Some People... (rant!)

[yellowbellyhippy]

Celebrate Diversity.

hooo yaaa doing a dance!!!!

 

[kathylove]

The debate has stayed interesting, lol!

I am not sure why some seem so intense, since it doesn't SEEM like there is a real need to convince anyone that they should, or should not, eat meat. Seems like there is room for everyone to follow their own convictions, or needs.

I do see a lot of good points on both sides. As an old "Mother Earth News" fan, I feel that small scale, organic rotations of crops and livestock can really benefit each other, as the livestock cleans up uneaten parts of the crop, fertilizes the land, and allows some of the pests to die out while the land is put to pasture for a bit. And I do believe that monocultures, whether a thousand acres of wheat, a thousand head of cattle, or a thousand corns or ball pythons in a relatively small, concentrated area, are not natural, and thus are more difficult to manage. Such concentrations of a species will tend to amass the pests or microbes that specifically attack the plant or animal in question, and may require more medications or pest treatments than would be needed in a more diversified, or rotational plan of production.

I read an article once about a medium sized farm (I think it might have been over 100 acres, but not more than a couple of times that size), and I think it was in Va, or near that area. It is an organic farm that rotates chickens and other livestock in a planned fashion throughout its crop fields, producing both organic veggies and meat. From what I read, I think both their land and their products are probably superior to what most (not all!) of us eat most of the time. But it does come at a price. Their products are "handmade", in a manner of speaking, and are more expensive than products from the vast monocultures that provide most of our food the cheapest way possible (cheap in the short run, anyway).

We all make choices of how to use our limited resources. And in an economic downturn, the choices are even more difficult. Of course, if you were willing and able to get fresh, wild game, and fresh, wild, greens, nuts, berries, etc, from a relatively unpolluted area, that would also be a bonus to whatever you decide.

All I would ask anyone is that they research the choices available, and the pros and cons of each, and then make their own decisions for themselves and their families, based on research, logic, and personal preferences. As long as some thought was given to the choice, I am comfortable whether it involves meat eating, veganism, raising your own veggies or chickens, or just going to the grocery store as most others do. The people I fell sorry for are those who blindly go to the grocery store year after year, without thought of any other choice because this is "the way we have always done things." They will never consider anything different because they never even think about the fact that change IS possible, though not ALWAYS desirable.

BTW, somebody questioned the noise factor earlier in the dogs vs. chickens in the suburbs discussion. I guess it depends on the dog in question. But for anyone who has been kept awake by a neighbor's constantly barking dog, the clucking of a few hens next door would probably seem like heaven! They do cluck louder when laying an egg, usually in the morning, but only for a very short time. And they are very quiet once the sun goes down, unless they are being attacked by something. Most of the time, the neighbors probably would not hear them at all. If you keep a rooster, that is totally different. But there is no need to keep a rooster in a subdivision, and disrupt the neighborhood. If you want to raise babies without causing a ruckus, you can buy hatching eggs, or just buy the babies. Move out in the country if you want to keep anything really loud, such as a rooster, or barking dog kept outside. I still say that a half dozen hens would be MUCH less disruptive to the neighborhood than a couple of dogs kept outside, even in a fenced yard.

 

[Roy Munson]

You're wrong!

(Sorry, I just felt like being antagonistic. )

 

[Nanci]

Their porn must suck

Why yes. Yes it does!

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Kathy, I really like the idea about crop/livestock rotation. When you think about it, it makes sense! The cows or other grazers will perfectly clear the land while also fertilizing it for the next crop rotation. It seems like a win-win to me.

As far as chickens vs. dogs, I definitely have to agree that chickens, for the most part, are a LOT quieter than dogs. Except for the roosters. Who do NOT only crow at dawn. They crow whenever they dang well please, including at 2-3am. And every hour that the sun's not up. And then one day, my neighbors' rooster "disappeared" after a rather loud night in the coop. We think a bear was sick and tired of hearing all that racket late at night. :grin01: At least, that's what the tracks suggested!

 

[tyflier]

Well, I weas done with it, but...OK...

Lets cover this point by point

Point one you never said or implied that YBH lack of weight gain is unhealthy.
Your post 116 "How is it "healthy" to maintain the same body weight from early teens to early 30s? Your bone density *should* be increasing. Your musculature *should* be developing. Your body mass *should* be maturing. Bones and muscles weigh a lot. They develop in the mid to late teenage years and into your 20s. You, as a human being, aer supposed to gain weight during this maturation process..."

I didn't call HER abnormal, I said it is not normal for people to gain absolutely no weight between 16 and 32. That IS abnormal. The fact that she is healthy is NOT what normally happens.

And I didn't call her health into question, I asked how is it healthy for a human being to go through 16 years of late adolescence and early adulthood without ANY weight gain? I still don't think that is healthy. Doesn't matter if she, personally, is healthy or not, that particular growth rate is not considered "normal" or "healthy". And YOUR chart SHOWED that.

In the very first sentence you question whether it is healthy for her to have maintained a stable weight all these years, and followed up by telling her what her body should be doing, you know if it where actually healthy and 'normal' as you say. While it certainly seems that you were talking directly to her, I am aware that messageboards can result in things being lost in translation, so despite post 116 I am willing to concede this point to you b/c things on forums can get lost in translation.

Wrong. I questioned whether or not it is healthy for an adult human being to go through late adolescence and early adulthood without gaining ANY weight. I followed up by stating what a "normal" body does.

You and she made it personal...not me...

Point 2 According to you it is abnormal for a person to not gain any weight from 16 onwards.
Well if you want to define normal as what everyone else does then yes you are right it is not 'normal', however normal in those terms would have her obese or at least overweight. Per Wikipedia (which is not my preferred source but I do not have time to dig through my boxes of textbooks) " Should current trends continue, 75% of adults in the United States are projected to be overweight and 41% obese by 2015." Now just because she does not fit this 'normal' mold does not mean that her growth is abnormal or unhealthy. In fact the growth chart I posted in my last post very clearly showed normal growth up unitl age 20 and it showed very clearly that all but very minor height and weight gains cease at around 16 or so. After age 20 they go by BMI to decide what is normal and what is healthy and I already posted the BMI chart as well showing hers as being normal and healthy. So while YBH growth/weight gain may not be like the 'normal' Americans this is due to the rise in obesity not in their being something abnormal about her growth. So yes I am in fact claiming that YBH has had a normal and healthy growth rate. But no I am not claiming that she is growing the way a 'normal' American might, but that is probably a good thing the way things are going.

The definition of "normal" is the standard, average, or median. Average healthy weight gain for a human being between the agwes of 16 and 32...not the morbidly obese, suicide-by-hamburger garbage that happens, but the normal, healthy weight gain of a 16-32 year old person. Don't put words into my mouth...or my posts, as the case may be...

Point 3 I touted that there where benefits and never listed them.

I did say there where some benefits according to the nutrition book and I listed them in post 112. I did not say it was necessarily more beneficial in all ways or even more beneficial overall than a diet that contains meat, I just stated that there are benefits.

My post 112 is where I discussed both *pros*, potential *cons*, and how the book recommends overcoming said cons - here are the pertinent parts

"pro's
"In general vegetarians maintain a healthier body weight than non vegetarians." p209
"Vegetarians tend to have lower blood pressure and lower rates of hypertensions than non begetarians." p209
"The incidence of heart disease and related deaths is much lower for vegetarians than for non vegetarians." p209
"Vegetarians have a significantly lower rate of cancer than the general population." p209
"Even when their intake of energy, protien, carbohydrates, total fat, saturated fat, unsaturated fat, alcohol, and fiber are the same, people eating meals based on tofu have lower blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels than those eating meat." p209
And last but not least "well planned vegetarian diets offer sound nutrition and health benefits" p209

cons
Due to the way the book is set up the cons are not as easily quoted in snippets like I did above. So many apologies but you will all have to make do with me summing them up

The book is most concerned with adequate Iron, calcium, vitamin D, B12 and Zinc, although the books straight up says that these things can all be acquired in sufficient quantities by eating legumes, nuts, seeds, peanut butter, tempeh, tofu, soy milk, and dark green vegetable. p209

Special consideration is given in the book to sensitive times in development.
pregnancy is the first mentioned and the book in that case the worry is about iron energy (kcals). Most pregnant women are given vitamins to take because even meat eating women typically do not have enough iron during pregnancy, and the book feels that is adequate for vegetarian moms to be as well. plus many things provide iron other than meat. p211
Infancy is the next sensitive time, and the book clearly states that a well nourished vegetarian mother provides plenty of nutrition to her nursing baby, and that Soy baby formula also provides appropriate nutrition to babies for mom's who choose that route. p211-212
Childhood/Adolescence is the third sensitive time, the book says that a well planned vegetarian diet can easily provide adequate nutrition intakes for growing children, still I put this in con because obviously when you have a growing child Well Planned cannot be stressed enough. They also say that vegetarian children's growth is similar to that of their non vegetarian peers. p.212

They do say that babies who are switching to solid foods in a vegan family, may grow more slowly due to getting full to soon(because these types of foods tend to be more filling), although even there they list ways to prevent that and the types of more energy dense foods avocado as well as continuing them on infant cereals and soy formula to name just few of the ways to overcome this potential con and to help increase the number of calories they are consuming while they grow.p212

It says that vegan children are sometimes shorter/lighter than their peers due to again getting full before enough calories are consumed, and that vegans can have lower bone density, however they also say that with proper diet planning including fortified cereals, etc the nutritional needs of a child can be meet.p212

The wrap up sentences of the section say "Quite simply, the negative health aspects of any diet (meat/vegetarian/vegan are the ones being addressed), reflect poor diet planning. Careful attention to energy intake and specific problem nutrients can ensure adequacy." p212-213"

Please note again none of these are my opinions they are just the findings of the studies as they have been reported in the nutrition textbook. I listed both the pros and cons because I am truly interested in talking about the facts/figures/meris and nutritional information of this subject.

I don't care. I like meat.

Point 4 You say that he only claims you have made are that you do not know anyone who has been able to be healthy and vegan or vegetarian. This I definitely beg to differ on.

Beg all you want. Doesn't change a thing.

[You said that if everyone where to become vegetarian there would be a DRASTIC (capitalized by you) reduction in global population.

There would be. The majority of the population is not nutritionally educated enough to thrive on a vegan diet without medicinal supplementation. Even with massive education, and forced dietary measures, there would still be a large percentage of the population that would require medicinal and vitam supplements in order to be healthy.

I cite your post 89 last paragraph
"One good thing that would come of it...our global population density would decrease dramatically because quite frankly, we, as omnivorous creatures, simply cannot and will not thrive on a vegetarian diet without supplemental nutritional medication. So if the entire world became vegetarian and/or vegan overnight, we would see a DRASTIC reduction in global population due to malnutrition, immuno-compromise diseases, traumatic injury due to calcium and protein deficiencies, and a HUGE increase in the infant mortality rate. So THAT would be beneficial to the environment, at least..."

All I ever said was that no according to the nutritional information which I have now endlessly provided that is not true. According to the actual nutritional information being a vegetarian or vegan can be a healthy/balanced/complete option without adverse health consequences to most people and that there are some benefits to it. I did not say it was a superior option just that it would not cause a "DRASTIC" decrease in our population.

Yup...with medicinal and vitamin supplements is what you have said...again and again. I read your posts. I don't care. People simply do not have enough knowledge to maintain a healthy vegan diet, globally, without supplementation.

Is it possible? Sure. It's possible that the entire world could wake up and suddenly be so nutritionally smart that we could survive and thrive on a diet of fruits, nuts, veggies, and beans. Is it likely? Nope. We are omnivores. You cannot pass that fact. That's really all there is to it.

Since that point I have also said that yes YBH's growth is considered normal and healthy according to the growth charts and BMI. I have stated that while it may not be sufficiently 'normal' in an American way it is normal in a health way.

I never said her body size or weight was abnormal. Not once. I said that people do not normally go from adolescence to adulthood without ABNY weight gain. And again...that's true.

So just to sum up my points

'Bout time

No becoming vegetarian would not kill off a huge part of our population.

Sure it would. But so you feel better about...I was being sarcastic and tongue in cheek...

Yes YBH's growth is normal and healthy.

Never said it wasn't

Yes there are some benefits to being vegetarian and a vegetarian diet can be complete and healthy.

Never said there wasn't

No that does not mean that being a vegetarian is a superior choice just a different but still perfectly healthy choice when implemented properly.

I know that. Thanks.

 

[Roy Munson]

At least the anoles are quiet, Robbie. It would take a lot of 'em to make a stew, but you have the numbers.

 

[Nanci]

YBH- Chris is tenacious and always armed with facts. I have never seen him be mean, although he can be persistent. I wouldn't argue with him, because he doesn't go there unless he can massively back up his statements.

 

[LBoz]

For the meat eaters among us, c'mon over during the holidays. I'm making my famous pork pie!!

I'll have plenty of vegan choices as well, but you can't tell me this won't make your mouth water!!

 

[RobbiesCornField]

At least the anoles are quiet, Robbie. It would take a lot of 'em to make a stew, but you have the numbers.

:roflmao: Well, we also do have iguanas in the 'Glades! I bet those would make some nice fillets. :grin01:

YBH- Chris is tenacious and always armed with facts. I have never seen him be mean, although he can be persistent. I wouldn't argue with him, because he doesn't go there unless he can massively back up his statements.

What she said.

 

[Roy Munson]

uke02:

Please pass the tofu!

 

[LBoz]

uke02:

Please pass the tofu!

LMAO! A convert! Although considering the fact that you have the palate of a 6 year old, I'm not counting your opinion. :nyah:

(p.s. Remember the crazy Paul Volker paintings we saw in the galleries? I stole this from him. Go figure.)

 

[Nanci]

I had lox and bagels for breakfast Friday. My radiologist said he didn't eat raw meat. He pretty much didn't eat anything without lungs, in fact. I said, "So you'd eat a whale?"

 

[Dinah]

Ty, we already had our Panda porn threat last night, so I am really done with this argument. You say you read my posts, but yet I conceded point one to you, I said that I admit that things can be lost in translation when discussed over the internet and if you say that those quotes which I took from your posts where not intended to be directed specifically at YBH then I believe you. Just a hint, but once a person concedes a point to you, there is no longer a reason to argue that point.

As for the rest of the points, I provided specific documentation, links to the growth charts, etc. I would NEVER call someone wrong without providing evidence to back up what I have said. It seems you do not feel that way, you are happy to call me wrong without any documentation provided. And to be honest I understand that the nature of the internet is such that there are some people who are like that. Everyone on here can read the posts, read my evidence, and read your opinions and rebuttals (I'm sure they would be happy to read your evidence as well but you never cited any). Then I am totally confident that they can make up their own minds, some people really value evidence, and some people prefer to make their decisions based on opinions and speculations and it is up to everyone individually to decide for themselves how they want to make their decisions.

You are welcome to your opinions and you are welcome to make your own decision about your diet. You are even welcome to totally ignore all of the actual evidence that I presented and to call me wrong despite the fact that I provided evidence to back up the things that I said. I am not going to participate in beating what really is a dead horse at this point. I am confident that everyone here has the ability to make these decisions for themselves, and I am confident that those who are truly interested will look at the actual information and sources that were provided.

I have enough confidence in what I say to not have to continue to argue this with you. I am tired of it. I feel like I am on some sort of carousel ride where I present facts/research/links and evidence and you rebut by saying that isn't true because you personally don't consider it normal, or because in your opinion or in your experience with the people you know. I then respond with more research/facts/evidence and you respond back with no that isn't true because you say so. Well you can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep and you cannot convince a person with facts if they are not interested in facts.

Whatever your dietary decisions are I do hope for you much health. Whatever your opinions are I hope they bring you happiness. But I am getting off this carousel now, as I am prone to motion sickness.

 

[Roy Munson]

LMAO! A convert! Although considering the fact that you have the palate of a 6 year old, I'm not counting your opinion. :nyah:

(p.s. Remember the crazy Paul Volker paintings we saw in the galleries? I stole this from him. Go figure.)

Hey, hey. I ate a few slimy mushrooms last weekend...

So you actually MADE that pie? That's crazy. It's impressive as art, but hardly appetizing. :awcrap:

 

[Roy Munson]

I had lox and bagels for breakfast Friday.

Lox can be really good, or really gross. I actually prefer the fakey lox-flavored Philadelphia cream cheese. I don't know if they make it anymore.

 

[LBoz]

Hey, hey. I ate a few slimy mushrooms last weekend...

So you actually MADE that pie? That's crazy. It's impressive as art, but hardly appetizing. :awcrap:

God no, I didn't make that!!! I stole the photo from his FB. Goof! I wouldn't eat it, either, but I was trying to introduce some levity into the thread since panda porn seems to have lost its effect.

 

[TandJ]

Some ole *bleep* rattled off with this nonsense... *LOL*

I wouldn't eat it, either, but I was trying to introduce some levity into the thread since panda porn seems to have lost its effect.

This ole tard will respond with:

The pie was nasty looking... Even for this ole meat chomper... But hey, while I was waiting for Stephen yesterday, I managed to gobble down a double Buffalo Burger, and that was pretty tastey this time..

Lori, it is truely sad that loveable cuddle panda's had to go as far as panda porn to get people to stop argueing, but its not effective any more... I sure hope that we don't have to get panda orgies posted to make people laugh..

I say give it 7 days... Most people forget most things after 7 .. I think, or was it 5? Oh man... I don't remember... Speaking of which, what was I posting about?

Oh well, forgetfully Tim of T and J

 

[yellowbellyhippy]

YBH- Chris is tenacious and always armed with facts. I have never seen him be mean, although he can be persistent. I wouldn't argue with him, because he doesn't go there unless he can massively back up his statements.

Ya, but his "facts" are outdated. Ah well, some people just don't get it. And Im proud to say I didn't get fat between 16 and 32. Im healthier for it!

 

[Dinah]

1. Your right on there, it is our professional occupation to farm.

2. Well our "employees" consist of myself, my mom, my dad, and my grandma.

3. My mom home schools me with an online school, but still manages to work as at a hospital as an RN.

I hope the best for you family's farm. I think it is wonderful when a family is able to work together, I really think it can have the ability to really keep the family connected and close. I'm sure you saw in my post that we home school also. So howdy fellow homeshooler. I am in college as an education major and hope to be able to do portfolio evaluations (I am not sure if you have to do those in your state but in FL they are required) and tutoring and other homeschooling support service once I graduate. It is great meeting everyone.