Now THIS Is How I Remember CS.com!

[desertanimal]

Thank you Susan- just trying to help and get SilentScreamer to an area where I think Viper Boa owners are more likely to be reading. I _hope_ you weren't, as Desert Animal implies, pointing out that my behavior was unusual for me and that I am more normally argumentative.

Wait wait, just to be clear, my remarks weren't about the particular posters in that particular thread, just about newbies in general and established respondents in general. I certainly didn't mean to imply that Susan thinks anyone in particular is argumentative. She might, but I wan't trying to address anything personal.

Now if you wouldn't feel a bit hurt if someone said that about something you were happy about, then you are indeed a tough-skinned person and I admire that in my current, hormonally induced, emotional state.

Well, I think it's probably quite true that I'm a tough-skinned person. (Though I can't quite manage it around election time when multiple states pass laws that basically say that my romantic relationship is inferior to theirs--that still hurts my feelings every two years.) However, I guess if Dean said that to me I would think to myself, "What's Dean got up his butt today?" And in this particular case I'd have realized that what Dean has up his butt is the same issue that's been bothering you. It's just that he relates more to the other side of it that you do.

And you know, that brings me to a point I haven't seen brought up before. It may have been, because I don't follow every thread carefully.

I have a couple of philosophies about inter-personal interaction. They are my own, and no one has to agree with them, but they are what I believe in. I don't like to wear "kid-gloves." I expect other people to not be overly-reactive without me having to put in nice words all over the place. I want people to assume that I'm not being mean just because I don't bend over backwards to be "nice." I don't think this is unreasonable, because if I am being mean, you will definitely know it--it won't be ambiguous. I think people who are overly reactive shouldn't just be allowed to act that way, anymore than mean people should be allowed to act mean. These are my philosophies. Some of you like to be more tolerant of certain behaviors than I, and that's ok.

But what bothers me in these discussions, and what sort of DOES hurt my feelings eventually, is that some of the people who like to be "nicer," like you, seem to always come down on the side of the poor newbies who really acted like a-holes themselves. It feels like the culpability, in your mind, and the problem, is the "oldies" who are intolerant. And really, after a while, that starts to feel as if people like you, Susan, think I'm a bad person because I am intolerant of what I consider to be ridiculous behavior. That I am a problem on this site and am ruining it for you. I think that was probably why Dean reacted the way he did. The subtext that I read into your post was, "See, if you not-nice-to-the-newbies crowd (i.e., Dean and Stephanie, to name two) could just be nicer, everything would be ok." Maybe he had the same reaction. Maybe that wasn't what you meant, but it was what I inferred and reacted to.

Now I know that you don't REALLY think that I'm ruining this site. We've had many nice conversations, and I know you know I am a reasonable and thoughful person. But none of the "nice-to-newbies" people seem to ever say, "Well, a-holish behavior on the part of newbies shouldn't be tolerated any more than a-holish behavior on the part of oldies." Instead, what seems to be said is, "Well, get over yourselves and your expectations about how people should conduct themselves. Just shut up and be nice." I don't think you nice people really think that, but it really feels like you do sometimes. It reminds me of when you're an older sibling and your younger sibling gets away with murder because they're younger, but the second you retaliate, you get a beating from your parents. I've never thought that fair, and that's how this whole issue feels to me. It feels like the let's-be-nice contingent feels like newbies can behave however they want, but we sure as hell had better be nice to them anyway and if you aren't nice in the face of rude and presumptuous behavior, then the problem is YOU! And, well, that hurts my feelings. Because I am NOT the problem. I've been here for quite a while and have had positive interactions with most of you. I am quite capable of conducting a heated but civil argument with anyone else who's capable of it. But newbies who act like they know everything and come in with a chip on their shoulders make me want to squish them. Usually I do what Kathy does and ignore such people completely.

Maybe what all of us who don't like newbies like this should do is just ignore all of those posts completely. I do already. If the title is in chatspeak, I don't even open it. If it says, "help plz now!!!!!!!!!!!" I don't touch it anymore. If we all did that, what will happen is that the "nice-to-newbies" contingent will get to answer all of those posts. Then, what will eventually happen is that there will really be two separate boards within one. Maybe that's not the best answer. Maybe it is. :shrugs:

 

[plasticknives]

It reminds me of when you're an older sibling and your younger sibling gets away with murder because they're younger, but the second you retaliate, you get a beating from your parents. I've never thought that fair, and that's how this whole issue feels to me.

First off, I love it when people help out other people. I'm a softie, and I can't help it.

Second, I completely agree with the sibling analogy. Being an older child, I got slammed all the time for stuff like that, and my sister never seemed to GET it.

But i'd like to take it one step further, because this analogy EXACTLY illustrates my point of view on this. One day, when I was about 14, I just decided that I was done retaliating. I decided, that I was going to kill my sister with niceness. I figured nothing would infuriate her more than me being almost sickeningly nice to her when she was trying her hardest to annoy me.

the funny thing was- it backfired. She was confused for a couple of days, and then suddenly.... we got along. It was BIZARRE. If she was really annoying me, I just told her that I needed to go do something else. Instead of it always being me vs. her, it was suddenly Us vs. other stuff.

This is how i see it with newbies. Newbies can't help being new any more than younger siblings can help being younger. If you cut them a little slack, it usually ends up well. "Kid gloves" as you put it, are sometimes necessary, especially for people who already feel intimidated by all the big names and experience on this forum. I know i did.


Some people aren't aware that chat-speak is a no-no on this forum, especially as it is quite common on a lot of other forums out there.

I say, give the newbies one freebie, and THEN you can slam them for being incomprehensible. And that free one SHOULD BE nice. It shouldn't make them feel attacked or defensive for being less knowledgeable then others, or for using internet contractions.
"PLZ" for instance, is just as understandable as a lot of the IMO, IMHO and FWIW's that appear around here.

A little patience goes a long way.



To clarify- people who expect you to bend over backwards to help them while also showing zero respect, don't deserve help. And sometimes, they even deserve what they often get on these forums. HOWEVER,
I'd rather just walk away. The best way to get people like that to leave, is to not reply.

If they find no one reads/ replies to their post, they'll deem the forum unworthy or unhelpful and hopefully go bother someone else.

 

[desertanimal]

I agree with you in general. I, actually, don't ever slam newbies. Maybe other people think I do, but as I said, you will know a slam from me when you see one. It won't be subtle, and so far I haven't ever done it. I don't think other people USUALLY slam newbies either. But again, we may disagree about what qualifies as a slam, too.

Everyone in my family was nice to my little sister, too. She didn't get in trouble for lots of the things she did. And I was pretty nice to her as well. She turned into a drug-addict and neglectful mother of two who now, at the age of 26, goes once a day to a methadone clinic and still invents her own reality. Maybe if people hadn't been so nice, things would have been different. Maybe not. I'm just pointing out that niceness isn't necessarily the most productive strategy across the board.

 

[plasticknives]

Like I said, I'm guilty of being overly sensitive sometimes, so take my words with a grain of salt....

I don't actually think all out "slams" are the problem, really. I just meant that we do need to read into our own post sometimes, and even if the language is civil, things can be... inferred, even if they're not intended.

Sometimes the more experienced on this site can make the newbies feel pretty ignorant. Maybe even stupid- and no one likes to feel stupid.

I'm not over-advocating "niceness" here either. Niceness is not always the best option. I'm definitely not opposed to some discipline.

The only thing is, I'd hate to see young cornsnake owners getting bad advice from friendlier people who don't know anything, when there is such a bank of knowledge here.

 

[plasticknives]

....not to say people aren't friendly here, ive gotten nothing but help form these forums!

ps

you must spread some rep. around before giving it to desertanimal again.

 

[Roy Munson]

But what bothers me in these discussions, and what sort of DOES hurt my feelings eventually, is that some of the people who like to be "nicer," like you, seem to always come down on the side of the poor newbies who really acted like a-holes themselves. It feels like the culpability, in your mind, and the problem, is the "oldies" who are intolerant. And really, after a while, that starts to feel as if people like you, Susan, think I'm a bad person because I am intolerant of what I consider to be ridiculous behavior. That I am a problem on this site and am ruining it for you. I think that was probably why Dean reacted the way he did. The subtext that I read into your post was, "See, if you not-nice-to-the-newbies crowd (i.e., Dean and Stephanie, to name two) could just be nicer, everything would be ok." Maybe he had the same reaction. Maybe that wasn't what you meant, but it was what I inferred and reacted to.

As usual, you've expressed my own feelings better than I could myself. My initial assessment of this thread, and my reaction to it are exactly as you describe, even if Susan didn't intend the thread to come across that way.

Maybe what all of us who don't like newbies like this should do is just ignore all of those posts completely. I do already. If the title is in chatspeak, I don't even open it. If it says, "help plz now!!!!!!!!!!!" I don't touch it anymore. If we all did that, what will happen is that the "nice-to-newbies" contingent will get to answer all of those posts. Then, what will eventually happen is that there will really be two separate boards within one. Maybe that's not the best answer. Maybe it is. :shrugs:

You're a wise woman, Stephanie. Maybe I finally understand. I'm going to hang up my crusader cape, and distance myself from caring so much about the content and atmosphere of this forum. It makes me sad, because I used to love this place, and I couldn't believe my good fortune in finding a place so in tune with my interests and personality. I don't feel that way anymore, and I can assure you that I'M not that one who has changed.

 

[gwb8568]

....and I can assure you that I'M not that one who has changed.

and you are also not the only one that feels the way you do.

galen

 

[desertanimal]

Maybe I finally understand. I'm going to hang up my crusader cape, and distance myself from caring so much about the content and atmosphere of this forum. It makes me sad, because I used to love this place, and I couldn't believe my good fortune in finding a place so in tune with my interests and personality. I don't feel that way anymore, and I can assure you that I'M not that one who has changed.

I know what you mean. I remember when I posted about how happy I was to have found a board full of people who shared my interests and who felt it important to maintain high standards of logic, grammar, etc. I felt like I had found "my people." And I had, and most of them are still around, and if they aren't I know where to find them. But the fact is, the world isn't full of my people and there really isn't anywhere where I can interact exclusively with them. You can't keep everyone out who isn't like you, nor would it be a good thing to do so. It's kind of like when you first go to grad. school and the cohort of grad. students has a certain feel to it and you really, really dig it. And then a few older students graduate and leave and a few new ones come in, and that process is repeated until one day you realize that it just isn't the same as it was before. And it can't be, because it isn't the same people anymore. Change is sometimes a little bit sad, because it sometimes involves loss, but it's inevitable, no matter how hard you struggle against it. But yeah, that doesn't make it fun. :hugs:

 

[Tula_Montage]

"Omnia mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis" - All things change, and we are changing with them...

This threads intentions were completely diminished after a few replies :shrugs:

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

First let me say a "kudos" of my own to Susan for recognizing a good, clean, helpful post for a newbie. I do agree that they have seemed few and far between as of late.

Secondly, I have to agree with Elle that this post moved way off the original intention very quickly. But that being said, I do believe that everyone that has replied to this post has had valid points, each from their own perspective. I am notorious for being able to understand both sides of every story and often playing the devil's advocate (although I usually refrain from doing so on here).

I strongly believe it is up to us to mold this forum into what we want it to be. Whether that means some of us are overly nice to newbies (who do or don't deserve it is not for me to decide) or just walking away from posts that we don't think deserve our time or attention.

I agree that some newbies walk into this forum with no respect for the knowledge offered to them by those that know what they are talking about. They start right off being argumentative, not wanting to take the advice offered - instead wanting validation for whatever it is that they want to hear regardless if it is right or wrong. They take advice offered to them and throw it back in the face of the person offering it if it isn't what they wanted to hear. To me, the old adage rings true in these situations - "You only get one chance to make a first impression"

On the other hand, some newbies come in with an honest request for help. They respond well to the advice offered and follow suggestions made. They read stickies and use the search function. They take the time to thank those who make an effort to help them.

I imagine this is how it was long before I got here and will continue to be this way as long as this forum is active. I agree that it does seem like there are more and more newbies showing up all the time and it also seems that a lot more of them are confrontational. I find that I normally follow Kathy's advice and just leave the post alone if I cannot decipher it or it appears the OP does not want to take the time to "search", read stickies or follow the advice from experienced owners.

Everyone will follow whatever course of action they feel necessary, but what we shouldn't be doing is attacking each other over any of this. People like Susan, Kathy, Dean, Joe, Dale, Mike, Janine etc...etc...etc are the "heart" of this board now. If we can't rely on each other and attack each other, I think that makes an even worse impression on newbies coming here for advice, information or anything else. Our first impression to these newbies is the same as their first impression to us and I think we should all remember that too, first impressoins work in both directions.

I love this place and I consider many of the members here friends even if we have never met before. As a one time newbie myself, I have found a ton of advice and information over my time here and I try to pass that on to the next "generation" when I can. I hope that I can make a difference the way that so many of you did for me when I first joined.

 

[Lennycorn]

"Omnia mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis" - All things change, and we are changing with them...

This threads intentions were completely diminished after a few replies :shrugs:

Damn Tula.
That fits you to a "T".
Not to sound harsh but you were a little rough around the edges when you first join the forum. And not you turn into a more mature person.
And you are right it has completely diminished. I just hope that breeding season will start a little faster here. So we can start talkin' corns again. These type of threads are getting old. Sound like Bill Clinton talk..."it depends on what the meaning of IS is"....What!!!!
The debate is OK at first but then it should die but it can't!!! It live on like a cancer. Spreading over this forum. Give it a bad taste.
Pass the salt and lets kill this taste.
Enough said. Good day.

 

[Tula_Montage]

Not to sound harsh but you were a little rough around the edges when you first join the forum. .

Of course I was... And that bad first impression has certainly stuck with some members. Thats cool.

But you need to learn what is acceptable and whats not in an established community. Maybe it needs to be explained more in the site description? That this is a mature forum, for people who are passionate about reptiles, most importantly corn snakes. And we do know a thing or two about them.

Of course I threw good advice in the face of many people on my decision to co-hab for a while. Like touching a wet paint sign, I knew of the risk but was adamant to take it. I was proved wrong :shrugs: surprise surprise.

People need to learn by themselves though... We cannot change others.

 

[Lennycorn]

Well Tula... your "cool" with me now. If it means anything.

Maybe it needs to be explained more in the site description? That this is a mature forum, for people who are passionate about reptiles,

There is a idea for this site.

And by the way... I think (even tho I'll never do it) cohabitation is OK. But only if you have vast experience and with the right snakes.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

There's hope after all if even Tula can change lol
I have to address the 'nice to newbies' vs. 'not so nice' thing. I may be a softy but I do think some new members do come here with the wrong attitude. My point I've been unsuccessfully trying to get across is that not all of them are like this, there's a few bad apples but that's no reason to trash the whole barrel. Sometimes it seems as if everyone is being painted with the same wide brush stroke and that's what gets to me, most people will see the light IF their mistakes/misconceptions are pointed out gently instead of the way it usually seems to go down - their wrongness/mistake is made publicly evident in a way that causes them to become defensive and lash out at the more experienced member, which in turn causes more people to come to that experienced members defense, jump on the bandwagon and escalate the bickering way out of proportion. End result, the OP leaves feeling the site was unhelpful or hostile and we all lose out on a potential member, friend, even future customer if you breed corns.
I just wish I had more time to reply to posts and answer questions, I'm usually just here on weekends now and most questions have already been answered by the time I see the post.

 

[desertanimal]

I just hope that breeding season will start a little faster here. So we can start talkin' corns again. These type of threads are getting old. Sound like Bill Clinton talk..."it depends on what the meaning of IS is"....What!!!!
The debate is OK at first but then it should die but it can't!!! It live on like a cancer. Spreading over this forum. Give it a bad taste.
Pass the salt and lets kill this taste.
Enough said. Good day.

I find it hilarious when people contribute to a thread to say, "There are too many threads like this and we've talked enough about it!"

I'm not criticizing you. Lots of people do it, and it always makes me laugh, no matter what the thread is about. I really do think it's funny!
:grin01:

 

[Lennycorn]

I find it hilarious when people contribute to a thread to say, "There are too many threads like this and we've talked enough about it!"

I'm not criticizing you. Lots of people do it, and it always makes me laugh, no matter what the thread is about. I really do think it's funny!
:grin01:

I agree that there are other "statements" that strike me funny on this site too. And I have read and wrote "come on guy's we're talkin' corns here".
But......after you laugh about it, don't you get tired of it too??? :shrugs:

 

[Rich Z]

I think it would be instructive for EVERYONE to make the effort to go to a message board site that specializes in something that they are a "newbie" at. Pick something of interest that you only have minimal knowledge of and go to the site with the intention of learning more.

Imagine your first question asked being answered by "Man we get that question every other day! Use the friggin search......." Yeah, not everyone will do that, but all it takes is ONE, especially the FIRST ONE, and you will feel slapped in the face. Been there myself, and it is NOT pleasant. And unless you have an extremely strong "turn the other cheek" fortitude (which I do not), it's very tough to keep from immediately becoming belligerent. Which then sets the tone for a song it will be tough to escape from without a lot of effort on your part.

Is that what WE want to do to newbies coming HERE? I certainly hope not.

And as for someone coming in here flat footed BEING belligerent right off the bat, well honestly, does two wrongs then make a right by immediately being belligerent back at them?

Yes, it WILL rub you the wrong way, but maybe they are in a panic over their snake acting sick, or their mom is telling them if that snake gets out one more time it has to go, or maybe they just had a real bad day. At least make the effort to defuse the situation instead of just thowing gasoline on the smouldering fuse. Or if that is just not your personality, then just walk away from it. No one here is REQUIRED to reply to any post made here at all. None. So if one rankles your nerves, and it doesn't address you personally, why get your blood pressure into the red zone over it?

Yeah, this site has changed. But I'm not sure what exactly it is that has changed. Newbies have been coming in here ever since this site was first set up. And certainly those people were little different from those still coming in today. Did the core group of older members here just get tired of the newbies and the questions they have heard over and over again? If that is the case, then I am afraid there is no real answer to the problem. Newbies will always be coming in here. Which is probably a good thing, otherwise without newbies, then this interest called "Corn Snakes" we have will just wither away as all the current enthusiasts eventually move on to other interests or just die away from old age.

So how do you want to be remembered 20 years from now by some ex-newbie who is now among the largest corn snake breeders in the world? As the jerk who gave him/her a real hard time with their first ever question, or the one who helped blossom that budding interest with their help and support instead?

 

[El Jefe]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rich Z again.

​

We were all newbies once......even Rich Z!

 

[Susan]

I'm just curious...When did showing common courtesy and respect to others become a bad thing? :shrugs: I guess my parents taught me too well. I must remember to chastise them.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I'm just curious...When did showing common courtesy and respect to others become a bad thing? I guess my parents taught me too well.

That and the whole - "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" were big in my house growing up. I guess that is why I shy away from a lot of the threads where I feel I won't be able to say something nice. I have issues with kids/newbies who can't show respect to "elders" (in this case not necessarily being age indicitive) when they join our community. So instead of being rude back, I usually read and then walk away. I won't say I am an angel because I know I have on occasion spat back at them myself, but in the long run I realize it isn't worth the aggravation on my part and it doesn't do any good either so it is better to just leave it alone.