My right to bear arms is under fire right now.

[starsevol]

Oh, I know I won't be taken seriously here but it has nothing to do with me not being an American. You guys don't take anyone seriously that doesn't conform to your conservative echo chamber.

In fact, I witnessed in an amazing moment when one of the mods threaten to ban someone for standing up to KJUN back in the day.

So I'm well aware of the level of respect many of you don't have for people who disagree with you and I've never seen that disdain and self righteousness not be applied to an American liberal.

It's dishonest to claim that the attitude I receive from yourself or Rich or whoever is not purely ideologically related.

In my younger days, you would have been right about that in regards to me. I was a "right winger", and conservative to the core. My views have since changed on many issues, and I consider myself better for it. People grow and change constantly.
And you might be shocked to know it, but I do respect you. I think you are extremely intelligent, probably much more intelligent than I am.
But without actually living here, being an American, being immersed in this culture, living by the laws here, all your intelligence means nothing when it comes to having an opinion on issues such as this.
And that is why, while I respect you as an intelligent human being, I can't take your posts seriously when it comes to American politics.

 

[Rich Z]

If you're going to put words in my mouth, should I even bother being here? Are you going to speak for me now?

See, there you go posting nonsensical stuff again. If you go looking for an argument, why pretend to be so surprised when you get it?

 

[Nova_C]

See, there you go posting nonsensical stuff again. If you go looking for an argument, why pretend to be so surprised when you get it?

Get what? What are you talking about? You went off talking about ice cream causing drownings. I never said anything about cause.

Let me repeat: I never said anything about cause.. You brought that up.

I stated that judging by the comments here, things were better when tax rates were higher. If things are worse now, they must have been better before. Tax rates were higher before.

What about that has anything to do with what you then implied I said?

 

[starsevol]

Get what? What are you talking about? You went off talking about ice cream causing drownings. I never said anything about cause.

Let me repeat: I never said anything about cause.. You brought that up.

I stated that judging by the comments here, things were better when tax rates were higher. If things are worse now, they must have been better before. Tax rates were higher before.

What about that has anything to do with what you then implied I said?

As a percentage of every dollar earned, taxes were NOT higher before.

 

[Outcast]

I posted this in another thread, but it seems to have a place in this one as well.

The issue that I see is a disconnect between the people who have grown up with certain rights, and those who never had those rights to begin with. We, who have grown up with the right to bare arms, look at people over the pond, and do not understand why they cannot have guns. They look at us and wonder why we get in an uproar about the legislation coming down that restricts our rights to have guns.

We will never agree on certain subjects, because we have not grown up in the same type of life. It is completely a cultural thing. But, comparing the US to Europe is just about as useless as comparing snakes to dogs...

 

[Nova_C]

In my younger days, you would have been right about that in regards to me. I was a "right winger", and conservative to the core. My views have since changed on many issues, and I consider myself better for it. People grow and change constantly.
And you might be shocked to know it, but I do respect you. I think you are extremely intelligent, probably much more intelligent than I am.
But without actually living here, being an American, being immersed in this culture, living by the laws here, all your intelligence means nothing when it comes to having an opinion on issues such as this.
And that is why, while I respect you as an intelligent human being, I can't take your posts seriously when it comes to American politics.

Well, the belief that opinions from people not directly involved in the situation are worthless is pretty unusual. This very board is proof of that. Animal care has some basic rules, but is very specific to the animal. What you do to care for your Corn Snake may not be exactly the same as what I do to care for my Corn Snake. We live in different environments with different requirements. We live in different economic situations. We live under different regulations. My Corn will have a different personality than yours, different appetite, different aggression levels, different behavior. Does that mean that your opinion regarding care of my Corn Snake is worthless? Of course not. I'll bet you know way more about taking care of a Corn Snake than I do. I won't just blindly agree to anything you say, but I will take your opinion, weigh it against what the situation is, and make a choice. I won't just dismiss your opinion out of hand because, "You just don't know, Man!"

 

[Nova_C]

As a percentage of every dollar earned, taxes were NOT higher before.

I was going to ask about that 43% number. Where does it come from? What was it before?

 

[airenlow]

Nova, this would be like you not having a corn and still giving us advice...

 

[Chip]

Oh, I know I won't be taken seriously here but it has nothing to do with me not being an American. You guys don't take anyone seriously that doesn't conform to your conservative echo chamber.

Conservative echo chamber? I am an atheist for gay marriage, legalizing drugs, prostitution, gambling, and pretty much champion any social liberty. I get along famously with these "conservatives," and have had calm dialogs about our differences. The only two posters I have ever had to temporarily put on ignore to avoid their personal attacks were actually leftists. In my view of this forum, it is usually they who are most intolerant of ideas they disagree with.

It's dishonest to claim that the attitude I receive from yourself or Rich or whoever is not purely ideologically related.

Not true. You frustrate those you debate with, and I believe you do it deliberately. People are generally not their most pleasant around those who frustrate them.

Get what? What are you talking about? You went off talking about ice cream causing drownings. I never said anything about cause.

Let me repeat: I never said anything about cause.. You brought that up.

I stated that judging by the comments here, things were better when tax rates were higher. If things are worse now, they must have been better before. Tax rates were higher before.

What about that has anything to do with what you then implied I said?

Please read it again:

Well, you all talk about how things are getting worse and worse. So I assume that means they used to be better. Tax rates used to be much higher.

Ergo, things were better when tax rates were higher.

 

[starsevol]

Well, the belief that opinions from people not directly involved in the situation are worthless is pretty unusual. This very board is proof of that. Animal care has some basic rules, but is very specific to the animal. What you do to care for your Corn Snake may not be exactly the same as what I do to care for my Corn Snake. We live in different environments with different requirements. We live in different economic situations. We live under different regulations. My Corn will have a different personality than yours, different appetite, different aggression levels, different behavior. Does that mean that your opinion regarding care of my Corn Snake is worthless? Of course not. I'll bet you know way more about taking care of a Corn Snake than I do. I won't just blindly agree to anything you say, but I will take your opinion, weigh it against what the situation is, and make a choice. I won't just dismiss your opinion out of hand because, "You just don't know, Man!"

Right, but in your scenario, we both have the same animal. Sure, some things are different, but every person's life and experiances are different. Corns need certain things to thrive, no matter who owns them, that is a constant.

But as far as politics go, sure, you can have an opinion. You can have an opinion to your heart's content. But laws made here don't affect you or your way of life, and never will. Policies made here won't affect you or your life, and never will. You don't have to obey our laws where you are. And not living here and being "in it", you don't know what it is like.
You can believe that if this country was run according to your beliefs, or the way other governments are run, that life here would improve. But without all the intricacies of living here under this government, it is a moot point.

I have no knowledge of Canadian politics or policies, or taxes or anything else. Just because I think my opinion of how things should be run is more appealing to me, I would never dare suggest that canada should be run "my way".

 

[beautifullywild77]

Wow... .

 

[starsevol]

I was going to ask about that 43% number. Where does it come from? What was it before?

Actually, I rechecked my figures. Depending on tax bracket it is more like 32-40% of every dollar earned. Not only that, but there are a greater number of taxes than ever before. If I buy a $35 dollar top up card for my phone, I am charged an additional fee for a "911 tax" that is somewhere around 7 or 8 percent. I am not sure what it was before to be honest.

Nova, this would be like you not having a corn and still giving us advice...

Yes!! That is a good point.

Conservative echo chamber? I am an atheist for gay marriage, legalizing drugs, prostitution, gambling, and pretty much champion any social liberty. I get along famously with these "conservatives," and have had calm dialogs about our differences. The only two posters I have ever had to temporarily put on ignore to avoid their personal attacks were actually leftists. In my view of this forum, it is usually they who are most intolerant of ideas they disagree with.

Not true. You frustrate those you debate with, and I believe you do it deliberately. People are generally not their most pleasant around those who frustrate them.

Please read it again:

I WAS a right winger, and my views have changed so dramatically that I am pretty much just like this guy! ^^^^^^^^

 

[Nova_C]

Right, but in your scenario, we both have the same animal. Sure, some things are different, but every person's life and experiances are different. Corns need certain things to thrive, no matter who owns them, that is a constant.

But as far as politics go, sure, you can have an opinion. You can have an opinion to your heart's content. But laws made here don't affect you or your way of life, and never will. Policies made here won't affect you or your life, and never will. You don't have to obey our laws where you are. And not living here and being "in it", you don't know what it is like.
You can believe that if this country was run according to your beliefs, or the way other governments are run, that life here would improve. But without all the intricacies of living here under this government, it is a moot point.

I have no knowledge of Canadian politics or policies, or taxes or anything else. Just because I think my opinion of how things should be run is more appealing to me, I would never dare suggest that canada should be run "my way".

And humans are all fundamentally the same as well. You live in a different situation, but it certainly doesn't mean I can't understand it. Or sympathize. What you are saying is basically American exceptionalism and I don't believe there is such a thing. I don't believe Americans are so vastly different from everyone else on the planet that there isn't common ground, that there isn't a shared experience.

And American laws and policies absolutely affect me. The securities fraud that caused the credit crisis could not happen in Canada, the behavior was made illegal, but the US removed that regulation and when the US credit crisis hit, Canada was deeply affected. Our economy is still in recovery even though our banking system was the most resilient. And that's just the most obvious example. What your country does has a huge effect on Canada.

But that's not why I believe the things I believe. I believe the things I believe because of the people I know in the US, the friends I have in Michigan who are freaking out by the passage of Right to Work legislation. The people in New York who I didn't hear from for days after Sandy. I have friends in Florida and California and Washington.

And not a single one of them says my opinion is worthless to them.

Of course, most of them voted for Obama. Most of them support the ACA. Most of them are in complete disagreement with you about the path of America, about the future of America and about the choices the current administration is making. It is their experience and all the information they give me that forms my opinions on US politics.

PS. I'd love for you to talk about Canadian politics. Nobody here cares at all about Canadian politics. I've tried.

-----

Chip: I ask again, where did I say anything about cause? Point it out! Because I did not and just reposting a quote where I said nothing about cause doesn't help your argument.

 

[starsevol]

And humans are all fundamentally the same as well. You live in a different situation, but it certainly doesn't mean I can't understand it. Or sympathize. What you are saying is basically American exceptionalism and I don't believe there is such a thing. I don't believe Americans are so vastly different from everyone else on the planet that there isn't common ground, that there isn't a shared experience.

And American laws and policies absolutely affect me. The securities fraud that caused the credit crisis could not happen in Canada, the behavior was made illegal, but the US removed that regulation and when the US credit crisis hit, Canada was deeply affected. Our economy is still in recovery even though our banking system was the most resilient. And that's just the most obvious example. What your country does has a huge effect on Canada.

But that's not why I believe the things I believe. I believe the things I believe because of the people I know in the US, the friends I have in Michigan who are freaking out by the passage of Right to Work legislation. The people in New York who I didn't hear from for days after Sandy. I have friends in Florida and California and Washington.

And not a single one of them says my opinion is worthless to them.

Of course, most of them voted for Obama. Most of them support the ACA. Most of them are in complete disagreement with you about the path of America, about the future of America and about the choices the current administration is making. It is their experience and all the information they give me that forms my opinions on US politics.

PS. I'd love for you to talk about Canadian politics. Nobody here cares at all about Canadian politics. I've tried.

-----

Chip: I ask again, where did I say anything about cause? Point it out! Because I did not and just reposting a quote where I said nothing about cause doesn't help your argument.

But you are not immersed in it.
No matter what your other friends tell you, our laws are not a fact of your life. Maybe you are affected by some degree because of what goes on here, but no more than any other non citizen.

As far as "Right to work", I think it is a wonderful thing.
It gives people the freedom to decide for themselves and doesn't force anyone to belong to an organization that they don't want to.

 

[Nova_C]

As far as "Right to work", I think it is a wonderful thing.
It gives people the freedom to decide for themselves and doesn't force anyone to belong to an organization that they don't want to.

They always did.

The Taft-Hartley act of 1947 made it illegal to require union membership.

Right to Work specifically requires unions to provide union benefits for non-members. Which means that you get union protection even if you don't pay for it. Which means the unions will be eliminated by starvation.

So it's an anti-union measure since Taft-Hartley covers everything else.

One of my friends from Michigan asked when they were going to pass a 'right to shop' law since he is being forced to pay for services he wants by retail thugs.

 

[Nanci]

Meanwhile, Florida, which already has the most concealed carry permit holders in the country, is set to go over the one million mark next week! Nearly 25% of those CCW holders are senior citizens. And this is reported as _good_ news!

 

[Nova_C]

But you are not immersed in it.
No matter what your other friends tell you, our laws are not a fact of your life. Maybe you are affected by some degree because of what goes on here, but no more than any other non citizen.

And really, this is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. This is about ignorance and wearing blinders. This is about refusing information that doesn't conform to your worldview. How far do you take this belief? Do people outside of your neighborhood not know your situation? How about your city? State? Or do the differences in laws at only the federal level count? Do some countries know more than others? Or is it all foreigners who can't fathom your situation? Does the opinion of someone in Florida hold more worth and knowledge for the people of Niagara, Michigan than the people who live on the other side of the falls less than a mile away in Niagara, Ontario?

 

[Rich Z]

Get what? What are you talking about? You went off talking about ice cream causing drownings. I never said anything about cause.

Let me repeat: I never said anything about cause.. You brought that up.

I stated that judging by the comments here, things were better when tax rates were higher. If things are worse now, they must have been better before. Tax rates were higher before.

What about that has anything to do with what you then implied I said?

See? And now you are pretending to be stupid just to continue the argument.....

Well, if that's the way you want to play it, then here's your sign -> :dunce:

 

[Nova_C]

So you can't actually show me where I said anything about causation, you just accuse me of stuff.

Okay. I mean, the last time you weren't able to address what I was saying you just rolled your eyes at me. Is the smiley your 'bail out'?

 

[Chip]

Nova, read your quote again, please. I quoted it for you in my last post and will again in this one, so you don't even have to look far. You don't HAVE to say anything about causation to insinuate it. If someone says "98% of serial killers like ketchup on their fries," that makes you wonder if they really see ketchup as causation. But if they actually respond to you with the ketchup/serial killer version of "Well, you all talk about how things are getting worse and worse. So I assume that means they used to be better. Tax rates used to be much higher. Ergo, things were better when tax rates were higher."
What are we SUPPOSED to think you are saying, dude??? You have to take some accountability for the way your arguments seem to work out for you.