theory that there must be "markers", otherwise anyone picking up said snake in the wild wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was non-pure corn. I don't understand how someone would assume its a cross when they didn't see both parents.
Vinman said: