Reptile breeding ethics

[Daenerys]

So someone posted this question on a rat forum and I was actually surprised that I had never really thought about it myself. I really didn't know the best way to answer this question, so I was wondering if anyone here had a good way of answering it:

I just want to start out by saying that my questions about this are sincere. I'm not here to make accusations, though I apologize if some things I say come off that way. This is something I truly do not understand and have been wondering about this for quite some time.

There is a similar opinion on breeding from almost everyone on this board. We all hate the thought of puppy mills and backyard breeders producing mass amounts of dogs, cats, rats, guinea pigs, hamsters, ferrets, and nearly any other type of mammal. We all know that this mass production leads to an overabundance of these animals in rescues. When it comes to rats, we stress the importance of numerous things before starting to breed. We suggest getting in contact with established breeders to understand the processes behind legitimate breeding. We suggest a sincere reason for wanting to breed, and we try to dissuade people from wanting to breed for neat colors and cute babies. We suggest a strong understanding of genetics before beginning to breed. This prevents rats from being produced with higher instances of known genetic diseases and higher predisposition for suspected genetic diseases. This is the reason why we are so strongly against breeding pet store rats, since their backgrounds are not known. In general, for educated animal lovers, breeders (whether they are dog, cat, rat, or whatever) need to have a long list of credentials before we consider adopting from them. We do this to protect ourselves and to protect our animals, and to make an effort to stop breeders who don't follow our "rules" or have these credentials.

My question here is about reptile breeders. I will fully admit that I don't know much about any reptiles, other than very basics (nearly all reptiles lay eggs [aren't there like 1 or 2 species of snakes that live-birth?], most or all eat stuff like bugs or small animals, they are cold blooded so they need warmth, etc). I want to know how reptile breeding differs from mammal breeding, in terms of politics. From what I have gathered both from this thread and in real life, reptile breeding doesn't seem to be as strict as other types of breeding. Or that anyone who wants to can breed their snakes or lizards or whatever, and no one seems to ask "Who did you study under? What's their pedigree? etc" Or that it seems to be OK that some people, from what I can see, really do breed for pretty colors or interesting markings. How is that OK, when it severely frowned upon in the mammal-breeding world? Is it not much of an issue to take an animal with an unknown background and breed it because it looks cool, unlike the problems it would cause if you did that with a dog or a rat? Do reptiles just not have the same genetic problems that mammals have? I know mammals and reptiles are very different, but I find it hard to think that there might be less genetic issues in reptiles than there are in dogs or cats.

Hopefully both reptile and mammal breeders can talk to me about this. Right now, it just seems that there is certain sets of rules for the two categories of animals when it comes to breeding and I want to find out why that is.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

Well, dogs and cats, for instance, have been domesticated for quite some time now. There have been hundreds, if not thousands of generations, plenty of time for all of these defects to start showing up.

With reptiles, keeping and breeding them, is a fairly new (from a historical viewpoint) endeavor. I don't really know that one could even consider any of them domesticated, at least not in the same sense as cats/dogs/mice/etc.

And with cats and dogs, they were rapidly bred for specific looks or functions which resulted in a lot of inbreeding and concentrating of undesirable genetic traits.

I imagine that with reptiles, if one were to continue to inbreed and several hundred generations from now, we might start to see some similar issues. There is stargazing in corns, and kinking in caramel bps, that I know of as being genetic. Frequently you see people who sell these morphs advertising "non stargazing (or kinking) lines" to indicate their stock is free of these genetic defects.

But I have no doubt that as we continue to breed more and more generations of reptiles, we will start to see issues pop up. And if that is the case, then you might start to see some of the same issues coming up with reptile breeders that you see with mammal breeders.

Sorry for the long post, just my 2¢.

 

[Daenerys]

Oh your post wasn't too long, but very helpful! I didn't even think of how long they had been domesticated, it seems so obvious now that you mentioned it!

 

[VickyChaiTea]

There is not an overwhelming overabundance of reptiles like there is of mammals. There are thousands and thousands of mammals being euthanized every day because people are breeding too many and not giving them good homes. That is not the case with reptiles. In fact, there are plenty of species that are barely in the pet trade, simply because they are so uncommon.

So in short, there is not an overpopulation problem like there is in the mammal world. That's not to say that there aren't reptiles in need of adoption, or to say that there isn't a growing amount of common reptiles that need to be bred less. (leopard geckos, bearded dragons, burms) It's just not as bad as mammals.

I would like to point out that we, as a community, should NEVER let overpopulation get as bad as it is for cats and dogs. I think it is a breeders responsibility to give/sell their snakes to good homes, and it is the owners responsibility to give that snake a home for the rest of it's life.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

The market for corn snakes is really bad right now because there are so many out there, which is one reason I limit myself to 3 or 4 clutches a year. It's just a hobby to me, I can take care of that many for a while and slowly sell them at shows or online. But I see breeders bigger than me produce like 20+ clutches of corns and then at the end of the year there is invariably a post in the for sale section where prices have been slashed for all those leftover snakes that they want to move while it's still safe to ship. Seriously if the market keeps the way it is I feel we are going to have to do something, not sure what can be done though.

 

[pridecity]

I agree with Jen. Instead of breeding all the snakes for test breeding this next season like I wanted, I'm going to focus on the three or four morphs that I want to get into - gold dust stripes, opals/opal motleys, and plasmas (possibly lavenders too). As for the "standards" with other animals, I think that maybe in the future reptiles breeders will start to develop do's and don'ts. So far, our only standards seem to be not to breed snakes that have known physical or mental problems such as kinks, star gazing, or congenital diseases that would compromise the health of the animal and offspring.

I do wonder sometimes why we don't breed for nature/personality as well. I've seen cage aggressive snakes and don't see any reason to breed a snake that is aggressive. I know there is a percentage of reptile owners who want an aggressive snake, but I see no reason for it. It's like the pit bull thing - a status symbol - and I don't like it.

 

[Jessicat]

I think one of the major problems is that every reptile hobbyist seems to set out and have aspirations to be a breeder. I've been keeping snakes for 6 years now, and I have not bred my corn snakes. I may in the future, but it's something that I am somewhat weary of, something that I want to ease myself into. I have just never really felt ready.

It kind of pains me to see new users with one snake talk about their breeding projects, or when someone who's just joined last month has a name of "cornsnakebreeder" or "corns4sale". It's probably because we have so many successful breeders on this site that hatch out such beautiful animals..

Perhaps we should start sending more of a "not every corn snake keeper needs to be a breeder" message. There's definitely a problem with how to regulate people breeding corns though.

One thing I do know though, is that the reputable breeders definitely attract me much more than someone whose maybe been keeping snakes for a year or two and has a clutch. I know who I'm going to turn to when I want a snake of quality.

On a more positive note about reptile breeding, our hobby is hard to compare to mammal breeding projects because of the difference in care and keep of reptiles vs. mammals. It's just not manageable to own a large group of dogs unless you run a kennel or something. In the reptile world it's not odd for a hobbyist to own anywhere from 20-100 snakes. I'm not sure what the average number of snakes is in everyone's collections, but my point is that when reptile breeders breed, we can usually count on people who already own a large group of reptiles to buy more reptiles.
Dog and cat breeders might not have that luxury, because owning 5 dogs is NOT as easy as owning 1 dog. They need to find individual homes for every puppy they have. This is not necessarily the same for us snake keepers/breeders.

 

[Allalaskan]

I had 2 neighbors that had sled dog teams. One of them had 30 dogs the other had 50 and Feeding them alone took a full income. I still have alot to learn when it comes to snakes but being an owner of dogs I can tell you the dogs and cats take alot more work. And I know Up here we have a few "puppy mills" that have proven to produce dogs that are full of genetic problums. I know one guy whos dog needed to be put down before it turned 2 (German Shephard) years old because the dogs hip problums that the vet said that there was no hope for the dog to ever stand let alone walk again.

As far as breeding snakes, I have thought about it and one day may but if I do it will be for my own pleasure not for any sort of income. IF I do chances are it wouldnt be but a few times Unless I sold enuph locally to be worth doing but I doubt it. Atm Im just focusing on making sure im taking proper care of my snake and keeping him healthy. I would rather never breed and have good healthy animals then try and attempt to breed sick animals that I dont know much about and loose one or more.

How ever I do want another one haha. I have really been enjoying myself so far and I can see now how people can have so many snakes. I really want to get another one come this spring. Im thinking an Anery or lavander, But we will see. First I need to build the viv I want to make (built to house 2 snakes) and get it all prepared and I want to wait till then so I can be sure im doing things properly with Seth first. Not to make Seth sound like a guinea pig or any thing but you get my point.

 

[Hypancistrus]

I do wonder sometimes why we don't breed for nature/personality as well. I've seen cage aggressive snakes and don't see any reason to breed a snake that is aggressive. I know there is a percentage of reptile owners who want an aggressive snake, but I see no reason for it. It's like the pit bull thing - a status symbol - and I don't like it.

I agree with this. We have several snakes that we consider "not-breedable
because their tempers are so poor. Why risk the possibility of that being an inheritable condition??

But yeah. We have not bred anything other than our cresties pair. Both babies are still with us. We're not good at selling and are very picky about who gets our animals. Sitting at a show and selling them for $35 for the first person to offer is not our cup of tea... I worry too much about where they'd end up (and with good reason, honestly)

 

[Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)]

Not everyone wants to breed snakes. I don't, for one. As someone who has worked with mammals all of my life, including in vets' offices and animal shelters, I've seen too many lives thrown away because no one wanted them--and I was one of those people who had to do the euthanizing. It scarred me for life. Perfectly wonderful animals. Purebreds as well as mutts, young, old and in between. I don't want to be ANY part of that problem when it comes to any species, including snakes. So I have a large pack of altered dogs, a large flock of non-mated macaws, and a pretty good collection of snakes who won't ever be asked by me to reproduce.

I often wonder what happens to all the excess "normal" corns and BPs, etc., who no one wants? Are their only futures doomed to be feeder animals for other creatures? Thrown into a freezer or released into the wild? For an animal who was bred to be someone's pet, it seems like a particularly sad way to spend--and end--a life. I don't want any part of that.

So I don't breed. I have no dreams of discovering/making something new and more desirable. I'll just enjoy the animals I have, and hope that not everyone who owns snakes wants nothing more than to breed them. Sometimes, it's ok to have "just" a pet, or "just" a display animal, isn't it?

 

[oneirogenesis]

I'm with you, Mrs. Z and I'm glad for this forum because there are quite a few people here who keep snakes as "just pets". Sometimes I feel a bit like a minority in the reptile-keeping community because I have no interest in breeding my pets, so it's nice that there are people on here I can relate to.

I don't know much about pricing for rodents/small animals, but I'm wondering if they fetch as much money as reptiles do; mice and rats are certainly not expensive animals in my experience. Is it possible that there just isn't as much of an investment value in breeding small mammals? I'm not trying to suggest that people only breed reptiles for money, but money certainly helps to cover the cost of your hobby.

 

[bitsy]

I was warned by my local reptile shop at the start of the season that they couldn't take any of my hatchlings this year. Too late to prevent eggs being produced, but each clutch went straight into the freezer. I have no wish to produce baby snakes that have little or no chance of ending up in homes that will value them. I don't want to send animals out into the world that risk ending up being viewed as "disposable" because they cost so little to replace if they die.

I have to say, I think I've enjoyed owning Corns much more this year than in previous years. Although I wasn't spared the worry over my breeding females, I didn't have the subsequent rush of hatchlings, non-feeding stress etc over the summer, which is turning out to be one of my busiest times for study and work.

It's nice to just sit back and relax, with the most onerous task being the occasional re-vamp of a viv or some new hides. I'll certainly think twice before breeding again.

 

[Kronos]

I'm with you, Mrs. Z and I'm glad for this forum because there are quite a few people here who keep snakes as "just pets". Sometimes I feel a bit like a minority in the reptile-keeping community because I have no interest in breeding my pets, so it's nice that there are people on here I can relate to.

I'm another one with no interest in breeding. I'm sure it's very rewarding, but it's got to be a LOT of work. And stress. Plus, I'm not sure what I would do with the hatchlings - probably just end up keeping them. I just got my first hatchling a month ago, and although it's doing very well, I think I prefer to start with yearlings.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

It is rewarding, and that is why I am not sure what would be a good way to go about reducing the number of unwanted/cheap corns out there. And corn snakes are just easy to breed too, so many clutches come about because people don't know they have a male and a female and cohabitate.
I do not want to tell somebody else not to do something that I enjoy so much myself. I just wish people would put a bit of research into things like their local market, what morphs might be more in demand, whether they have any local shows or a pet store that might take their hatchlings. All we can really do is educate people if they are willing to listen...

 

[Nanci]

On a more positive note about reptile breeding, our hobby is hard to compare to mammal breeding projects because of the difference in care and keep of reptiles vs. mammals. It's just not manageable to own a large group of dogs unless you run a kennel or something. In the reptile world it's not odd for a hobbyist to own anywhere from 20-100 snakes. I'm not sure what the average number of snakes is in everyone's collections, but my point is that when reptile breeders breed, we can usually count on people who already own a large group of reptiles to buy more reptiles.
Dog and cat breeders might not have that luxury, because owning 5 dogs is NOT as easy as owning 1 dog. They need to find individual homes for every puppy they have. This is not necessarily the same for us snake keepers/breeders.

And the breeding lifetime of snakes is much longer than dogs/cats/rats. you can have a beautiful collection of all genetic variations, and if you choose not to breed some or all of them for a year, two years, five years- you haven't missed out on the reproductive period for those animals. You don't have a time pressure to use them before they expire!

 

[Hypancistrus]

I do not want to tell somebody else not to do something that I enjoy so much myself. I just wish people would put a bit of research into things like their local market, what morphs might be more in demand, whether they have any local shows or a pet store that might take their hatchlings. All we can really do is educate people if they are willing to listen...

I think it's amazing how often we Americans say "There ought to be a law against that" in situations where PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (or lack thereof) is really the key issue. I am not a fan of laws. I favor a bare minimum of laws in order to keep society running smoothly. But personal responsibility is a MUST and it's simply not being taught or passed on these days, and adults who were taught it by hard working depression era parents are losing it because of the constant chorus of "It's not my fault" that we hear streaming from the media and celebrity rags.

Michael Vick, fighting pit bulls? It's not his fault-- he was born in the ghetto and had different cultural values.

Ben Roethlisberger gets caught with his pants down with a college chick? Not his fault-- it was a misunderstanding and women are out to get his money anyway.

Converted Islamist tries to blow up a Maryland Army recruiting office? It's not his fault-- the FBI and local police "entrapped" him.

Lindsay Lohan, driving intoxicated for the 18th time? It's not her fault-- she has a "disease" and "needs help."

It's never anyone's fault... no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions or inactions. I am far from perfect, but I take full responsibility for the things I've screwed up in my life, and the decisions and choices I've made.

If you allow your animals to breed, you bear some responsibility for the future lives of the young creatures produced. I know we've rehashed this argument in the past, but if you breed 35 baby retics or burms, you are responsible for who they are sold to (within reason). It's your decision to bring them into the world, and I feel that by making that decision, you are then responsible for ensuring appropriate homes for them-- not simply dumping them off on a reseller at a herp show or on the local pet store. With corns, it's a little less extreme because there's a lot more folks that can handle a pet corn snake as opposed to a giant, but still... you take the initiative to make them, you should be responsible enough to ensure that they go to great homes, not just the most convenient dumping point.

I currently have four slider turtles for adoption. I've allowed one person to adopt a pair, after being very impressed with the set up he had constructed and his knowlege of turtle care. I've turned down three or four other people who were either underage or didn't have the resources to care for them properly (from my opinion based on frank discussions of the matter).

I could easily have "unloaded" these animals on these other people who wanted them, and be done with caring for them.... but I feel a responsibility to them and to my hobby to ensure that they find the very best homes with people in a good situation to house and care for them for life. There's never a guarantee, of course, but anything less than my best effort on that front isn't good enough.

 

[ratsncorns]

I have recently begun to reevaluate what I want to do as far as breeding. There are so many corns out there it's a tough market for those who can't invest in high end corns and end up with a lot of cheap normal corns in their first year or three of breeding. I get a lot of enjoyment out of the ones I have though so I am thinking more and more of just keeping what I have and selling those I got for breeding projects. And getting into other types of snakes just as pets.

 

[Hypancistrus]

I get a lot of enjoyment out of the ones I have though so I am thinking more and more of just keeping what I have and selling those I got for breeding projects. And getting into other types of snakes just as pets.

We did that about a year ago when we decided breeding wasn't for us. We have a higher total number of snakes now (35 or so?) but we are much, much happier with our results.

Side note: If you decide to rehome the silver boy in your profile... send him our way. He's far too... homely... to put on the open market.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

No matter how careful you are placing your snake babies in homes you feel are acceptable, if the person you sell them to decides to breed them how are you going to ensure those babies go to good homes?
Most new morphs and combos, which are what seems to keep people investing in our hobby, involve a lot of non-target animals, especially at the start of a project in an F1 clutch- the het and poss het this and that that are visually just normals. Many breeders wholesale these, especially if they have a project they want to keep a secret. When you see that new exciting Quad homo $500+ corn snake, there have been a ton of other snakes produced in order to get to that point. Ethical or not...
And what if a person's hobby is breeding king snakes, and they are raising the corns as feeders? Many of us raise mice as feeders. Ethical or not...
I guess there's just too many variables to come up with any kind of "law" of reptile ethics.

 

[tyflier]

Haven't read the other replies, but...

Here is my $.02...

First you have to take into consideration that the majority of mammals being bred in the pet trade or by hobbyists have already been line bred for hundreds of generations to get where they are today. Guinea pigs, chinchillas, rats, mice, hamsters, etc. all have long line histories of captive breeding, and of course dogs and cats go back for a thousand years. Reptiles have only been widely captive bred since the late 1960's, and in most cases wild lineages were still being caught and imported up until the 80's, 90's and even today, which creates diversity in the genepool.

Secondly, the physiological malfunctions associated with poor breeding are different. Dogs have neurological disorders, hip displasia, and all manner of "acceptable" diseases, and so do most other mammals. The list of unacceptable diseases is even longer. Reptiles have diseases and mutations as well, but they aren't nearly as proliferate, likely due to the history. With that said, most breeders that I have spoken with are incredibly careful about choosing which animals to breed and avoiding genetic deficiencies such as kinks, stargazing, etc.

Lastly, the original question mentioned having an understanding of basic genetics before breeding. Truthfully, if someone DOES have a basic understanding of genetics, then that individual should realize that simple recessive traits are very easy to outcross and recover, broadening the genepool, and helping to prevent inbreeding and mutations. Most reptiles morphs are simple recessive in nature, making it very easy to reproduce over and over adnauseum without really causing detriment or harm to the genepool.

Just my humble take on things...