PayPal Disputes Involving Animals

[Khaman]

The only time I bought Microsoft Office off of EBay and as soon as it arrived I realized it was not an original copy, it was a good fake but I still spotted it. I emailed the seller and got no response. I opened a ticket and since Paypal received no response from him either they refunded my money.

 

[GSDlover]

To be honest I think it's fair if he is willing to give you half your money back.
Because A. I'm sure it's still a very nice snake. B. Like said before you could sell it and make more the lost. C. You still have the snake so it's not like he's going to give you a full refund. and lastly he is human and makes mistakes he did offer to try and reason with you.

Though it is pretty lame that you got a wrongly sexed snakie, if you really didn't want it I would try and re-sell it. Maybe ask him if next clutch you could have a discount on a female...?

 

[tricksterpup]

All I wanted was to be refunded for was the price of the offending male snake, $60. Personally if I was the seller of an incorrectly sexed animal I would have A. apologized profusely, B. Sent the correct sex snake at my cost should one be available, C. Refund the purchase price plus time and trouble should I not have the right sex available, D. Offer to allow the offended party to keep the incorrectly sexed animal or send a shipping label to have the animal returned to me should they not want it.
Terri

Hey Terri,
I will make things right for you.. I will give you the $60, heck, I will even toss in an extra 40 and you can send me the Champagne male. heck, I will even pay shipping. :grin01:

 

[dionythicus]

Maybe I'm on my own here, but I've never considered Paypal to be the police in transactions between myself and a buyer/seller. I think of the issue as between me and the other person. I guess its like stopping a check, but I wouldn't invite a middle man with no vested interest in the dispute to step in. I don't see how Paypal can guarantee protection anyway? It's pretty much he said/she said in most cases. I wonder though if it had been someone purchasing mares for breeding and getting a stud colt instead, would Paypal have understood the problem better?

 

[Nanci]

To be honest I think it's fair if he is willing to give you half your money back.
Because A. I'm sure it's still a very nice snake. B. Like said before you could sell it and make more the lost. C. You still have the snake so it's not like he's going to give you a full refund. and lastly he is human and makes mistakes he did offer to try and reason with you.

Though it is pretty lame that you got a wrongly sexed snakie, if you really didn't want it I would try and re-sell it. Maybe ask him if next clutch you could have a discount on a female...?

It doesn't matter if the snake is nice or not. Terri doesn't need three males. She needs one male, and a back-up. She needs a pair of females, and a back-up.

I'm pretty sure she'd rather drink lye than ever deal with that seller again. There are other champagne breeders.

 

[Kokopelli]

Erm... people. I am sorry, but I think a bit differently.
It's fine that you want and need a certain sex... but since when are babies 100% fool proof sexed?
It is always possible to miss-sex a hatchling as a female, even if you pop or use a probe.

I honestly believe that half the money back+keeping the snake is a very solid compensation.

It's not that he sent you the wrong morph- he sent you a baby, and sexing hatchlings always carries some possibility of an error.

You can't tell the sex of GTP's before they are 1 year old(or you risk spine injury), same for Leopard geckos under 4 months or so...
I realized by now that these are animals, rather than furniture, and such things -can- and -do- happen- and expecting the seller to fund a shipment of the snake back to his place, and another, back to you, is unrealistic. He is not supposed to lose when, in all fairness, just one baby was miss-sexed.
Alternatively, him shipping another snake at his own expanse while letting you keep the other one, is also unrealistic. I'm sorry, but it doesn't strike me as a reasonable or fair expectation.

I think that he actually pulled through reasonably- selling the baby shouldn't be -that- hard. Even someone here offered to buy him off of you no?
I don't think that's expecting you to "pay for his mistakes". If anything, you can make a decent profit.

I consider myself a very fair person. But I wouldn't, under no circumstance, pay for one or two shipments when these exceed the value of the original purchase. If I wrongly sexed a young snake. These things happen- it's a drag, but there was no harmful intention or a lie, and I think that the price you expect the seller to pay is a tad... well, unreasonable.

I am sure he will gladly replace your snake should you find the time to go to this place. Expecting him to fund a two way shipment, or a one way while letting you keep an extra animal without paying for it... as a seller, I wouldn't have done it, not when the mistake is legitimate.

There's no excuse to the way he chose to speak to you, but I don't know what went down in the conversation so I'll refrain from commenting.

As objectively as I can try and see this... the refund you demand outweights by far the gravity and severity of his mistake.

Nanci- would you be willing to refund a person for 60$ for a snake, and pay either 50$ more for shipping a new one? Or pay 100$ for two shipments? I doubt you'd think that's sensible if you were in the shoes of the seller.

 

[Nanci]

These is my guarantee, Oren: (I don't know the details of the guarantee for the snakes that Terri purchased, or if indeed the was a guarantee).

3) All claims of improper sexing must be made to me within 48 hours of shipment receipt.

I will replace any snake sold as “guaranteed male” or “guaranteed female” deemed improperly sexed by a licensed veterinarian during this 48 hour period with another of the same type. The veterinarian must determine sex by popping a hatchling or probing an adult; guessing by tail shape or some other method is not acceptable. If another of the same type is not available, you may elect to return the snake within seven days for a full refund.

4) All claims of improper sexing not made by licensed veterinarians are subject to the following conditions:

Applies to only to snakes sold as “guaranteed male” or “guaranteed female.” The snake shall be returned to me for evaluation at the customer’s expense. Should the snake prove correctly sexed as sold, it shall be returned to the customer at customer’s expense. Failure to arrange prompt return and prepay for return shipping charges within seven days shall constitute forfeiture of ownership to SnickerSnakes, with no compensation due. Should the snake prove incorrectly sexed as sold, a company credit shall be given towards future purchases, including the return shipping charges incurred by the customer.

********

I have had two experiences with mis-sexed snakes. The first was discovered when the snake, purchased as a hatchling, was a mature adult, and I was attempting to breed "her." That is far too late to do anything other than beat myself up for not verifying the sex upon arrival. The second was discovered within days of receipt. After I notified the seller, a replacement snake of the correct sex was sent to me, at the seller's expense, and I was allowed to keep the mis-sexed snake as well. These were yearlings.

*********EDIT!!

I forgot the case of Noah the BOA!!! I bought Noah the Rosy Boa at Daytona. My first Rosy Boa. Noah was sold as a male. Noah had no spurs, as a yearling. Noah, as a three year old, still has no spurs. I was told that the seller sexed his rosies by probing, which was not accurate. I have had spurs on rosies of various ages demonstrated to me by several different breeders, and have not been able to discover spurs on Noah. I think Noah is a female. But I am not sure. I had somewhat seriously considered breeding Noah, because she is a nice anery, which is uncommon. Noah's undetermined sex doesn't really matter at this point, unless I decide to look for a mate.

 

[kathylove]

I would only purchase something with PayPal from a seller that I would be comfortable sending a check or money order to. I consider PayPal to be safer as a seller than a buyer.

I haven't had direct dispute experience, but I have read of many disputes on the BOI, for both live animals and dry goods. In most cases, PayPal sided with the seller if there was proof that SOMETHING was shipped - even an empty box. So if I was at all concerned about a seller, I would only use a credit card.

Nanci touched on something that was kind of neglected earlier in the discussion. That is the fact that, although probing is quite accurate in most species of snakes, it is not 100%. And while I am not perfect at sexing, I am more experienced than most of my customers. So if a customer told me I was wrong, I would need proof that I was mistaken, rather than my customer making the mistake. If they had it confirmed by a vet (a lot of vets are probably clueless about sexing snakes, but hopefully the herp vets could do it), or to a breeder I know and trust, that would mean a lot more to me than a previously unknown customer who claims I made a mistake.

In those rare instances of a confirmed mistake, I often did offer a customer half a refund, and also a 50% off deal on their next order. If that was unacceptable to them, I would probably offer a total refund, but only if I felt the mistake was confirmed by more than the customer checking the sex. I think there was a time (many years ago) that the customer was unhappy for some reason (I think the snake bit him and scared him), and I worked out a deal for him to trade it in to a dealer friend who was working a show near the customer.

If you are unhappy with the seller, you should post on the BOI. But a half refund doesn't sound terrible, although it sticks you with something you don't want. But it also depends on whether the mistake was confirmed by somebody the seller trusts. If you mentioned that earlier, I missed it, and apologize.

 

[Kokopelli]

What was the price of the snake whose sex you discovered the day after it's arrival? and what was the price of the shipping?

That's your guarantee, which is fine.

I, as a human being, know that I cannot at all times sex properly even when I do everything right- if a male decides to fully contract its' muscles, he WILL be sexed as a female- unless I injure him. Mistakes do happen, and since they were not caused by negligence or me not caring.

I wouldn't expect someone else to do that for me either- the seller is doing their best. To demand compensation because they are not omniscient, to me, seems a bit unfair.

 

[Nanci]

Joe had an interesting incident where a customer claimed he had mis-sexed a snake, and returned it, and the snake turned out to have been sexed correctly. I can't remember all the details of how it ever settled out.

Oren, are you asking me what the price of the snake was? A relatively inexpensive snake with important hets. Shipping was probably in the $50-60 range.

 

[Kokopelli]

Joe had an interesting incident where a customer claimed he had mis-sexed a snake, and returned it, and the snake turned out to have been sexed correctly. I can't remember all the details of how it ever settled out.

Oren, are you asking me what the price of the snake was? A relatively inexpensive snake with important hets. Shipping was probably in the $50-60 range.

I did. Kathey simply replied while I was typing.

At any rate, I am a human being who works with a tool that isn't 100% accurate- since the method is faulty to begin with, I don't think it is a logical demand from myself or others to be held accountable because of a fluke.
That's just me though.

 

[CaptBogart]

Joe had an interesting incident where a customer claimed he had mis-sexed a snake, and returned it, and the snake turned out to have been sexed correctly. I can't remember all the details of how it ever settled out.

Yeah, it was 2 years later, so I got it back as a breeding loan, and it turned out to be sexed correctly. I still have her and will keep her an extra year so I can fit her into an actual plan...I had a nice female picked out for her this year too, lol...

 

[CaptBogart]

Oh, but I did have a PayPal dispute where I ordered a bunch of stickers and was told it would take at least a week to cut, then 3-5 days to ship, so I waited patiently, and after 2 1/2 weeks, I contacted them and received an email a couple days later saying they were behind schedule and had to finish up an order before the dies were exchanged to cut mine with another 2 weeks wait. I waited another 2 1/2 weeks and still nothing. I tried to contact them leaving messages on their phone, and an email with no return reply. I submitted a dispute with PayPal and they told me that I had to file a dispute within 30 days of purchase, or it was then my problem.

So, long story short, I purchased the .net version of their website and posted my experience and an email for anyone else that had issues with them and sent them the link. They responded real quick, sent my stickers, refunded my money, and bought their website that I put up for auction... I guess they learned the hard way not to rip off a geek...

 

[RobStevens]

I have in the past sent out a wrongly sexed snake.In these cases i would send out a replacement for free and eat the shipping.Most people would be happy in that situation.
I wouldn't be happy either if i got something that i didn't order and there was no recourse for me.
To sugget that Terri sell the male to recoup her money is absurd.
I myself would post some of this correspondense on the BOI,but thats just me.
Terri is far to nice for that,as we all know.
BTW,Snows have clear bellies.You can see the Hemi Penis through the skin :awcrap:

 

[Nanci]

If someone "makes it right" in the case of a mis-sexed snake, the person on the receiving end will have happy memories of the interaction and will possibly buy many more snakes in the future, and even if they don't need more snakes, will be happy to refer their friends to that breeder. If someone cheaps out and leaves the customer unsatisfied, they have at the very least lost that customer forever, plus everyone that customer ever talks to, plus people who read the BOI.

 

[Tavia]

My dad was in sells for about 10 years. They had a study they liked to use in training to the affect that a satisfied customer will typically tell between 10 to 20 people about their transaction but an unhappy customer will tell upwards of 500 people about their experience.

 

[Kokopelli]

Well, I am aware of the "slogans" quoted nowdays in regards to customer service et cetera.

However- sorry, in order to make a customer happy, there is a certain limit where I simply draw the line. People will find, if they look hard enough, reasons to be unsatisfied.

As far as I am concerned, the seller offered a 50% compensation+ have the buyer keep the snake. I am sorry, that should make customers satisfied- that is not avoiding responsibility. However, the expectation that the seller should end up losing money (meaning that he is paying from his own money more than he got to begin with) is decadent and inconsiderate. It's a knee-jerk reaction of nonacceptance because the customer didn't receive exactly what he wants- but I do not believe it is rational to refuse such an offer, I would go as far as to say that it is petty.

As far as I am concerned, private breeders are not like major corporations. I will not insist on causing a loss to the seller just because a very human mistake was made. You can say that you would have done this and that, and that's fine. But I have to admit that I, as a seller, wouldn't want to deal with a person who would have refused to accept an apology and a compensation such as this.
If that's the level people have reached - a point where there's no acceptance to something which was not caused intentionally, but a mistake that WILL happen according to statistics because we are still working with a non-accurate method... that's a damn shame.

In a case where there was obvious negligence, or a mistake in the number of snakes/morph- things that are in the breeder's absolute control, than yes, he should correct it.
But I don't see why a person's request to try and sell the snake is outrageous- have we become -that- spoiled and unforgiving?

I don't know about you, but I had companies and people with whom I dealt, make mistakes- I -never- forced their arm to a point where they need to lose money because of stubbornness.

Yes, I am a customer, and yes, he is the seller- but we are also human beings. And if we reached a point where we would rather see the other lose out of spite... we might as well throw in the towel.

P.S- the exact same thing can be said about the medical field- law suits being filed against medical personal because the results they got were not what people expected- with utter disregard to the fact that the doctor, or the vet, or whoever, honestly did their best.
Human beings are imperfect by definition, and to try to torch a person's reputation because he did such a human mistake is, as far as I am concerned, nothing short of revolting.

 

[Nanci]

Oren- I'm not saying the customer is (or should be) _forcing_ the seller to go to extreme measures. I'm saying that some sellers voluntarily _will_ go to extreme measures because it is important to have a satisfied customer. Even at a loss. And that that generosity will be repaid a hundredfold in repeat business/referrals.

 

[Kokopelli]

Oren- I'm not saying the customer is (or should be) _forcing_ the seller to go to extreme measures. I'm saying that some sellers voluntarily _will_ go to extreme measures because it is important to have a satisfied customer. Even at a loss. And that that generosity will be repaid a hundredfold in repeat business/referrals.

That is entirely based on the scale of business, income, and ability. If big companies such as Amazon do not go out of their way to do so- there's a very good reason- because it will cause a loss.

You refer to this as a one time thing, which may, or may not be the case- you -can- end up wrongly sexing several snakes, for several different people- and then what?

It's very romantic and generally, that approach is taught to customer service representatives- when you're a business though, the point is to make a profit- and if you end up doing that for every customer, you will find yourself bankrobbed easily and quickly.
I also believe it's a very optimistic, but largely unrealistic, to think that every satisfied customer -will- buy more. The fact that a mistake was made to begin with is, in many cases, enough to thwart said person from dealing with you again.

Nanci, you say that for certain customers, it could be beneficial to incur a loss for the benefit of future dealings, and that's fine. However, the OP pretty much suggested that a 50% refund+keeping the snake is not enough, and others went so far as to encourage her to pretty much ruin his good name by spreading this allegedly "horrifying experience" which will hurt the seller.

So yes, it would be a very nice thing of the seller to do, and at times, beneficial- but to expect or demand that the seller does that for me? and over -this- kind of a mistake? absolutely not.